777 replies to this topic

[Ghogiel]

Void Angel, on 20 October 2013 - 01:08 AM, said:

You haven't made any points. You've stated conclusions, based solely on your subjective recollection of your own experience, then resorted to insulting assumptions and outright trolling when I disagreed. I've posted several arguments for why I hold my opinions - and you haven't addressed a single one of them. For the second time, please be constructive in your posting.

Increasing the odds of survival relies on risk prevention. The best way to do that is hold the best terrain / defensive position close enough to your main base to prevent/see back cappers.



The OP starts with cherry picked scenarios about bads at Rtardridge. We can skip those. But I can address your assertions>

Quote

Camping cedes the initiative to the enemy. A commonly-cited principle of self-defense is that most fistfights are won by the first punch. Similarly, the first side in a match to have a major portion of their tonnage killed or crippled is at a major disadvantage. By staying in one place and waiting to see what the enemy does, you're allowing him that first swing. Sure, he might miss, or start too slow so you can counter-punch - but he gets to decide where and how to hit you, and you have to respond. The opportunity to make the first mistake is yours.

The stronger positioning grants the advantage, not who moves first.

The stronger position is where you can land the first punch from.

The way the maps are constructed usually limits the routes to attack the strong positions. Thereby allowing an entrenched enemy to control from where they are attacked from and to attack if the enemy when they make a positioning error. Drawing the enemy in also opens up possible base caps.

It is not guaranteed that you get first shot during any advance.

Quote

Camping muddles your forces' ability to react to enemy actions in a concerted manner. One of the ways a PUG communicates is by actions. When you are on the move, even without VoIP, you are all moving together, aside from the scouts (hopefully, but that's another thread.) This means that you're all going the same direction and doing the same thing. This means that people who aren't sure of the total situation can take their cue from those around them; this makes it easier for players to act in concert with each other. If you stop moving, your pilots' minds will wander; they'll start looking in different directions, moving around, getting impatient... They'll start making their own plans. So while the enemy who hits you from the flank is acting in concert, your teammates are at least momentarily unsure of what to do - and the enemy gets in that first good punch.

Communication, or lack there of is the same for any action in PUGs. Assuming PUGs move together is a stretch.

Quote

• The side that takes effective action wins. This touches on both the previous points, but it bears repeating. Whether in politics, videogames, or the very serious arena of modern war; the side that acts effectively wins. The best generals throughout history (yes, even Sun Tzu) desired the initiative, and suffered when they lost it. And it is very difficult, for reasons including those above, to take effective action from a static, defensive position - take a moment when your next match starts, and keep track of how long it takes everyone to get moving.

Effective action is key. Higher risk low reward actions should be avoided. Low risk high reward are to be sought. Pushing in PUGs is quite high risk because no communication and no focus fire. I think you found that out then made a thread about that fact.

Edited by Ghogiel, 20 October 2013 - 03:25 AM.

[Nick Makiaveli]

How could you possibly hold the high ground in a PUG? How you could you possibly organize a push in a PUG?

Answers.....you can't. You can only react to what the PUG is doing. If they seem to be milling around base, then advise them on stronger positions and react to the enemy advance. If you see them heading into the meat-grinder at the middle, then flank with anyone who will follow you.

As to timidity, it's like aggression. It's only a good thing when it's the right time for it.

I occasionally step up in PUGs and try to coordinate/advise etc. I've often found that if you aren't in Light, and act like you have a plan, then often they will follow you like lost puppies. Doesn't mean they will fight effectively, but it's a start.

I assume everyone playing has speakers, so go buy a cheap standalone mic and jump on a TS server. Plenty of free ones listed on these forums, so you can choose a House or just jump the one hosted by No Guts, No Galaxy. That way you can join a 4 or 12 man pre-made and life will be much easier.

Of if you are so inclined, drop by and see if you have what it takes to join the DHB. We aren't elitist, and you don't have to sell your soul to join. At the same token, [Redacted by Comstar]'s need not apply.

[Ghogiel]

Nick Makiaveli, on 20 October 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

How could you possibly hold the high ground in a PUG?

