58 replies to this topic

[SGT Unther]

@Tex I wasn't offended at all. I'm just believer that endo steel is not a prefect in every case. When it comes to assault mechs if you are going to purchase an upgrade for an Assault mech, Double Heat Sinks are at the top of my list because in just about every case it yields better weight savings than Endo and FF combined.

I think the Awesome will make a comeback when we have drop weights to worry about in Community Warfare, that's if they do put in drop weight limitations for missions.

[Vlad Ward]

Totally random tangent, but I'm starting to wonder how Smurfy-net is calculating their Max Sustained DPS number.

Jaded's AWS-8R has the exact same guns (in smaller quantities) and fewer heatsinks than my STK-5S, but has a higher "Max Sustained DPS." That is literally un-possible.

AWS-8R vs STK-5S

Ravennus, on 17 January 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

That's actually my exact 3F build. I chose the 3F because it was identical in hardpoints to the 5S but with substantially better torso twist range.
I still like the 5S, but I use the dual AMS as that is it's stand-out feature.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.

Whoa.

Whoa.

The STK-3F has a better twist range than the STK-5S? (You can tell I've been out of the loop for a couple weeks)

[Ravennus]

Vlad Ward, on 17 January 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

Totally random tangent, but I'm starting to wonder how Smurfy-net is calculating their Max Sustained DPS number.

Jaded's AWS-8R has the exact same guns (in smaller quantities) and fewer heatsinks than my STK-5S, but has a higher "Max Sustained DPS." That is literally un-possible.

AWS-8R vs STK-5S

I believe the key is max SUSTAINED DPS.

His awesome build has half as many medium lasers than your build.
Even though you have 3 more DHS, the idea with that calculation.... is that if you were both standing still and firing alpha strikes non-stop at something and landing every hit, what would your DPS be when heat was factored in?
With 3 extra MLAS, I think you would overheat before he would, so he would get a few more shots in while you were powered down.


In action this almost never happens though, and your are right.... your build would likely put out more damage if played correctly.

Vlad Ward, on 17 January 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.

Whoa.

Whoa.

The STK-3F has a better twist range than the STK-5S? (You can tell I've been out of the loop for a couple weeks)

Yuppers!

Check Smurfy's stats for the 3F. It has an 85 degree Torso Twist range opposed to the 60 degrees of all the other Stalker models. That is it's unique advantage and why I like it for the up close brawler builds.

Edited by Ravennus, 17 January 2013 - 05:27 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Ravennus, on 17 January 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

I believe the key is max SUSTAINED DPS.

His awesome build has half as many medium lasers than your build.
Even though you have 3 more DHS, the idea with that calculation.... is that if you were both standing still and firing alpha strikes non-stop at something and landing every hit, what would your DPS be when heat was factored in?
With 3 extra MLAS, I think you would overheat before he would, so he would get a few more shots in while you were powered down.


In action this almost never happens though, and your are right.... your build would likely put out more damage if played correctly.

That's what I mean. I think they're assuming some sort of Alpha-only whosits in their calculations, which makes no sense in a sustainable DPS model. Running the calculations myself, it seems the STK-5S's maximum sustained DPS is closer to 9.52. All faith is lost .

But yes, you were saying about torso twists? I hadn't heard this before so I just want to confirm this is for real before I re-buy a 3F.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 17 January 2013 - 05:33 PM.

[Ravennus]

Vlad Ward, on 17 January 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

But yes, you were saying about torso twists? I hadn't heard this before so I just want to confirm this is for real before I re-buy a 3F.

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/

Just scroll down until you get to the Stalker variants.
Smurfy includes the various ranges of the torso and arms in the list, all of which is compiled from the game files.
3F gets 85 degrees.

Vlad Ward, on 17 January 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

That's what I mean. I think they're assuming some sort of Alpha-only whosits in their calculations, which makes no sense in a sustainable DPS model. Running the calculations myself, it seems the STK-5S's maximum sustained DPS is closer to 9.52. All faith is lost .

