783 replies to this topic

[Jdude1]

We have a saying in the 228. "W" Key is the Win Key!!!

[Void Angel]

YueFei, on 07 January 2015 - 12:24 AM, said:

It helps to play with the mentality of getting psyched up to get some PAYBACK whenever you see a teammate get hit.

It doesn't hurt to have an escape route for yourself in case your teammate has overextended and gets himself blown to bits, but while he's catching bullets you may as well get some retribution for him.

It's a great feeling to take point, take shots, get hit by the enemy, and then see your teammates surge angrily ahead of you to go shoot the SOB who hit you.

When they are shooting at me, they cannot shoot effectively at you, and vice versa. It's seriously not cognitively possible - you can only look directly at one thing at a time. So you can slash lasers across targets, or just fill the air with AC rounds, if you're feeling wasteful, but you can't deal the focused damage that you need to take a target down fast. So the best time to hit the enemy team is when they're busily dismembering your teammate, but the game and meta discourage you from taking risks with long-range fire in most situations - hence the guide. =)

On the plus side, if you tell your team that you're going in, and manage to survive for a while, they'll typically follow you - eventually. I recall a match in Terra Therma where we ignored the PuG Zapper and circled around the caldera to catch the enemy team as they timorously peered into the central caldera. I called the charge, and led in my Thunderbolt - and no one came with me. I lasted a good eight to ten seconds with most of the enemy team shooting at me as I hit them from behind - and the last thing I saw from the circle-cam around my destroyed 'Mech was one single Catapult just barely starting to engage. But by that time the enemy team was overheated, my team had gotten the idea that if it took them that long to kill me (I love Thunderbolts) the damage was survivable... We ended up rolling them, taking one other casualty or so. Thus, you can end up turning the game around, but getting next to no c-bills or xp in the process - but it's worth it if you think of the effect on future games and prioritize the win.

[Kahadras]

What annoys me is that you'll let people know where the enemy is and they ignore you. I was in a game on Canyon Network today and was screaming for help at C5. I ended up trying to hold off two lances with one other player while the rest of the team milled around indecisively. The only guy who moved up to help went down, then I went down, then the rest of our team got rolled up one at a time.

Few people seem to use chat or bother reading what other people are saying. I wouldn't have minded so much if people had left me to die and formed some kind of meaningful firing line towards C5/C4. Instead they presented an open flank and the opposing team picked them off 1 by 1. It's depressing to die early on in a game. It's even worse to die early on, have almost nobody lift a finger to help and ignore all the your warnings.

Edited by Kahadras, 10 January 2015 - 04:20 PM.

[Insects]

Kahadras, on 10 January 2015 - 04:19 PM, said:

What annoys me is that you'll let people know where the enemy is and they ignore you. I was in a game on Canyon Network today and was screaming for help at C5.

Probably desensitized to people calling for help/attack in unreachable canyons on that map.
For all the non JJ's the canyon/hilltop next door may as well be the other side of the map.
Very hard map to keep a grouped team.

[Hit the Deck]

I just came to realize that Assaults are usually the most timid. More often than not, they just hide and spam LRMs if they can't get a line of sight of the enemies. When I play medium or support/scout mechs (which usually is), it makes me want to punch them in the face.

[Tim East]

Hit the Deck, on 10 January 2015 - 11:27 PM, said:

More often than not, they just hide and spam LRMs if they can't get a line of sight of the enemies.

A little bit contradictory, that statement. If they can't get LoS to their enemies, it implies that they are unable to engage them directly, not unwilling to. In such a case, would you rather they not at least try to soften the enemy up in whatever meager way they can with indirect fire?

However, I am familiar with the phenomena of assaults that sit back and avoid conflict in favor of LRM fire. For most assaults this is a highly team-dependent strategy, which makes it pretty high-risk in PUGs. They have to rely on their team to get good locks, not die while the LRM-ing strips armor, and finish off the enemy. I've seen Stalkers LRM from the front, and Awesomes cower in the back, but the only one that really irks me is when you get an Atlas with like 2 launchers who sits in the back and tickles the enemy without moving forward as he does so. The DDC and the S can mount more than 2 launchers, but due to the tube count they aren't great LRM-boats. All the rest are just terrible and should feel terrible for trying to do that.