By standing on it.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Ghogiel, on 20 October 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

By standing on it.

Well yes, but if you are the only one, say Hi to Custer for me.

[Ghogiel]

Nick Makiaveli, on 20 October 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

Well yes, but if you are the only one, say Hi to Custer for me.

In operation meat shield the best position follows the heard.

[DirtyRooster]

This was an interesting read, While I am not a veteran in this game I made it a personal effort to get in an Atlas and master it. I started solo but know I have a consistent group of 3 other people I group with. I typically bring my D-D-C, i have gone through tons of load outs but I found the best is , 2xLPLs, 1xAC20, 1xLRM15, ECM.

My group typically consists of a Scout (Spider),Firebrand, Misery, and a variations of Centurion. Our scout goes out and marks targets and while the rest take up flank positions around me the Misery usually chills beside me or right behind. Then we wait, as our scout marks targets we typically soften them up with LRMs. As the battle unfolds we wait until the time is right then strike.

My moto is "Selective, Decisive, Dedication" Once we decide to push forward I call out target, then I say focus, then I (at times yell) Dedicate. Once an Atlas is in motion it shall stay in motion. The intimidation of a Atlas opening up with a AC 20 is enough to cause the other side to scramble. I soak damage while my squad brings down my target. If I fall I know I soaked enough damage to let my squad clean up.

What I mean by selective is we do not charge right in. We wait assess then deliver pinpoint lightning strikes. To charge headlong into a swarm of mechs is silly for an Atlas unless you have support. I have seen plenty of Boars Heads die because of that. So while my scout reports we sit in cover under my ECM bubble waiting and taking LRM shots.

I love to brawl on my Abunai (name of my Atlas) but it must be done smartly. I just think people think brawlers are a unstoppable force alone. Even when I am alone I wait until the time is right.

[Void Angel]

As well you should, Rooster. Charging alone is a great way to get killed, and I reiterate that I'm not advocating specific tactics here, beyond pointing out that camping in a PuG is often a great way to get slaughtered. Similarly, like Nick says, you have to cooperate with what your PuG is willing to do - which is why I don't advocate specific tactics, beyond cautioning against becoming so risk-averse you sabotage yourself. =)

Ghogiel, thank you. It's very rare to see someone who will actually respond to a request for reasoning by attempting to provide it. Without sarcasm, I thank you.

However, you're still wrong.

Ghogiel, on 20 October 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

Increasing the odds of survival relies on risk prevention. The best way to do that is hold the best terrain / defensive position close enough to your main base to prevent/see back cappers.

The stronger positioning grants the advantage, not who moves first.

The stronger position is where you can land the first punch from.

Communication, or lack there of is the same for any action in PUGs. Assuming PUGs move together is a stretch.

Effective action is key. Higher risk low reward actions should be avoided. Low risk high reward are to be sought. Pushing in PUGs is quite high risk because no communication and no focus fire. I think you found that out then made a thread about that fact.

One problem with your reasoning is that you're underestimating the effect that command and control has on the battlefield: specifically, how the near-total lack of such affects PuG matches. If you have a sizable group of brawlers moving together (this is not a stretch; it happens all the time - assuming that I expect the entire team to move together is a stretch,) they're going to all be facing the same way, seeing mostly the same things, with roughly the same goal. In order to camp a "strong point," you have to cover multiple avenues of approach without quick communication - so your team is facing several directions, and not seeing the same things. This is a recipe for chaos, not effective action. If you're spread out behind terrain features (and you will be) hoping that you'll get a kill or two before the enemy does, you're not engaging in "risk prevention" - you're gambling.

You're gambling that your randomly generated team will have enough snipers with enough skill to win a sniper war; you're gambling that your group of mostly strangers will react to the enemy with enough cooperation to be effective; you're gambling that when the enemy scouts tap your base, half your brawlers don't run back while the enemy probes your weakened lines. You're gambling, because you don't have any real control. Assuming PuGs will stay together is a stretch, as is expecting them to react to the enemy in a concerted fashion from a static position - when the time comes to act, they're going to cooperate like a herd of cats, because everyone is looking in different directions, seeing different things, and there's no guarantee your front-line brawlers will actually be between your direct-fire support 'mechs and the enemy. There's risk and chaos involved in a push, too, but your team will be pointed in the same direction and seeing the same things - and their foremost thought will be killing the enemy, rather than simply avoiding damage. Both actions can end in tears - but more of the variables are accounted for by taking aggressive action.

