42 replies to this topic

[Ryokens leap]

Grraarrgghh, on 17 January 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

That's great old man. Now tell me how this matters in a competitive match in any way, shape, or form since you rightfully acknowledge that this is a team game.

Hey, how's Calgary doing? I guess it matters to me because I don't feel an 8 man team needs 6 ECM lights running around. One good scout pilot in concert with a mix of lrm support ,assault brawlers and skirmisher/ strikers on coms works great. This model produces, for me personally, a very rewarding experience. Tired of players throwing k/d around and proclaiming that " MYYYYY 4LL cat is a killer" like it somehow differs from ever other 4 LL cat built, and is the ultimate game changer. Hope this answers ur ?. Been to the mountains yet, how's the snow?

[Taizan]

Jakob Knight, on 17 January 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

In my experience, this only happens with mechs that don't have pilots in them anymore.

I guess I play too often in PUG matches

I'm not saying LRMs = Artillery, but the effect is similar and a target in about 800m will be suppressed by that, as you said they will be forced to change their position. The only alternative I have would be to not shoot missiles or put myself in a more vulnerable position, this is not preferable.

[Grraarrgghh]

Ryokens leap, on 17 January 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Hey, how's Calgary doing? I guess it matters to me because I don't feel an 8 man team needs 6 ECM lights running around. One good scout pilot in concert with a mix of lrm support ,assault brawlers and skirmisher/ strikers on coms works great. This model produces, for me personally, a very rewarding experience. Tired of players throwing k/d around and proclaiming that " MYYYYY 4LL cat is a killer" like it somehow differs from ever other 4 LL cat built, and is the ultimate game changer. Hope this answers ur ?. Been to the mountains yet, how's the snow?

Snow's alright, it's been pretty warm the last few days, set to stay that way for a week at least.

Pleasantries aside, I can say in all honesty I have never seen a team with more than 4 ECM in a competitive match or clan v clan scrim. So why is it such a concern? It's not a push to win button by any stretch.

[Xmith]

One of the worst things to here in a ecm atlas, " IN COMING MISSLES"

[Ryokens leap]

Grraarrgghh, on 17 January 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

Snow's alright, it's been pretty warm the last few days, set to stay that way for a week at least.

Pleasantries aside, I can say in all honesty I have never seen a team with more than 4 ECM in a competitive match or clan v clan scrim. So why is it such a concern? It's not a push to win button by any stretch.

The thread ? was why is ECM so popular? I feel it is so popular because it produces easier wins when coupled with lag shield on lights and causes multiple ECM lights and DD-C heavy teams, which gets old really fast. I guess I'm looking for an experience and am not overly concerned with the ultimate outcome. I would rather lose a close match with a mixed team to a similar team and use all aspects of the game to its fullest. Others just really like the win and the stat that goes with it. Not trying to hate on ECM players just responding to ? with my opinion. Really want this game to be a success and become immersed in true community warfare with planetary campaigns.

[Alaskan Nobody]

I love my ecm commando, but more for his 3 missile slots than the ecm (though that does help with Streakcats) - but I enjoy my non-ecm commandos to, forget which, but the one with 2E, one in each arm, I love with flammers in each arm for more coverage.
(but then, I also prefer fighting at a Slight disadvantage - makes me work harder)

[General Taskeen]

The game just keeps burning me out, but I guess that's normal considering not much has changed (game mode/features) since Closed Beta. I can't stand mindless 15 minute shoot-em-up's over and over, like I'm playing Solaris Warrior Online, with no real objectives or tactics on small maps, so I'm finding myself taking longer breaks during the week when I actually load this game back up. I often load up older Mech titles and play them for hours, like Mech Warrior 3, and a lot more MW:LL, since I like the tactical depth of their Terrain Control game mode (my favorite) with longer 2 hour battles.

Edited by General Taskeen, 17 January 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[JD White]

My point was more that ECM is so popular that it could be, seems to be, crowding out all the other fine Mechs a new player could choose to play. ECM is just to large of an incentive right now for new players to gravitate towards.

[Ghogiel]

ECM is popular because LRMs and SSRMs.

[Cordy Ceps]

ECM is popular because is allows horrible, horrible positioning go unpunished sometimes. Thats why every noob newb that gets into an ECM mech and usually doesnt hear "incoming missiles" all the time anymore thinks that ECM is the only way to go. The stealth from ECM lets a lone atlas ddc live, where otherwise his lone-wolf strayoff would be exploited by enemy strikers.
They do not see their own positioning mistakes, but they clearly see the impact of ecm - they live more then 5 mins.
As for me, when I run my Flame, I dont get hit by missiles more often then in my ddc. Careful positioning and map awareness can provide SOME of ecm effects like stealth and missile protection, but they require experience, while ECM is a 1,5 tons module.