I mount LRMs on my Atlas S not to boat, but to give me a method of at least trying to help my team while they hurl themselves against the enemy line instead of waiting for me to catch up to them. I only go like 50 kph, so there are a lot of times that people aren't willing to wait for me. I just feel like if I don't AC20 something, I didn't do my part.

[Void Angel]

Kahadras, on 10 January 2015 - 04:19 PM, said:

What annoys me is that you'll let people know where the enemy is and they ignore you. I was in a game on Canyon Network today and was screaming for help at C5. I ended up trying to hold off two lances with one other player while the rest of the team milled around indecisively. The only guy who moved up to help went down, then I went down, then the rest of our team got rolled up one at a time.

Few people seem to use chat or bother reading what other people are saying. I wouldn't have minded so much if people had left me to die and formed some kind of meaningful firing line towards C5/C4. Instead they presented an open flank and the opposing team picked them off 1 by 1. It's depressing to die early on in a game. It's even worse to die early on, have almost nobody lift a finger to help and ignore all the your warnings.

joelmuzz, on 10 January 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:

Probably desensitized to people calling for help/attack in unreachable canyons on that map.
For all the non JJ's the canyon/hilltop next door may as well be the other side of the map.
Very hard map to keep a grouped team.

I've had that happen many times. It's why I wrote both this guide and my other offering, and why I felt driven to understand what was happening. What you're seeing in many cases is herd mentality in action. Most players have some idea that they need to work together, and that simply running off is a Bad Thing. But if no one takes the first step, players may just proceed along with the team, doing the same thing they normally do on that map, and not react until it's too late. It's also hard for some players, particularly new people, to focus on what's coming up on text chat while their fighting - I've missed chat messages many times because I'm staring down my sights servicing targets. They may also not realize the tactical import of what you're telling them. When you see they're just going to get rolled, it's a better use of your time to just duck out of spectating the match and drop in another Battlemech.

Hit the Deck, on 10 January 2015 - 11:27 PM, said:

I just came to realize that Assaults are usually the most timid. More often than not, they just hide and spam LRMs if they can't get a line of sight of the enemies. When I play medium or support/scout mechs (which usually is), it makes me want to punch them in the face.

Assaults are often the most cautious - which can indeed become timidity - because of the Maxim of Irrevocability. Simply stated: many actions an assault 'mech takes are irrevocable. If the Atlas on your team makes the decision to leave cover and advance, he often cannot revoke that decision. He's just to slow; he'd take lethal damage trying to turn around and get back into cover, so he has to commit. Combined with the vicious cycle encouraging ranged combat - and the fact that several Assault chassis make excellent missile boats - this often makes an Assault driver too hesitant to commit to a course of action and accept the damage that action entails. This is definitely frustrating and counterproductive behavior, but remember that they're doing it for a reason, not just being cowardly or dumb. Try to remember that they've been trained to be that way, because if you let their actions get to you, well...

They'll make you stupid.

Seriously, they will; neuroscientific research has shown that when people get angry, their ability to perform higher reasoning functions is reduced. I have to apologize for not sourcing this, but my Google search feed is clogged with touchy-feely self-help and better living blogs to the point I can't get at the source research. Regardless, it's pretty well established that when you get significantly frustrated, your brain starts to go from "let's think about a solution to this dilemma and resolve it with rational decision-making and action, good sir" to 'HIT WITH ROCK!" This is useful when we're in a dangerous situation, but less so in a simulated dangerous situation - and not at all when the simulated situation requires higher decision-making to excel.

This is also an additional reasoning - aside from basic courtesy - for never raging at your teammates, no matter how much they deserve it. They may indeed be the kind of people Margaret Sanger warned us about, but telling them so is never going to help them play better (nor was Sanger actually right.) It will just make them play more poorly, and may (depending on the game and situation) make them decide to actively grief you.

[Kahadras]

Quote

Probably desensitized to people calling for help/attack in unreachable canyons on that map.
For all the non JJ's the canyon/hilltop next door may as well be the other side of the map.
Very hard map to keep a grouped team.