Not, again, that you always have to bum rush people - we're only debating the benefits of rushing versus camping because of your assertion that camping is best. If you can get your team to cooperate, that's great, and there are occasions where it is advantageous or just necessary to wait in place, depending on how your fellow PuGs are acting. But if you do choose to camp, you have to remember that it is dangerous without command and control.

Of course, I've already treated this point, so as a final note, I have to take issue with a few pieces of your logic, specifically a bit of hypocrisy which I hope is unintentional. It isn't quite consistent to mischaracterize my introductory examples as being "cherry picked" while simultaneously ignoring an entire bullet point paragraph which deals precisely with your criticism of my argument - particularly when you directly quote the points above and below it.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Ghogiel, on 20 October 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

In operation meat shield the best position follows the heard.

True to an extent, but if you are in a Light not an Assault...

Also, if my herd crashes into their herd which left the house unlocked, I am going to steal the jewelry box.

[Ghogiel]

Void Angel, on 20 October 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

One problem with your reasoning is that you're underestimating the effect that command and control has on the battlefield: specifically, how the near-total lack of such affects PuG matches.

Actually you are underestimating it. You're entire argument relies on the idea that you can effectively herd cats. The best thing in PUGs is to carry. And carry harder, the longer I am on the field better I will do. My own survival is what wins matches, not Mr LRM atlases.

Quote

If you have a sizable group of brawlers moving together (this is not a stretch; it happens all the time - assuming that I expect the entire team to move together is a stretch,) they're going to all be facing the same way, seeing mostly the same things, with roughly the same goal. In order to camp a "strong point," you have to cover multiple avenues of approach without quick communication - so your team is facing several directions, and not seeing the same things. This is a recipe for chaos, not effective action. If you're spread out behind terrain features (and you will be) hoping that you'll get a kill or two before the enemy does, you're not engaging in "risk prevention" - you're gambling.

Not really. Cherry picking a scenario is pointless, spreading out behind terrain and garbage like that is derping. If you are actually in a strong terrain position> this gives you eyes on enemy approach. It gives you free time to hopelessly type into chat to maybe herd cats. It gives you cover advantage where you can poptart effectively. It gives you opportunity to take the first mech to come through the kill zone.

Quote

You're gambling that your randomly generated team will have enough snipers with enough skill to win a sniper war; you're gambling that your group of mostly strangers will react to the enemy with enough cooperation to be effective; you're gambling that when the enemy scouts tap your base, half your brawlers don't run back while the enemy probes your weakened lines. You're gambling, because you don't have any real control.

Yes it's always a gamble. You have to weigh the odds. Discounting the underhive where salad builds and snowflakes still exist, and hey, that would be condescending to new players to recommend anything that isn't built for high level play, the odds are in the favor of fairly sniper heavy teams> Since the meta is poptart long range high dmg alpha assault mechs and that will be the majority of the mechs in the game. 3 733C and VTR BSK SJR WS premades every round, You are using the odds to your advantage.

Quote

Assuming PuGs will stay together is a stretch, as is expecting them to react to the enemy in a concerted fashion from a static position - when the time comes to act, they're going to cooperate like a herd of cats, because everyone is looking in different directions, seeing different things, and there's no guarantee your front-line brawlers will actually be between your direct-fire support 'mechs and the enemy. There's risk and chaos involved in a push, too, but your team will be pointed in the same direction and seeing the same things - and their foremost thought will be killing the enemy, rather than simply avoiding damage. Both actions can end in tears - but more of the variables are accounted for by taking aggressive action.

No it's not. We can discount that because herding cats and timidity. You are trying to fight against the nature of the beast. Utilizing any scrub pushing the best you can is obviously good. However always cut the loss of even 2-3 mechs that are badly positioned. It will not matter how many mechs you push out into the cold. My solo PUG stats are a good evidence I am doing it right.