Still, thats only one side of the coin. The other side are mechs that get a bug-based protection against direct-fire weapons AND ECM lock-on protection. A genius Jenner pilot can replicate some of the ECM effects too, like constantly dodging lrms with JJ and denying SSRMs lock in CQC, but that requires very, very solid skill.
Fast-going ECM mechs are easy mode regarding survival. But they also have exploitable drawbacks:
2D has thin armor
5D lacks weapons
3M has big hitboxes, especially the long legs

The only one that seems to have no drawbacks is the Craven 3L. Playing it is bugusing. I sold mine.

ECM really shines on lagshielded mechs (duh). When reaching a certain level of experience, ECM becomes helpful, but not necessary to live through the match. Just look at teh stalkers, which decide a lot of battles.

Edited by Cordy Ceps, 17 January 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[Jakob Knight]

JD White, on 17 January 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

My point was more that ECM is so popular that it could be, seems to be, crowding out all the other fine Mechs a new player could choose to play. ECM is just to large of an incentive right now for new players to gravitate towards.

I suppose the question is why you feel a mech is fine without ECM compared to one with it? Do you consider a non-ECM Commando a fine example of the mech in the environment of MWO as it exists, compared to the ECM Commando...especially given the role a Commando is expected to fill?

Would you say a non-ECM Atlas will perform its job better than an ECM Atlas? Would you take an Atlas without any ECM support at all on a battlefield where you know the other side will almost certainly have ECM, and be comfortable if you end up in such a mech without any ECM on your team?

This is the problem. ECM is so much of an advantage without any disadvantages that mechs without it are not fine by comparison anymore. I know I consider any Raven, Spider, Command, or Atlas I see that does not have ECM to be a waste of tonnage on my team now. In every battle I have been in, without superior teamwork (and I say superior to what the other team has, not just good teamwork in general...a team without teamwork or not even able to use their mechs competently will lose even with ECM, while a team with only good teamwork will lose solely due to the ECM if the other team is average teamwork or better), the team with the ECM advantage has always won. Without fail. Simply because the effort to overcome ECM is so great that the disadvantaged team must already have near-overwhelming advantage to counter it that the battle would have been a wipe-out anyway.

The mechs which do not have ECM capability may still be 'fine', but only because they lack any chance to get ECM. As soon as an ECM variant comes around, they will be so much scrap to me, because they waste a slot on a team that could have that extra ECM shield.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 18 January 2013 - 05:39 AM.

[Jakob Knight]

Taizan, on 17 January 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

I guess I play too often in PUG matches

I'm not saying LRMs = Artillery, but the effect is similar and a target in about 800m will be suppressed by that, as you said they will be forced to change their position. The only alternative I have would be to not shoot missiles or put myself in a more vulnerable position, this is not preferable.

I play in PUGs often myself, and the only people standing still in the games I have been in are disconnects, or those out of line-of-sight. Even the greenest players seem to like running around the battlefield, if not in any way that helps their team.

And I have yet to see anyplace outside of Caustic where you can get a bead on a ground location occupied by an enemy at 800m. Maybe 200-300m, but even that is hard to get and too close for more than one volley. And as for 'changing their position', moving a few steps over isn't really that. It's sidestepping an enemy weapon that has been fired before it can hit you, and still maintaining your own fire unencumbered on the enemy that can't target you.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but the idea of dead-firing LRMs when they do no damage inside 200m and can be sidestepped by an Urbanmech with a leg missing outside 200m is a non-tactic to me. More like trying to find an excuse to discount the real damage ECM does to LRM units rather than an honest attempt to give LRM pilots a means to overcome ECM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

In comparison of the two Commandos: when pugging I usually find myself either in matches with Lots of light mechs, in which case, my ECM commando is definitly stronger (ecm+3ssrm makes light hunting drastically easier)
Or in matches with LOTS of Heavy/Assault, in which case the non-ecm commando is still second best for dmg, but more because of the potential for 3x srm6 - the larger mechs are unmanouverable enough, and tend Not to have anti-light mech weapons so my ecm does little good in those matches beyond being an annoyance.
-on a side not most of my kills on assaults actually happen in my flammer-Commando - in spite of what math says should be happening.

