777 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

Kahadras, on 10 January 2015 - 04:19 PM, said:

What annoys me is that you'll let people know where the enemy is and they ignore you. I was in a game on Canyon Network today and was screaming for help at C5. I ended up trying to hold off two lances with one other player while the rest of the team milled around indecisively. The only guy who moved up to help went down, then I went down, then the rest of our team got rolled up one at a time.

Few people seem to use chat or bother reading what other people are saying. I wouldn't have minded so much if people had left me to die and formed some kind of meaningful firing line towards C5/C4. Instead they presented an open flank and the opposing team picked them off 1 by 1. It's depressing to die early on in a game. It's even worse to die early on, have almost nobody lift a finger to help and ignore all the your warnings.

joelmuzz, on 10 January 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:

Probably desensitized to people calling for help/attack in unreachable canyons on that map.
For all the non JJ's the canyon/hilltop next door may as well be the other side of the map.
Very hard map to keep a grouped team.

I've had that happen many times. It's why I wrote both this guide and my other offering, and why I felt driven to understand what was happening. What you're seeing in many cases is herd mentality in action. Most players have some idea that they need to work together, and that simply running off is a Bad Thing. But if no one takes the first step, players may just proceed along with the team, doing the same thing they normally do on that map, and not react until it's too late. It's also hard for some players, particularly new people, to focus on what's coming up on text chat while their fighting - I've missed chat messages many times because I'm staring down my sights servicing targets. They may also not realize the tactical import of what you're telling them. When you see they're just going to get rolled, it's a better use of your time to just duck out of spectating the match and drop in another Battlemech.

Hit the Deck, on 10 January 2015 - 11:27 PM, said:

I just came to realize that Assaults are usually the most timid. More often than not, they just hide and spam LRMs if they can't get a line of sight of the enemies. When I play medium or support/scout mechs (which usually is), it makes me want to punch them in the face.

Assaults are often the most cautious - which can indeed become timidity - because of the Maxim of Irrevocability. Simply stated: many actions an assault 'mech takes are irrevocable. If the Atlas on your team makes the decision to leave cover and advance, he often cannot revoke that decision. He's just to slow; he'd take lethal damage trying to turn around and get back into cover, so he has to commit. Combined with the vicious cycle encouraging ranged combat - and the fact that several Assault chassis make excellent missile boats - this often makes an Assault driver too hesitant to commit to a course of action and accept the damage that action entails. This is definitely frustrating and counterproductive behavior, but remember that they're doing it for a reason, not just being cowardly or dumb. Try to remember that they've been trained to be that way, because if you let their actions get to you, well...

They'll make you stupid.

Seriously, they will; neuroscientific research has shown that when people get angry, their ability to perform higher reasoning functions is reduced. I have to apologize for not sourcing this, but my Google search feed is clogged with touchy-feely self-help and better living blogs to the point I can't get at the source research. Regardless, it's pretty well established that when you get significantly frustrated, your brain starts to go from "let's think about a solution to this dilemma and resolve it with rational decision-making and action, good sir" to 'HIT WITH ROCK!" This is useful when we're in a dangerous situation, but less so in a simulated dangerous situation - and not at all when the simulated situation requires higher decision-making to excel.

This is also an additional reasoning - aside from basic courtesy - for never raging at your teammates, no matter how much they deserve it. They may indeed be the kind of people Margaret Sanger warned us about, but telling them so is never going to help them play better (nor was Sanger actually right.) It will just make them play more poorly, and may (depending on the game and situation) make them decide to actively grief you.

[Kahadras]

Quote

Probably desensitized to people calling for help/attack in unreachable canyons on that map.
For all the non JJ's the canyon/hilltop next door may as well be the other side of the map.
Very hard map to keep a grouped team.

It is hard to group up on Canyon Network but it was the general lack of effort in that game that concerned me. Although I couldn't stand up to a lance of heavy mechs by myself I felt that I could buy time for the rest of the group to at least get formed up and orientated by performing a fighting withdrawl. It's disappointing to see it wasted as you watch one team member after another get slaughtered in hopelessly poor positions at the bottom of various canyons.

I'm a great believer in 'moving to contact'. Grouping up with teammates is a good idea but I'm always careful to identify who people are grouping up with. In one game I played in we had half the team move up while the other half followed a Stalker around as it tried to find a good sniping position. If you've got teammates who are already in contact with the enemy move up and support them! Give the other team more stuff to worry about.

Edited by Kahadras, 19 January 2015 - 05:13 AM.

[Void Angel]

Quite right; similarly to Appendix I, you want to be on the attack whenever possible. Engaging in passive defense will more often than not get you killed - essentially, you are flipping a coin to see if the enemy does something stupid before your team does.