It is hard to group up on Canyon Network but it was the general lack of effort in that game that concerned me. Although I couldn't stand up to a lance of heavy mechs by myself I felt that I could buy time for the rest of the group to at least get formed up and orientated by performing a fighting withdrawl. It's disappointing to see it wasted as you watch one team member after another get slaughtered in hopelessly poor positions at the bottom of various canyons.

I'm a great believer in 'moving to contact'. Grouping up with teammates is a good idea but I'm always careful to identify who people are grouping up with. In one game I played in we had half the team move up while the other half followed a Stalker around as it tried to find a good sniping position. If you've got teammates who are already in contact with the enemy move up and support them! Give the other team more stuff to worry about.

Edited by Kahadras, 19 January 2015 - 05:13 AM.

[Void Angel]

Quite right; similarly to Appendix I, you want to be on the attack whenever possible. Engaging in passive defense will more often than not get you killed - essentially, you are flipping a coin to see if the enemy does something stupid before your team does.

I don't agree that Canyon Network is terribly hard to group up in, however. It does tempt people with jump jets to go haring off, but usually you can get up to the top level if you know what you're doing, and there are generally several covered avenues to take en route to any point on the map you want to attack anyway - so you really can stay grouped up.

[Kahadras]

When I first started playing I found Canyon Network one of the harder maps to 'figure out' where to go. Especialy in none JJ mechs. I think it's a map like Alpine Peaks that can really hurt teams who don't know what they are doing. With Canyon Network new players get lost or concentrate in bad positions on the map.

[purplewasabi]

As a short range assault brawler pilot who constantly gets left for dead in the frontlines...

Thank you for understanding.

*sheds manly tears*

[Void Angel]

I was "maining" an Atlas when I wrote both these guides. =)

[purplewasabi]

Void Angel, on 13 January 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

I was "maining" an Atlas when I wrote both these guides. =)

I am currently maining the atlases and it gets really frustrating sometimes that I'm trending towards a kamikaze play style. Not ideal but...sigh

Thanks for taking the time to write up those guides. It helped a bunch when I got into a unit and doing group drops.

Edit: Read the appendix in the OP. I can say the fine art of ambush is not lost. Despite bull-rush tactics which I deeply enjoy I much prefer the "spooky atlas" approach.

Edited by purplewasabi, 13 January 2015 - 07:59 PM.

[Void Angel]

Heheh. Training the competition, am I?

[NoName2341]

This really is a great topic with great discussion going on. As an assault pilot I can confidently say that two well placed assaults will win you a game that seems like you just can't win. Just because an assault isn't attacking doesn't mean they are timid it usually means they are waiting for an opportunity to strike. On more than one occasion have I been at the right place at the right time to stop the enemy team from flanking our team thus winning them the game. So far the whole time I have played MWO the best thing I have done is flank the enemy team on alpine peaks with my direworlf one warhawk and a locust. It was about 7 minutes into the game a and our team had five mechs left and the enemy team had ten mechs left. Now us three flanking were at the bottom moving up to hit them from behind and we had adequate scouting because the light with us knew how important scouting is. The other two mechs on the other hand were fending off the enemy ten in a valiant rush to draw their attention. That was the most crucial part as at that time our light drew three of them away from the main group to chase him down. Unknowingly of them there were two assaults moving in to attack. While us three were fairly un damaged the opposing team was mostly stripped of armor and a few components here and there. The first three that fell to us made the mistake of trying to run back to the main group rather than trying to damage us. They fell very quickly as most of their back armor was stripped. Now we were more or less 400 yards out from the main group of the surviving seven mechs who were still trying to finish off the last one of the valiant rush who was dashing in and out of their legs causing general chaos leaving us an opportunity to start firing on them for a good 15 seconds before getting noticed. In that time us three who were flanking managed to take out their three largest remaining mechs. This only left the clean up of the remaining four who at this point had no chance of winning even though it was even on both sides with four mechs surviving on both teams. Because while it was even numbers wise our team had two assault mechs in good condition a locust who had taken a few hits and a light badly damaged. Whereas on the opposing team there was one light missing a leg a badly damaged heavy a medium in fairly good condition and a LRM boat stalker who was essentially useless now as his ammo had run dry. All that was left was the clean up. The reason this story is pertinent is because while our team was holding off the main force of enemies the warhawk was on the side picking off two mechs trying to flank us while I moved into help him. If I wasn't hesitant about going up the mountain (mainly because inclines are my one weakness) I wouldn't have been able to help the warhawk who was originally moving into a position to flank them. If I weren't there the warhawk wouldn't have tried to flank and the locust wouldn't have provided scouting and we most certainly would have lost that game because of bad positioning on our teams part. This is why when you see an assault hiding you don't say they are timid as they are just waiting for the correct opportunity to strike and win the game by cutting off an escape route or by flanking an unsuspecting group of mechs. I'm not saying that every assault is doing this when they hide I am just saying that a hiding assault doesn't mean they are timid it may just mean they are strategizing. Now I realize this topic has been gone over but I feel the need to share this because how can someone understand an assault without having an assault be their main mech. The answer is they can't understand so I give you this story from my perspective as an assault who barely does anything but play assault. This may not be a good story or written well but I hope you can understand the premise of it and what I intended it for.