Quote

Not, again, that you always have to bum rush people - we're only debating the benefits of rushing versus camping because of your assertion that camping is best. If you can get your team to cooperate, that's great, and there are occasions where it is advantageous or just necessary to wait in place, depending on how your fellow PuGs are acting. But if you do choose to camp, you have to remember that it is dangerous without command and control.

A strong defensive position is actually safe. By definition. If it is not then it is something else, like bad positioning.

Quote

Of course, I've already treated this point, so as a final note, I have to take issue with a few pieces of your logic, specifically a bit of hypocrisy which I hope is unintentional. It isn't quite consistent to mischaracterize my introductory examples as being "cherry picked" while simultaneously ignoring an entire bullet point paragraph which deals precisely with your criticism of my argument - particularly when you directly quote the points above and below it.

I addressed all 3 of your bullet points. If you mean the middle one, what I mean is that your individual survival is priority. You die anywhere except in volunteer suicide missions, the ones where you know you are throwing your already damaged mech away for the greater good, ie to slow a base cap against 3 mechs AND you have friendlies actually responding correctly is a mistake.

Edited by Ghogiel, 20 October 2013 - 07:45 PM.

[ShinVector]

Not going to digest the OP's whole wall of text..
But there is more than one way to skin a cat..

As you get into higher and higher ELO levels of play. You will realise that there is a lot of waiting around..
This happens because if the brawlers go in first... They will simply die to heavy pop tart and sniper fire without accomplishing anything.

Usually it is a waiting game while opposing snipers and pop tart whittle themselves down.. Revealing what is the make up of the opposing teams.
Once a crack on either side happen than, the show start and usually it ends very quickly..
Don't be surprised if brawling occurs only at the 10 min...

Unless you are in a 12 man with Commanders calling the shots, don't expect too high level of cooperation between PUGs.

However, with the upcoming nerfing of the seismic sensor.. We might see sneaking around make a come back.
Again I am going to say that PGI should remove Seismic sensor which single handedly destroyed sneaking around in the game...

Yes... This is why light mechs are not so, inclined to scout now a days because there is simply too risk for little reward.

Edited by ShinVector, 20 October 2013 - 09:34 PM.

[Void Angel]

ShinVector, on 20 October 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

Not going to digest the OP's whole wall of text..

And I shall grant you the same courtesy. Please review this post, and scroll down to the section on "trolling." If you want to offer your opinion without the bare courtesy of reading the thread, start your own.

Ghogiel, you repeatedly misstate my position - there is no 'herding cats' required here. If you want to see herded cats, watch half of them scatter when the enemy light taps their base while they're camping. You claim I'm "condescending" to PuGs by making a post to address problem behaviors that I see them making, but you only consider them to be smart when it's advantageous for you. They're smart enough to all cooperate on a moment's notice when the enemy makes a move while they're camping; but they're too stupid to take any kind of roughly concerted action other than camping. When they camp without intel, they're engaging in risk management; yet when they're spread out so three people aren't trying to use the same building for cover, they're "durping." Your claims regarding the nature of PuG gamers are inconsistent.

You also keep trying to assume facts not in evidence when you argue your points, and repeatedly ignore contrary reasoning. If you cannot or will not actually engage your opponent's reasoning, your argument is critically weak. For example, you are trying to argue that camping is not dangerous by simplistically claiming that "A strong defensive position is safe, by definition," yet you ignore all my specific reasoning as to why stopping in one place - pointing many different directions, and without command and control - is dangerous. Repeating your assertions will not somehow make my logic go away. You have not addressed that point, and it begins to appear you are not going to do so.

