153 replies to this topic

[Jacmac]

Don't bother giving an opinion if you play 4-man slop most of the time, 8-mans are a totally different animal.

My unit tries to play a balanced match, but I noticed that the opponents we face are usually made up like the following:

2-3 Atlas D-DCs
2-3 Raven 2Ls
2-4 specialized units (e.g. 2 SRM Cats, 2 Gauss Cats, Fast Awesomes, Ilya-Muromets, 6 PPC or 4x SRM6 Stalker, sometimes a Cicada 3M, etc.)

In most cases the 8-mans are geared with weapons toward forcing a close range game and at least 4-5 ECM units, sometimes 6. AC20s & SRMs are dominant. They maneuver to close in on our team and if we do not engage or are set up for a long range defense, then they tend to base rush (which pretty much forces us to try base rushing or playing the close range game).

Is the long range game dead or at least should be a distant second to the medium to short range game? I struggle with other teammates sense of how the game should work vs how it does in fact work.

[Sahoj]

Map has a decided influence.

Caustic and Forest Colony both have excellent firing/suppression lanes for long range mechs.

I've found long range struggles in Frozen City and River City. It's simply more urban fighting.

The upcoming maps - Alpine and Desert may adjust the balance.

[deforce]

teams take whatever best fits thier players stregnths and wins matches. If you are a good ranged team and can core out or kill a few mechs before they are able to engage in a full brawl then thats great. But if you can't you best have a few mechs who can brawl when the other team does close in on you.

[Volthorne]

Long range was dead the instant ECM came into play.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Long range seems to be extremely difficult to pull off.

1) the maps aren't the large to begin with, even ones like Caustic (honestly one of the longest fields of fire possible maps)

2) ECM + cover means teams that are smart can take cover on approach and get to 450m or so without any real challenge, and at that point it's all LL's and below with AC20s/SSRM taking a toll.

3) ECM also really disables the ability to use LRM to pin down approaching forces on most maps if used properly. Not game breaking but definitely "shortens" the map.

4) while I won't say Brawling takes less skill or anything like that, it's easier for moderately skilled players to pick up, as positioning and a steady hand at long range isn't that common. People think they are all snipers with the gauss and PPC but most really aren't. So ultimately, spraying lasers at closer ranges is easier for people and therefore what they gravitate towards doing. Keeping a good team off of you with Long range fire requires constantly repositioning and patience....and that goes back to the map sizes....entirely too easy to get pressed into borders or terrain and your repositioning cut off.

just my initial take on the question.

[Voridan Atreides]

Sahoj, on 17 January 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

The upcoming maps - Alpine and Desert may adjust the balance.

What are those like? Do we have any information on them yet?

[EmCeeMendez]

One 4 or 6 PPC Stalker is a valuable asset to a close range team. Keyword, one.

[ICEFANG13]

Apparently you are incorrect on how many ECM mechs there are in 8 mans.

[Jacmac]

ICEFANG13, on 17 January 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Apparently you are incorrect on how many ECM mechs there are in 8 mans.

Have you been spying on my PC somehow? How could you possibly know?

[ICEFANG13]

Per what PGI says. ECM isn't extremely prevalent in 8 mans.

[ReD3y3]

This observation is incorrect.

A balanced team will beat a niche team most of the time. All that is needed is positioning.

Take to brawler mechs (cent cn9-As for instance)

Use them to screen away the enemy brawlers while you Gauss Cats and Atlas's pound into them.

If they get throught the Cents. Push up your Atlas' to screen away your gauss cats.

They should be worn to nothing by this time, and you should win.

use your scout team (should be 2 ravens and a cicada 3m or 3 ravens) to pressure their base and get the enemy to move out of position for your assault team.

I give this info in hopes that I face better teams in 8 man drops.


THANKS!

[Vassago Rain]

If by 'long range,' you mean LRMs, yes. Those were dead way before ECM. Long range in 8 manz is gauss rifles and PPCs.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Long Range, aside from LRM's is not dead by any means.

[Jacmac]

ReD3y3, on 17 January 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

This observation is incorrect.

A balanced team will beat a niche team most of the time. All that is needed is positioning.