I don't agree that Canyon Network is terribly hard to group up in, however. It does tempt people with jump jets to go haring off, but usually you can get up to the top level if you know what you're doing, and there are generally several covered avenues to take en route to any point on the map you want to attack anyway - so you really can stay grouped up.

[Kahadras]

When I first started playing I found Canyon Network one of the harder maps to 'figure out' where to go. Especialy in none JJ mechs. I think it's a map like Alpine Peaks that can really hurt teams who don't know what they are doing. With Canyon Network new players get lost or concentrate in bad positions on the map.

[purplewasabi]

As a short range assault brawler pilot who constantly gets left for dead in the frontlines...

Thank you for understanding.

*sheds manly tears*

[Void Angel]

I was "maining" an Atlas when I wrote both these guides. =)

[purplewasabi]

Void Angel, on 13 January 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

I was "maining" an Atlas when I wrote both these guides. =)

I am currently maining the atlases and it gets really frustrating sometimes that I'm trending towards a kamikaze play style. Not ideal but...sigh

Thanks for taking the time to write up those guides. It helped a bunch when I got into a unit and doing group drops.

Edit: Read the appendix in the OP. I can say the fine art of ambush is not lost. Despite bull-rush tactics which I deeply enjoy I much prefer the "spooky atlas" approach.

Edited by purplewasabi, 13 January 2015 - 07:59 PM.

[Void Angel]

Heheh. Training the competition, am I?

[NoName2341]

This really is a great topic with great discussion going on. As an assault pilot I can confidently say that two well placed assaults will win you a game that seems like you just can't win. Just because an assault isn't attacking doesn't mean they are timid it usually means they are waiting for an opportunity to strike. On more than one occasion have I been at the right place at the right time to stop the enemy team from flanking our team thus winning them the game. So far the whole time I have played MWO the best thing I have done is flank the enemy team on alpine peaks with my direworlf one warhawk and a locust. It was about 7 minutes into the game a and our team had five mechs left and the enemy team had ten mechs left. Now us three flanking were at the bottom moving up to hit them from behind and we had adequate scouting because the light with us knew how important scouting is. The other two mechs on the other hand were fending off the enemy ten in a valiant rush to draw their attention. That was the most crucial part as at that time our light drew three of them away from the main group to chase him down. Unknowingly of them there were two assaults moving in to attack. While us three were fairly un damaged the opposing team was mostly stripped of armor and a few components here and there. The first three that fell to us made the mistake of trying to run back to the main group rather than trying to damage us. They fell very quickly as most of their back armor was stripped. Now we were more or less 400 yards out from the main group of the surviving seven mechs who were still trying to finish off the last one of the valiant rush who was dashing in and out of their legs causing general chaos leaving us an opportunity to start firing on them for a good 15 seconds before getting noticed. In that time us three who were flanking managed to take out their three largest remaining mechs. This only left the clean up of the remaining four who at this point had no chance of winning even though it was even on both sides with four mechs surviving on both teams. Because while it was even numbers wise our team had two assault mechs in good condition a locust who had taken a few hits and a light badly damaged. Whereas on the opposing team there was one light missing a leg a badly damaged heavy a medium in fairly good condition and a LRM boat stalker who was essentially useless now as his ammo had run dry. All that was left was the clean up. The reason this story is pertinent is because while our team was holding off the main force of enemies the warhawk was on the side picking off two mechs trying to flank us while I moved into help him. If I wasn't hesitant about going up the mountain (mainly because inclines are my one weakness) I wouldn't have been able to help the warhawk who was originally moving into a position to flank them. If I weren't there the warhawk wouldn't have tried to flank and the locust wouldn't have provided scouting and we most certainly would have lost that game because of bad positioning on our teams part. This is why when you see an assault hiding you don't say they are timid as they are just waiting for the correct opportunity to strike and win the game by cutting off an escape route or by flanking an unsuspecting group of mechs. I'm not saying that every assault is doing this when they hide I am just saying that a hiding assault doesn't mean they are timid it may just mean they are strategizing. Now I realize this topic has been gone over but I feel the need to share this because how can someone understand an assault without having an assault be their main mech. The answer is they can't understand so I give you this story from my perspective as an assault who barely does anything but play assault. This may not be a good story or written well but I hope you can understand the premise of it and what I intended it for.

[Shade4x]

Void Angel, on 13 January 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

I was "maining" an Atlas when I wrote both these guides. =)

Man i remember when you wrote the original guide. After coming back to the game after a long break, it seems many people have read this and commented on it, but almost no one follows it.