[Tennex]

its popular because its OP

why worry about LRMs/ streaks when you can just pick up this cureall for 1.5 tons. Not only does it redeem its weight value vs. 1.5 tons of armor in damage reductions.

**** it makes you invisible! But no F**k that, it makes your whole team invisible!!!

Jenners got you feeling down? No problem bring ECM and some sSRMs. and you got yoruself a lagsheild seeking, lagshield generating "f**ck you", that shrugs off other sSRMs.

why play any other light mech?

[Scrawny Cowboy]

ECM = 1.5 tons to deploy, only restriction that it is available on certain mech variants

Against ECM = ECM itself and sensor range modules (only a few thousand in general exp, oh and a few million c-bills)

So... the most effective way against ECM is ECM. That or build loadouts that won't be too affected by ECM.

[Deamhan]

ECM offers too much for too little of a cost. It was advertised that you can target off of someone else's target and provide support from from cover. TAG need direct line of sight to function and if someone on the front line has it, it gets negated by the ECM umbrella.

So now LRMs have to carry it and must have direct line of sight to use it and their LRMs. Streaks are rendered utterly useless.
No way a single module with such little draw back should have so much power.

If TAG should be the module to target through ECM, then it should do so always. The only thing that should be affected by being within the bubble is the ability to broadcast to team mates

[JohnnyC]

I "PUG" almost exclusively (have joined in TS, but very very rarely). I have a 1.31 K/D ratio and a 396/363 win/loss ratio. Not one of my mechs have ECM. I pilot Jenners and Stalkers. Sometimes I tear it up out there, sometimes I get smoked by the enemy team. Just depends on the round.

I think ECM, in its current state, is a borderline exploit. I say borderline because on a non-lagshielded mech, it's no big deal. On a lagshielded mech... you have to be more lucky than good to beat them. If there are two lagshielded ECM mechs attacking and you don't have a full lance to help take them down, you're toast. They really shouldn't have implemented ECM until they had the netcode working right... but they did. So here we are...

What I'm really saying here is that ECM isn't the be all and end all. I'm not always the last mech standing, but sometimes I am. Hell... "last mech standing" matches are a rare thing. It usually comes down to 5v1 or worse in the end...

[Choseph Stalin]

Not how new players think, given ECM capability is very loosely described in the store. Also a case of causation/correlation where in this case the 3L - streak build and the commando 2D - streak build WILL outclass the average light player, simply due to the lack of skill + the "lag shield". In fact I rarely see ecm commandos and ravens ever do comparatively poorly to other light variants.

JD White, on 17 January 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

Until, of course, you save up to get that "Uber" ECM Atlas...

About the DDC: As an opinion I feel the DDC is the best assault in the current metagame; it will simply outclass any other assault LRM missile boat due to its ECM capabilities. Even the suicide 3 srm6 + ac20 build will still pubstomp uncoordinated teams with great payoff.

Is ECM OP then? No it just has a very strong "noob punisher" factor

[Fate 6]

BDU Havoc, on 17 January 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

Not enough people in LRM boats are using all of the tools they have available.

They load up on LRMs, try and target an ECM equipped 'Mech 700m away and can't, then complain about ECM being OP.

Use TAG.
Except for the Catapult A1, any missile boat has an energy hardpoint that can be used to mount a TAG.
Hell my Stalker LRM build has 5 LRM15s and still mounts a TAG. If I can see you before you get to 180m, you're going to have a bad time.

Sorry, anyone with a brain and legs on their mech can avoid an LRM boat with direct line of sight and doubled lock-on time. It's easy enough to avoid LRMs without using ECM. The only map this would be of any use on is Caustic.

Also, maintaining a lock through TAG on a 140kph Raven is really not easy at all.

[Fate 6]

Choseph Stalin, on 18 January 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

Not how new players think, given ECM capability is very loosely described in the store. Also a case of causation/correlation where in this case the 3L - streak build and the commando 2D - streak build WILL outclass the average light player, simply due to the lack of skill + the "lag shield". In fact I rarely see ecm commandos and ravens ever do comparatively poorly to other light variants.




About the DDC: As an opinion I feel the DDC is the best assault in the current metagame; it will simply outclass any other assault LRM missile boat due to its ECM capabilities. Even the suicide 3 srm6 + ac20 build will still pubstomp uncoordinated teams with great payoff.

Is ECM OP then? No it just has a very strong "noob punisher" factor

So you talk about how all the ECM variants are stronger than non-ECM mechs of the same weight class. How is that not OP? If it's best to take a D-DC over any other assault, and it's best to take a 3L over any other light (and some mediums), I fail to see how ECM isn't OP.