Take to brawler mechs (cent cn9-As for instance)

Use them to screen away the enemy brawlers while you Gauss Cats and Atlas's pound into them.

If they get throught the Cents. Push up your Atlas' to screen away your gauss cats.

They should be worn to nothing by this time, and you should win.

use your scout team (should be 2 ravens and a cicada 3m or 3 ravens) to pressure their base and get the enemy to move out of position for your assault team.

I give this info in hopes that I face better teams in 8 man drops.


THANKS!

You are describing a team with 2 Gausscats, 2 Atlas', and 3 ECM Ravens/CDA-3Ms, 1 Centurion? Is this niche or what you would consider to be balanced?

[Jacmac]

DV McKenna, on 17 January 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

Long Range, aside from LRM's is not dead by any means.

How do you qualify that? Have you won an 8-man match long range recently? I would not say there are no long range shot traded, but most of the team I've faced have tried to specifically force a short range brawl. Caustic is the only map where you can not really force it all of the time because there is so much room. On this map, we find many teams try to get away with a base rush if they can't force a short range brawl.

[Vassago Rain]

Jacmac, on 17 January 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

How do you qualify that? Have you won an 8-man match long range recently? I would not say there are no long range shot traded, but most of the team I've faced have tried to specifically force a short range brawl. Caustic is the only map where you can not really force it all of the time because there is so much room. On this map, we find many teams try to get away with a base rush if they can't force a short range brawl.

Because if you try to hold back in 8 manz, you get killed quickly by large lasers, PPCs, and gauss rifles. Everybody carries them for a reason.

LRMs were a bad idea even before ECM, but some teams are VERY good at setting up TAG and LRM barrages. I think it's one of the pony strike units. They usually run sanic cents and stalkers.

[Vermaxx]

"Long range" weapons in MWO have nowhere near the appeal they had in tabletop, because no one tries to stand at the ranges they did in tabletop. Tabletop long range weapons offset the slow speed of heavy/assault mechs by increasing their chance to hit at long range. None of this exists in MWO. Part of that is map size, part is map construction, part is the function of long range weapons (actual aim, ballistic delay, leading, netcode issues).

The simple fact is this - long range can work wonders, but you can completely avoid their use in most fights. Medlas boats can almost always get into stabbing range without being peppered the entire way in. Add to this the fact that most long range weapons in MWO are not mathematically optimal, sometimes even non viable.

What we DO have are maps intentionally designed to favor slugfests rather than "slow paced" sniping and careful measured fire - which is what BATTLETECH was. MECHWARRIOR games are often more about fast paced and brutal conflict instead of tactics and positioning.

[ReD3y3]

Jacmac, on 17 January 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

You are describing a team with 2 Gausscats, 2 Atlas', and 3 ECM Ravens/CDA-3Ms, 1 Centurion? Is this niche or what you would consider to be balanced?

it is balanced

3 man light group scouts
2 atlas
3gauss cats

Above is the setup that wins.

I guess i threw meds in their bc we run them out of necissity for league drops.

Edited by ReD3y3, 17 January 2013 - 04:06 PM.

[xZaOx]

Ugh.....if you look at any of the top tiered teams, they are all sniper heavy. Sept us, cuz we like to brawl.

[Davers]

Jacmac, on 17 January 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

Don't bother giving an opinion if you play 4-man slop most of the time, 8-mans are a totally different animal.

My unit tries to play a balanced match, but I noticed that the opponents we face are usually made up like the following:

2-3 Atlas D-DCs
2-3 Raven 2Ls
2-4 specialized units (e.g. 2 SRM Cats, 2 Gauss Cats, Fast Awesomes, Ilya-Muromets, 6 PPC or 4x SRM6 Stalker, sometimes a Cicada 3M, etc.)

ICEFANG13, on 17 January 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Apparently you are incorrect on how many ECM mechs there are in 8 mans.

Since the OP declared his team runs with 4-7 ECM units, it would seem if you ran against him you would say, "Boy, thats a lot of ECM."

I thought LRMs were always dead in 8 man since the first tournament? However there are a lot of Large Lasers around.