There has been this trend now, where lights will call a charge. This usually comes from some light who is sitting in the back, calling the charge so that they can steal kills, then cry to the team about how the team sucks and they where awesome with their 87 damage game and 2 kills.

This game is littered with "Commander Ralph's" the gaming equivailant of arm chair quarterbacks. Guy's who will misquote sun tzu, and file the same action of "Wait for them to charge" as "strategy", and never miss a change to try and "Lead" the team to a loss. I really don't see it changing. You talk the psychology of the game's possitive reinforcement of bad behavior, which i agree with and is insightful, however you do realize the most successful way to counteract that is negative reinforcement of bad behavior. In other words, if we start shooting our own team when they hide or refuse to commit to a charge with an atlas, they most likely will stop.

So I would like to propose an idea, a risky but awesome idea. Any time you find one of these commander ralph types, who are hiding behind a rock, and letting their team die.... shoot em. Just blow off an arm or two. It's the only way we are going to solve this problem. In fact i'm going to wear a blue ribbon on my mech to support this idea.

[Kahadras]

I don't think people are expecting assault mechs to do all the work on the team but they need to take point once contact has been made with the enemy. Assaults need to be the initative takers; deciding when and where the rest of the team is going. They also need to be dealing damage as they can easily pack more firepower than any of my medium mechs can.

Obviously things are very subjective. My perspective comes from somebody who plays medium mechs and I don't have the mobility issuses that come with piloting assaults. What I do want are good assault pilots on my team. A timid light pilot is no where near as damaging to the team as a timid assult mech pilot IMHO.

[Tim East]

Shade4x, on 20 January 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

In other words, if we start shooting our own team when they hide or refuse to commit to a charge with an atlas, they most likely will stop.

So I would like to propose an idea, a risky but awesome idea. Any time you find one of these commander ralph types, who are hiding behind a rock, and letting their team die.... shoot em. Just blow off an arm or two. It's the only way we are going to solve this problem. In fact i'm going to wear a blue ribbon on my mech to support this idea.

And then he was banned.

Seriously though, you can't roll around damaging your teammates and expect to win, or even get them to listen to you. It's obnoxious, and people don't like it.

As a light pilot primarily, I've come to the conclusion that it is better to treat it as an attention game. If the enemy is paying attention to your teammates, you should make a pass at them and try to draw their attention to you. If the enemy is paying attention to you, you should lead them away from where they are, because they'll typically end up out of position relative to your teammates and get fragged. If they won't follow the cookie though...well, there isn't a lot you can do as a light at that point, and that's where assaults actually assaulting things comes into play, because when assaults charge, people pay attention to them. When people pay attention to the assaults on your team, they are not paying attention to the lights, which leads us back to what you do when people are paying attention to your team instead of you. Yay cyclical flow charts!

Edited by Tim East, 20 January 2015 - 11:44 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

NoName2341, on 20 January 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

This really is a great topic with great discussion going on. As an assault pilot I can confidently say that two well placed assaults will win you a game that seems like you just can't win. Just because an assault isn't attacking doesn't mean they are timid it usually means they are waiting for an opportunity to strike. On more than one occasion have I been at the right place at the right time to stop the enemy team from flanking our team thus winning them the game. So far the whole time I have played MWO the best thing I have done is flank the enemy team on alpine peaks with my direworlf one warhawk and a locust. It was about 7 minutes into the game a and our team had five mechs left and the enemy team had ten mechs left. Now us three flanking were at the bottom moving up to hit them from behind and we had adequate scouting because the light with us knew how important scouting is. The other two mechs on the other hand were fending off the enemy ten in a valiant rush to draw their attention. That was the most crucial part as at that time our light drew three of them away from the main group to chase him down. Unknowingly of them there were two assaults moving in to attack. While us three were fairly un damaged the opposing team was mostly stripped of armor and a few components here and there. The first three that fell to us made the mistake of trying to run back to the main group rather than trying to damage us. They fell very quickly as most of their back armor was stripped. Now we were more or less 400 yards out from the main group of the surviving seven mechs who were still trying to finish off the last one of the valiant rush who was dashing in and out of their legs causing general chaos leaving us an opportunity to start firing on them for a good 15 seconds before getting noticed. In that time us three who were flanking managed to take out their three largest remaining mechs. This only left the clean up of the remaining four who at this point had no chance of winning even though it was even on both sides with four mechs surviving on both teams. Because while it was even numbers wise our team had two assault mechs in good condition a locust who had taken a few hits and a light badly damaged. Whereas on the opposing team there was one light missing a leg a badly damaged heavy a medium in fairly good condition and a LRM boat stalker who was essentially useless now as his ammo had run dry. All that was left was the clean up. The reason this story is pertinent is because while our team was holding off the main force of enemies the warhawk was on the side picking off two mechs trying to flank us while I moved into help him. If I wasn't hesitant about going up the mountain (mainly because inclines are my one weakness) I wouldn't have been able to help the warhawk who was originally moving into a position to flank them. If I weren't there the warhawk wouldn't have tried to flank and the locust wouldn't have provided scouting and we most certainly would have lost that game because of bad positioning on our teams part. This is why when you see an assault hiding you don't say they are timid as they are just waiting for the correct opportunity to strike and win the game by cutting off an escape route or by flanking an unsuspecting group of mechs. I'm not saying that every assault is doing this when they hide I am just saying that a hiding assault doesn't mean they are timid it may just mean they are strategizing. Now I realize this topic has been gone over but I feel the need to share this because how can someone understand an assault without having an assault be their main mech. The answer is they can't understand so I give you this story from my perspective as an assault who barely does anything but play assault. This may not be a good story or written well but I hope you can understand the premise of it and what I intended it for.