Similarly, you keep on assuming that you can get everyone to cooperate and camp, but that getting the brawlers together for a push is "herding cats." Your campers are steely-eyed killers, alertly scanning their sectors and waiting for the right moment to strike - my brawler push must always be composed of drooling imbeciles who cannot understand the concept of "go that way and kill 'mechs." Which is it? Are PuGs inherently uncooperative to the point where no coordination is ever possible, or do you live in the real world with me? When PGI released some game demographics a while back, they showed that fully half of all players drop with friends. That means that in any given match, half of them are likely in some kind of group - and voice coms are only a microphone away. This makes defensive action problematic, because half the players are going to come up with different plans, and half of them are going to just play it by ear. This is a recipe for chaos, not cooperation. Conversely, while half the brawler rush is indeed going to have different plans and ideas, they are all going to be ideas on how to push along our route of march and engage the enemy. It's not perfect, but it's got better than even odds. While you're expecting metaphorical cats to sit in one place and not scatter, I'm throwing a catnip toy down the hallway - not everyone will do the same thing, but they're mostly going in the same direction, and after the same goal.

It bears repeating that I am not saying you always have to rush, nor am I claiming that camping is always bad. What I am saying is that camping presents risks in the PuG environment which must be considered; it's not a good default posture. I can understand why you would want this to be a "j00 alwais haz to rush!1!!!one!" thread, because that's easy to knock down; but my actual reasoning is not so simplistic.

Edited by Void Angel, 21 October 2013 - 03:11 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Void Angel, on 21 October 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

Ghogiel, you repeatedly misstate my position - there is no 'herding cats' required here. If you want to see herded cats, watch half of them scatter when the enemy light taps their base while they're camping. You claim I'm "condescending" to PuGs by making a post to address problem behaviors that I see them making, but you only consider them to be smart when it's advantageous for you. They're smart enough to all cooperate on a moment's notice when the enemy makes a move while they're camping; but they're too stupid to take any kind of roughly concerted action other than camping. When they camp without intel, they're engaging in risk management; yet when they're spread out so three people aren't trying to use the same building for cover, they're "durping." Your claims regarding the nature of PuG gamers are inconsistent.

You are being inconsistent in your assumptions of PUG gamers. Firstly you are the one assuming they have attention spans of goldfish and can't camp without wandering off etc. I've only agreed with you there is a lack of coordination in PUGs. And yes, certainly they are only smart when it is advatagous to me, doesn't even make sense to think that team mates who are a disadvantage to me are also smart.

Assuming that this phantom enemy team is doing a cooridinated flank or push instead of also suffering from this misconceived problem of being timid is asinine. If this thread's premise had merit you should be writing about how to capitalize on the enemies atlas who goes alone. If it's not an issue, then why make the thread.

If the reason you made this thread is to address any wide spread issue of camping or timidity, If it's even an issue, which it I don't see, odds are both teams are equally affected. And you have to factor that in. Are the odds the same the enemy will let their atlas go over Rtard ridge alone.. then cut their loss? if it's a problem on your team, it's also on theirs. And if that is a widespread tactic... you're better off capitalizing on when the enemy making that mistake.

Secondly intel, you are the one assuming you have it. I am not. In fact camping a strong defensive position doesn't require it. Pushing actually relies on it. Camping allows you time and space to gather it.

Quote

You also keep trying to assume facts not in evidence when you argue your points, and repeatedly ignore contrary reasoning. If you cannot or will not actually engage your opponent's reasoning, your argument is critically weak. For example, you are trying to argue that camping is not dangerous by simplistically claiming that "A strong defensive position is safe, by definition," yet you ignore all my specific reasoning as to why stopping in one place - pointing many different directions, and without command and control - is dangerous.

Repeating your assertions will not somehow make my logic go away. You have not addressed that point, and it begins to appear you are not going to do so.

Cherry picked scenarios are useless, you can make up all manner of stories and set up a scenario to suggest any out come you want. But lets not bother as it's pointless. We can decide the merit of both tactics in a general sense on the answer to one question> is camping the preferred tactic or is pushing?

Quote

Similarly, you keep on assuming that you can get everyone to cooperate and camp, but that getting the brawlers together for a push is "herding cats." Your campers are steely-eyed killers, alertly scanning their sectors and waiting for the right moment to strike - my brawler push must always be composed of drooling imbeciles who cannot understand the concept of "go that way and kill 'mechs." Which is it?