Why is your faith lost? I don't understand.
How are you running your calculations?

[DeathGuardOO14]

Haven't tried this (not activating this account yet), but it's similar to what I used to great effect in closed beta.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...71fab76c775d616

Since others are talking about them... My current 3F that I like a fair bit.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...33a622880a32324

Edited by DeathGuardOO14, 17 January 2013 - 05:56 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Ravennus, on 17 January 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

Why is your faith lost? I don't understand.
How are you running your calculations?

Sustainable DPS is easy, especially since SRMs and MLs fire on the same cycle. Quad SRM6 and 6MLs generate 16+24=40 heat every time they fire. A mech with 22 DHS and Master level efficiencies dissipates [ (0.2 * 10) + (0.14 * 12) ] * 1.15 = 4.23 heat per second.

It takes (40/4.23) or 9.45 seconds to dissipate the heat generated by an Alpha. An Alpha does 90 damage. 90 Damage every 9.45 seconds is ~9.52 DPS.

[Ravennus]

Hmm, don't know what to tell you. You'll have to talk to Smurfy about his DPS calculations then.

Either way, I've found that DPS calculations in any game are largely impractical... and especially in this game.
I don't doubt that you would get a lot more DPS with your build if played right, as I said before.

I definitely recommend the 3F though, if you aren't using those 2 AMS spots on the 5S. Did you find the info on Smurfy's website?

[Vlad Ward]

Ravennus, on 17 January 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

Hmm, don't know what to tell you. You'll have to talk to Smurfy about his DPS calculations then.

Either way, I've found that DPS calculations in any game are largely impractical... and especially in this game.
I don't doubt that you would get a lot more DPS with your build if played right, as I said before.

I definitely recommend the 3F though, if you aren't using those 2 AMS spots on the 5S. Did you find the info on Smurfy's website?

Indeed I did! Thanks for the heads up. I just finished kitting out my new STK-3F and am very much enjoying my extra 50 degrees of twist.

[Jaded Jasper]

Vlad Ward, on 17 January 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

Being a major proponent of the Awesome chassis myself, I'm loathe to ask this, but is there any particular reason (aside from personal preference, of course) to use this 8R over, say, a Stalker? Is it just torso twist range?

I've got a Stalker S with SRMs and MLs myself, and I actually like the awesome better:
- More maneuverable, and easier to ambush with.
- Awesomes can effectively arm block.
- The Stalker's 60' torso twist range is a /huge/ problem when brawling, though the Stalker F doesn't have this issue.
- Extra module slot is nice, although the Awesome-R also only has one. :-(
- The Stalker S I tried had trouble mounting Artemis SRMs, and I had to drop down to two SRM 6s and two 4s to make everything fit.
- I find it easier to leg Stalkers than Awesomes -- those stodgy legs are huge!

I don't do nearly as well with the Stalker S, though I have yet to try an F which might be better due to its 85' increase torso twist range.

[Jaded Jasper]

Vlad Ward, on 17 January 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

Totally random tangent, but I'm starting to wonder how Smurfy-net is calculating their Max Sustained DPS number.

Jaded's AWS-8R has the exact same guns (in smaller quantities) and fewer heatsinks than my STK-5S, but has a higher "Max Sustained DPS." That is literally un-possible.

AWS-8R vs STK-5S

That's likely just because it's assuming you're firing all your medium lasers. Were you to back off on the lasers and still fire the SRMs full time you'd do better due to more sinks of course.

On the other hand:
- Artemis isn't accounted for, and it definitely increases your punch -- missiles hitting spots that don't kill are effectively wasted. I'd guess that's probably worth a couple of MLs (Maybe 30 damage to the center component hit instead of 20?) and ammo saved to boot.

- There's enough punch with either that brawls are typically over before heat is much of an issue, so the extra your 36.8 dissipation vs. my 32.6 helps but isn't huge.