I would recommend breaking the post down to paragraphs. I read it, but it gets dizzying after a bit.

[Void Angel]

Shade4x, on 20 January 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

So I would like to propose an idea, a risky but awesome idea. Any time you find one of these commander ralph types, who are hiding behind a rock, and letting their team die.... shoot em. Just blow off an arm or two. It's the only way we are going to solve this problem. In fact i'm going to wear a blue ribbon on my mech to support this idea.

Oh hells no. First, even if there were no other considerations, like the ToS we all agreed to follow, you're still not applying the negative reinforcement you're looking for. Your teammates aren't going to associate your team killing or crippling them as a result of hiding when they should fight; they're going to (rightly) see it as a consequence of ticking you off - and your reasons for being ticked will often not make sense to them. Then there's the assumption that we will always understand the entire situation on the battlefield; this is unwarrantedly optimistic, I'm afraid. There are instances where even an Assault needs to stay out of the line of fire and let his team fight - a Brawler Atlas waiting for the engagement range to close is perhaps a textbook example. Then there's the problem of infighting crippling your team - because I guarantee you, if you start slicing the arms off of your teammates, he (and likely bystanders) are going to fight back. This will lead to a loss, which will quite reasonably lead players to conclude that team-killing and pecking is a Bad Idea, as well.

What you're proposing isn't really a solution; it's just mob violence and vigilantism. As existentially satisfying as the thought of shooting some of my teammates in the mouth-hole may be, I cannot endorse this practice; nor do I wish to. This is just a formalized suggestion that we follow the practice one poster I saw reported of a teammate: blasting the poster in the back - because he "looked too fresh."

[Void Angel]

NoName2341, on 20 January 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

This really is a great topic with great discussion going on. As an assault pilot I can confidently say that two well placed assaults will win you a game that seems like you just can't win. Just because an assault isn't attacking doesn't mean they are timid it usually means they are waiting for an opportunity to strike. [Edited for space; story in backlink, if anyone wants to reference]

Thanks for the compliment, but omgwalloftext! Formatting, man! Formatting!

I do have to disagree with you a bit, though - very often an assault is hanging back because they're not wanting to take the hits. This may be because they don't trust the team to support them, or because they've embraced the toxic attitude of viewing their teammates as cannon fodder and shields, or because they're trapped in the passive hide-and-see mentality the game trains into the unwary - but it's usually not because they're waiting for the right moment to jump into the fray. The story you told is a case in point of timidity working against a team - the enemy had numerical superiority for most of the match, but they hid and peeked - taking turns at getting shot by your remaining teammates - instead of moving in to make use of their crushing numerical superiority. Certainly your flanking maneuver succeeded, but if they had moved up to fight like they should have, they'd have crushed your team while you were maneuvering on the flank, then turned and mopped you up. Instead, they cowered at your team even when up a significant number of kills, did no scouting, and ran instead of fighting when caught.

Maneuvering on the field is great, and you should keep doing it; timing and commitment are also important, and I hope you keep that up as well. But while your story does illustrate what I'm trying to get at in this guide beautifully, it's not necessarily supporting the point you were making in your post. =)

Edited by Void Angel, 04 February 2015 - 03:23 PM.

[purplewasabi]

Shade4x, on 20 January 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

So I would like to propose an idea, a risky but awesome idea. Any time you find one of these commander ralph types, who are hiding behind a rock, and letting their team die.... shoot em. Just blow off an arm or two. It's the only way we are going to solve this problem. In fact i'm going to wear a blue ribbon on my mech to support this idea.