In my games they are all stacked 4man premades of <insert well known teams who have earnt reps>. They play meta and can end you in 1 single coordinated alpha if you balls up.

But lets assume I am on my alt account in the underhive> They are disorganized. So what? Playing meta builds, mechs and style is the best way to carry teams.

Quote

Are PuGs inherently uncooperative to the point where no coordination is ever possible, or do you live in the real world with me? When PGI released some game demographics a while back, they showed that fully half of all players drop with friends. That means that in any given match, half of them are likely in some kind of group - and voice coms are only a microphone away. This makes defensive action problematic, because half the players are going to come up with different plans, and half of them are going to just play it by ear. This is a recipe for chaos, not cooperation. Conversely, while half the brawler rush is indeed going to have different plans and ideas, they are all going to be ideas on how to push along our route of march and engage the enemy. It's not perfect, but it's got better than even odds. While you're expecting metaphorical cats to sit in one place and not scatter, I'm throwing a catnip toy down the hallway - not everyone will do the same thing, but they're mostly going in the same direction, and after the same goal.

The biggest piece of catnip in a PUG game right now is a premade of 4 733Cs or 3 of them with a light. Someone came to win.

Quote

It bears repeating that I am not saying you always have to rush, nor am I claiming that camping is always bad. What I am saying is that camping presents risks in the PuG environment which must be considered; it's not a good default posture. I can understand why you would want this to be a "j00 alwais haz to rush!1!!!one!" thread, because that's easy to knock down; but my actual reasoning is not so simplistic.

So the question remains, is timidity and camping the most common tactic or is rushing the predominate one.

Edited by Ghogiel, 21 October 2013 - 04:33 AM.

[Void Angel]

Specific, generalized reasoning as to why camping is dangerous in the PuG environment is not "cherry picking scenarios." Your specious practice of dismissing all examples as "cherry picked" is not going to work for you here, nor is your amateur-hour sophistry of saying "No, YOU," and then pretending a statement means the opposite of what it said.

Ghogiel, on 21 October 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

You are being inconsistent in your assumptions of PUG gamers. Firstly you are the one assuming they have attention spans of goldfish and can't camp without wandering off etc. I've only agreed with you there is a lack of coordination in PUGs. And yes, certainly they are only smart when it is advatagous to me, doesn't even make sense to think that team mates who are a disadvantage to me are also smart.

You quote me pointing out that your estimation of PuG intelligence is inconsistent, insert a counter-accusation ("no, you're being inconsistent!") move on to a straw man oversimplification, and then wrap up your statement by trying to shift definitions and subjects again. We're not talking about your vague definition of smart PuGs; we're talking about how you apply that definition inconsistently in a circular merry-go-round of egocentric logic. PuGs in your imaginary dream world are only smart enough to take roughly coordinated action when they're doing what you think they ought to do. Ask them to camp a spot, and they're smart; ask them to gather up their brawlers and move together? Nope! That's "herding cats," and Puggers are way to stupid to attack something in a group - suddenly, their IQ drops into the basement. My argument actually doesn't rely on intelligence at all. I simply explain why camping for too long exacerbates the coordination and communication problems inherent in the PuG environment - at any level of intelligence.

Time and again, you've resorted to fallacious appeals to your own authority and snide insults aimed at "the underhive." The people you play with are all "known teams that have eanrt reps" - unless you're slumming with your "other" account. How can you be so oblivious to the implications of your own beliefs? If you really are part the creme de la creme of MWO, your player group is numerically insignificant. You say all your teammates use "meta" builds without understanding that a large part of The Meta's effectiveness derives from the Thomas Theorem in action. If everyone else on your team is playing a certain way, being the lone visible nail will just get you hammered down; this has a negative impact on innovation, because early adopters of new metas will have to be very persistent to succeed. You and your buddies may play all the cookie-cutter jump-sniping poptart builds you like - but many people do not slavishly follow The Meta, and the effect of this on most people's games cannot be blithely hand-waved away. Here, yet again you employ bad logic and a double standard. "The underhive" is to be looked down on because they don't play like you do - but the implications of their differing practices is blithely ignored.