[Shade4x]

Void Angel, on 13 January 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

I was "maining" an Atlas when I wrote both these guides. =)

Man i remember when you wrote the original guide. After coming back to the game after a long break, it seems many people have read this and commented on it, but almost no one follows it.

There has been this trend now, where lights will call a charge. This usually comes from some light who is sitting in the back, calling the charge so that they can steal kills, then cry to the team about how the team sucks and they where awesome with their 87 damage game and 2 kills.

This game is littered with "Commander Ralph's" the gaming equivailant of arm chair quarterbacks. Guy's who will misquote sun tzu, and file the same action of "Wait for them to charge" as "strategy", and never miss a change to try and "Lead" the team to a loss. I really don't see it changing. You talk the psychology of the game's possitive reinforcement of bad behavior, which i agree with and is insightful, however you do realize the most successful way to counteract that is negative reinforcement of bad behavior. In other words, if we start shooting our own team when they hide or refuse to commit to a charge with an atlas, they most likely will stop.

So I would like to propose an idea, a risky but awesome idea. Any time you find one of these commander ralph types, who are hiding behind a rock, and letting their team die.... shoot em. Just blow off an arm or two. It's the only way we are going to solve this problem. In fact i'm going to wear a blue ribbon on my mech to support this idea.

[Kahadras]

I don't think people are expecting assault mechs to do all the work on the team but they need to take point once contact has been made with the enemy. Assaults need to be the initative takers; deciding when and where the rest of the team is going. They also need to be dealing damage as they can easily pack more firepower than any of my medium mechs can.

Obviously things are very subjective. My perspective comes from somebody who plays medium mechs and I don't have the mobility issuses that come with piloting assaults. What I do want are good assault pilots on my team. A timid light pilot is no where near as damaging to the team as a timid assult mech pilot IMHO.

[Tim East]

Shade4x, on 20 January 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

In other words, if we start shooting our own team when they hide or refuse to commit to a charge with an atlas, they most likely will stop.

So I would like to propose an idea, a risky but awesome idea. Any time you find one of these commander ralph types, who are hiding behind a rock, and letting their team die.... shoot em. Just blow off an arm or two. It's the only way we are going to solve this problem. In fact i'm going to wear a blue ribbon on my mech to support this idea.

And then he was banned.

Seriously though, you can't roll around damaging your teammates and expect to win, or even get them to listen to you. It's obnoxious, and people don't like it.

As a light pilot primarily, I've come to the conclusion that it is better to treat it as an attention game. If the enemy is paying attention to your teammates, you should make a pass at them and try to draw their attention to you. If the enemy is paying attention to you, you should lead them away from where they are, because they'll typically end up out of position relative to your teammates and get fragged. If they won't follow the cookie though...well, there isn't a lot you can do as a light at that point, and that's where assaults actually assaulting things comes into play, because when assaults charge, people pay attention to them. When people pay attention to the assaults on your team, they are not paying attention to the lights, which leads us back to what you do when people are paying attention to your team instead of you. Yay cyclical flow charts!