I remember the last time someone did this to me while I was in my Atlas. Verbal abuse to shooting lasers at my back. It was on Terra Therma, on one of the narrow ramps. When my rear CT was cored, I turned around. Took him and some of his cronies out before I went down.

Forgive me master for I have sinned. I know its wrong, but it felt soooooo good watching him trying to run away, his own cronies blocking his escape.

edit: Was peeking/scouting with my Atlas because there were no volunteers. Makes sense to be extra cautious.

Edited by purplewasabi, 05 February 2015 - 03:30 PM.

[rolling thunder]

Shade4x, on 20 January 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

So I would like to propose an idea, a risky but awesome idea. Any time you find one of these commander ralph types, who are hiding behind a rock, and letting their team die.... shoot em. Just blow off an arm or two. It's the only way we are going to solve this problem. In fact i'm going to wear a blue ribbon on my mech to support this idea.

I don't like this idea at all. In fact it would spoil any game for me if it happened to me or I saw it happening to someone else. I would report the behaviour. I don't agree with shooting any team mate for any reason {unless they are attacking you}. It bugs me getting shot by people "testing" their weapons{that is what the testing grounds are for}. You don't see people with real firearms test shooting the weapons before going on the range {I know these aren't real weapons} .It may only take 1% off your health but that may make a difference??

[Chaosbarbarian]

Just want to put a word in supporting Void Angel, Obviously I don't post alot, but I do play alot and read alot. It has been my experience generally getting back to the point, that in pug games especially the tactic is to "sheep",

Ie. all follow the first one to move away even slightly from the group, even if they are just repositioning!!, suddenly two mechs move past the repositioning one and then he too follows them and so on.

Its like in a playground fight, everybody stands off until some poor fool engages (and he usually gets killed first) or until one side looks like losing and then its chase the routers.

Timidity may not be a tactic but it sure is the basis of most games

[Void Angel]

Thanks, man! You left out the inverse of your movement technique - everyone standing around trying to hide behind each other. I call it "flockasheeping." For a fun project, look at your map about 15 seconds after the first volley of enemy LRMs comes rolling in - chances are, all the blue/green triangles are going to be huddled together pointing a couple different directions. It looks like a flock of frightened sheep.

Because of the way the game trains passivity into us, many players will try to feel their way along just as you describe; when no one moves, they'll sort of mill around and either camp or peek around corners to take turns getting shot in the face by several enemies at a time. Many times it becomes very difficult for them to make a decision after this, because not only is their teammates' inaction (combined with scary incoming fire) paralyzing their little sheep-brains, but, since nobody has eyes on the battlefield any more, it's hard to know where the enemy players really are.

[Void Angel]

purplewasabi, on 04 February 2015 - 12:33 AM, said:

I remember the last time someone did this to me while I was in my Atlas. Verbal abuse to shooting lasers at my back. It was on Terra Therma, on one of the narrow ramps. When my rear CT was cored, I turned around. Took him and some of his cronies out before I went down.

Forgive me master for I have sinned. I know its wrong, but it felt soooooo good watching him trying to run away, his cronies blocking his escape.

edit: Was peeking/scouting with my Atlas because there were no volunteers. Makes sense to be extra cautious.

rolling thunder, on 04 February 2015 - 02:33 AM, said:

I don't like this idea at all. In fact it would spoil any game for me if it happened to me or I saw it happening to someone else. I would report the behaviour. I don't agree with shooting any team mate for any reason {unless they are attacking you}.

Yeah, as I Pointed Out to Him, shooting your teammates isn't ok. It screws up the flow of the game and tends to take people out of combat. I remember having to leg a Hunchback a while ago, to prevent him from lasering the rest of us in the back as we tried to run Terra Therma. The goon had opened the match by blasting our locust in the back before he could move at the start of the match - then he proved it wasn't an accident by waiting for the rest of the team to leave then going after the Spider who'd come back to look the situation over. He wasn't very good - presumably he self-destructed after I legged him. Still the match was close, but being down three 'Mechs at the start of combat just wasn't recoverable for our team.

So! Don't do that crap - self-defense is one thing, and only as a last resort, but we do not vent our frustrations on our teamates by verbal harassment or weapons fire; if we cannot play nicely with the other children, it's time to go sit in the corner - or just to stay home.

As a postscript, however, allow me to suggest that no matter what the situation, peeking into the caldera on Terra Therma is seldom a good practice? If they're in there, you're going to take turns getting shot by most or all of their team, and if they're not there, you should be moving in to control the area.

Edited by Void Angel, 04 February 2015 - 04:19 PM.