There are more command and control issues inherent in camping than in a push. Certainly both can go wrong, but we're talking about how likely that is to happen. I've explained over and over to you the reasons that is, and you've simply ran and hid behind diversionary tactics and thrown up one straw man after another. Well, I'm done. "To give truth to him who loves it not is merely to give him more manifold reasons for misinterpretation." You have continually misrepresented statements you've quoted, in an sophomoric and futile attempt to score a logical kill - while simultaneously avoiding contrary reasoning like the plague. I have no doubt that you'll pollute my thread with another diatribe - you cannot resist "getting the last word," since you view argument as a form of social competition instead of a way to find truth. So be it; you may vent your spleen all you wish - but I will no longer see your posts.

[Deathz Jester]

Void Angel, on 18 January 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

-snip-

Can I like it twice? lol

[wintersborn]

To the OP.

If this is your Clan and your organized lance drops then you can [complain] all you want about team play and have good reason to.

[redacted]

Edited by miSs, 21 October 2013 - 04:26 PM.
inflammatory + language

[Nick Makiaveli]

wintersborn, on 21 October 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

To the OP.

If this is your Clan and your organized lance drops then you can [complain] all you want about team play and have good reason to.

[redacted]

So your point is there is no point in trying to change other people's opinion?

So are you too old and jaded to believe people can change, or a [redacted] who doesn't want to control your own behavior and justifies it by saying everyone else does it?

You see, by opening up a dialogue on the subject, some of us have engaged in intellectual discourse that could have a positive impact on the meta-game.

Or in other words, we had a ***** session and those of us with little to no Neandethal genes learned about how the other side feels.

Edited by miSs, 21 October 2013 - 04:27 PM.
quote clean up

[wintersborn]

Like I said you can do what ever you want with your clan/team/lance etc.

But telling people how and what to play in a PUG is BS. You can ask for help or recommend a general plan. But its a PUG and that means people play solo and play with anything or anyway they want, its their game time.

My DC LRM boat does better than most players in 12 man PUG's so this forced role opinion is just that.

[Wintersdark]

wintersborn, on 21 October 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

Like I said you can do what ever you want with your clan/team/lance etc.

But telling people how and what to play in a PUG is BS. You can ask for help or recommend a general plan. But its a PUG and that means people play solo and play with anything or anyway they want, its their game time.

My DC LRM boat does better than most players in 12 man PUG's so this forced role opinion is just that.

This is a forum, and specifically one in Training Grounds>guides and tactics. The express purpose of this forum is the discussion of tactics; and that eventually will come down to telling people how to play.

This particular thread is about how to be more effective in PUG's and better contribute to your team. If you don't agree that its correct, that's great! Join the discussion and put forth your reasoning.

Be aware though that "I do OK with this" in and of itself isn't an argument: the whole point of this thread is how to better contribute to your teams victory, rather than how to be the guy who dies last.

[wintersborn]

PUGs are for fun, team play is for effectiveness or who and how to win with the "Roles" and tactics etc.

I don't play to contribute to my PUG's anything, only to have fun and I don't take orders from those that try to force me to other than just that.

As an example in a MMO PUGs are Solo/Pick Up Group questing with others around. Clan/Lance team play is like Raiding and I do not want to do that in a PUG.

This is all fine advice for those looking to play as a team but to talk smack about those that don't fit Team roles/builds for solo PUG's is again BS.

[Deathz Jester]

wintersborn, on 21 October 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

PUGs are for fun, team play is for effectiveness or who and how to win with the "Roles" and tactics etc.

I don't play to contribute to my PUG's anything, only to have fun and I don't take orders from those that try to force me to other than just that.

As an example in a MMO PUGs are Solo/Pick Up Group questing with others around. Clan/Lance team play is like Raiding and I do not want to do that in a PUG.

This is all fine advice for those looking to play as a team but to talk smack about those that don't fit Team roles/builds for solo PUG's is again BS.

Are you that imbecile Jenner that always charges forth and dies 1:20 into the match?

Edited by Iron Harlequin, 21 October 2013 - 08:38 PM.