- Honestly speaking, you're firing 6xML fairly frequently, aren't you? I know I do in my STalker anyway! If you do it even once it eats into your long term DPS. Though the punch and range is often worth it of course!

[Hex Pallett]

Ain't no braggin' but I kinda figured this build out quite a while ago

Edited by Helmstif, 18 January 2013 - 12:17 AM.

[TexAce]

I had the Stalker 5S and tried the same exact build as on my TX-1 and really couldn't make it work.
I HATED the torso twist (range as well as speed), the thing was creepy slow. And I can dodge incoming attacks greatly with the arms on my Awesome. Plus the arms give you even more twist range to shoot. The awesome is just more agile. Gave up the S and kept the awesome.
I know the F has better torso twist but I think it's still not enough to beat my awesome (with the same setup).
I'm not saying the Stalker is a bad mech, it just didn't feel that good in this setup.

Edited by TexAss, 18 January 2013 - 03:42 AM.

[Ranzear]

It's like a PPC cat and a flak cat had a baby with a growth deficiency.

[Tremendous Upside]

Ranzear, on 18 January 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

It's like a PPC cat and a flak cat had a baby with a growth deficiency.

Tons of firepower for sure - but only 16 "full" shots till you drop from 80 to 20 pt alphas... Better make em all count .

[NRP]

This thread inspired my to take my 8R out for a match or two (I've been grinding my Catapults). First match on Forest Colony, the enemy starts capping our base so I head back alone. I crest a hill and run into what is surely the bulk of the enemy team. I was able to kill a Hunchback, a Centurion, and rip both ears off a Catapult before I went down. It's a damn shame I just charged in blindly expecting only a light. If I was more cautious I think I could have survived a bit longer. Nevertheless, I am amazed at just how dangerous the 8R brawler is up close. As I've said before, this thing is legit.

Second match on River City was a good one. I killed an Atlas, a Cataphract, and then a Stalker to close out the match. Brawling an Atlas makes me laugh. At first, they charge you face to face with no fear, then after the first alpha when components start flying off them, they stagger back a bit but then re-charge, when the second SRM salvo tears off an arm and turns them cherry red, they turn around and try to run away, LOL. Too bad the AWS is faster. One more SRM salvo and the big Atlas is face down smoldering. I love the 8R.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Now that's a cheese build if ever I've seen one on an 8R, but the 2 LLs are a good choice. The main flaw of that design is it requires torso exposure to be effective. Not the best choice on an Awesome. The guy above is right. Why not a stalker if u plan on exposing yourself that much? The Awesome is imo the best LRM mech in the game with TAG on it's head. I run 2PPCs, 2Streaks, 1LRM15 and 1 SRM4 with Arty and Tag on my 8R. Lot's of fun and versatile. With an Awesome, u need to be. It's a poor brawler (in comparison to other mechs, even some heavies). It's strength is mid to long range.

[NRP]

How is it a cheese build?

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

NRP, on 18 January 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

How is it a cheese build?

4 SRM6s is a cheese build for an 8R. It's the same as an A1 with 6SRM6s (or 6SRM4s with Arty) in my book but less effective. Maybe he should run 4SRM4s with Arty instead. That build has very little variety. I don't doubt its effectiveness but it's very limited in a tactical sense. You're dependent on your team to make up for it. That's why I call it cheese.

[Hex Pallett]

Brown Hornet, on 18 January 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

4 SRM6s is a cheese build for an 8R. It's the same as an A1 with 6SRM6s (or 6SRM4s with Arty) in my book but less effective. Maybe he should run 4SRM4s with Arty instead. That build has very little variety. I don't doubt its effectiveness but it's very limited in a tactical sense. You're dependent on your team to make up for it. That's why I call it cheese.

Dependent on your team? Isn't that the whole point of MWO? Of course you depend on your team because this thing's range is limited, but your team could also depend on you by luring enemy toward you and let you hulk-smash dem face. Limited in a tactical sense? B*tch please, the best tactic is the fastest way to kill enemies, and this babe does it right.