Edited by Tim East, 20 January 2015 - 11:44 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

NoName2341, on 20 January 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

This really is a great topic with great discussion going on. As an assault pilot I can confidently say that two well placed assaults will win you a game that seems like you just can't win. Just because an assault isn't attacking doesn't mean they are timid it usually means they are waiting for an opportunity to strike. On more than one occasion have I been at the right place at the right time to stop the enemy team from flanking our team thus winning them the game. So far the whole time I have played MWO the best thing I have done is flank the enemy team on alpine peaks with my direworlf one warhawk and a locust. It was about 7 minutes into the game a and our team had five mechs left and the enemy team had ten mechs left. Now us three flanking were at the bottom moving up to hit them from behind and we had adequate scouting because the light with us knew how important scouting is. The other two mechs on the other hand were fending off the enemy ten in a valiant rush to draw their attention. That was the most crucial part as at that time our light drew three of them away from the main group to chase him down. Unknowingly of them there were two assaults moving in to attack. While us three were fairly un damaged the opposing team was mostly stripped of armor and a few components here and there. The first three that fell to us made the mistake of trying to run back to the main group rather than trying to damage us. They fell very quickly as most of their back armor was stripped. Now we were more or less 400 yards out from the main group of the surviving seven mechs who were still trying to finish off the last one of the valiant rush who was dashing in and out of their legs causing general chaos leaving us an opportunity to start firing on them for a good 15 seconds before getting noticed. In that time us three who were flanking managed to take out their three largest remaining mechs. This only left the clean up of the remaining four who at this point had no chance of winning even though it was even on both sides with four mechs surviving on both teams. Because while it was even numbers wise our team had two assault mechs in good condition a locust who had taken a few hits and a light badly damaged. Whereas on the opposing team there was one light missing a leg a badly damaged heavy a medium in fairly good condition and a LRM boat stalker who was essentially useless now as his ammo had run dry. All that was left was the clean up. The reason this story is pertinent is because while our team was holding off the main force of enemies the warhawk was on the side picking off two mechs trying to flank us while I moved into help him. If I wasn't hesitant about going up the mountain (mainly because inclines are my one weakness) I wouldn't have been able to help the warhawk who was originally moving into a position to flank them. If I weren't there the warhawk wouldn't have tried to flank and the locust wouldn't have provided scouting and we most certainly would have lost that game because of bad positioning on our teams part. This is why when you see an assault hiding you don't say they are timid as they are just waiting for the correct opportunity to strike and win the game by cutting off an escape route or by flanking an unsuspecting group of mechs. I'm not saying that every assault is doing this when they hide I am just saying that a hiding assault doesn't mean they are timid it may just mean they are strategizing. Now I realize this topic has been gone over but I feel the need to share this because how can someone understand an assault without having an assault be their main mech. The answer is they can't understand so I give you this story from my perspective as an assault who barely does anything but play assault. This may not be a good story or written well but I hope you can understand the premise of it and what I intended it for.

I would recommend breaking the post down to paragraphs. I read it, but it gets dizzying after a bit.

[Void Angel]

Shade4x, on 20 January 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

So I would like to propose an idea, a risky but awesome idea. Any time you find one of these commander ralph types, who are hiding behind a rock, and letting their team die.... shoot em. Just blow off an arm or two. It's the only way we are going to solve this problem. In fact i'm going to wear a blue ribbon on my mech to support this idea.

Oh hells no. First, even if there were no other considerations, like the ToS we all agreed to follow, you're still not applying the negative reinforcement you're looking for. Your teammates aren't going to associate your team killing or crippling them as a result of hiding when they should fight; they're going to (rightly) see it as a consequence of ticking you off - and your reasons for being ticked will often not make sense to them. Then there's the assumption that we will always understand the entire situation on the battlefield; this is unwarrantedly optimistic, I'm afraid. There are instances where even an Assault needs to stay out of the line of fire and let his team fight - a Brawler Atlas waiting for the engagement range to close is perhaps a textbook example. Then there's the problem of infighting crippling your team - because I guarantee you, if you start slicing the arms off of your teammates, he (and likely bystanders) are going to fight back. This will lead to a loss, which will quite reasonably lead players to conclude that team-killing and pecking is a Bad Idea, as well.

What you're proposing isn't really a solution; it's just mob violence and vigilantism. As existentially satisfying as the thought of shooting some of my teammates in the mouth-hole may be, I cannot endorse this practice; nor do I wish to. This is just a formalized suggestion that we follow the practice one poster I saw reported of a teammate: blasting the poster in the back - because he "looked too fresh."