777 replies to this topic

[rolling thunder]

Kill stealing, i don't think like that. If I did my dummy would be well & truly spat out from the times I pummel an enemy only to have someone take them down with a small or medium laser, leaving me causing 600 - 800 points of damage & no kills! It doesn't bother me to help out a friendly pilot. It's not with the intention of kill stealing, it's helping a team mate. The idea being to kill the enemy before they kill you or your team mates. My Mech is set up as a LRM boat with two PPCs. Once i'm out of ammo I go & get stuck in {with mixed results}. I'm still getting the odd damage from people "testing" their weapons at the beginning of a match & it is taking me all my time to remain calm {While the damage is around 1%}

[Tim East]

The only time I've ever had someone else kill a target I was also killing and considered it "kill stealing" was when a Blackjack literally jumped over the Dire Wolf between us I was killing to absorb the laser salvo that would have killed it in his own arm and finished it off himself.

Basically, my meter for kill stealing is if someone on your team takes a killing alpha for themselves and then proceeds to kill the original target of that alpha. Only ever happened to me once.

Other people killing something you're shooting at by being quicker on the draw? Not a big deal, that's just focused fire. It really only bugged me the one time because he took a hit to team resources (armor) for a bonus to his c-bills/XP. I'd have been really mad if we had lost.

[Void Angel]

Many times when people are "testing" their guns it's because they were tabbed out waiting for the match to start - then clicked on the screen in the background instead of the MWO icon on the program bar below the screen. When you click back like that, it enters a mouse-click, which is default-bound to your first weapon group...

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Kahadras, on 09 February 2015 - 04:38 PM, said:

I think the game does encourage a bit of a 'not me' attitude. People are happy to watch other players leading the charge or distract the enemy Dire Wolf but don't want to do it themselves as it could lead to an early death and a missed oppertunity to hoover up some kills in the late game. This 'not me' attitude quickly disappears when the match shifts decisively in favor of one team. Players who have been hiding behind a hill and sniping quickly stampead out to grab those extra kills and assists.

This is essentially the exact opposite of the way I play (and the expectations I have for those that I play with regularly). In general, I encourage and approve of smart use of cover, except when other teammates are brawling and taking damage.

Once the brawl starts, it needs to be a whole-team effort.

When I'm in a brawling assault, I expect the lighter strikers to occasionally use me as cover. However, if they're going to do that, they have to keep up with me. I will be going full-throttle from target to target, hitting each enemy in my path a maximum of two or three times before moving on to the next (until I get to the back of their formation, at which point I turn back into the chaos). I expect that my teammates will capitalize on the weakened armor on the 'mechs I don't kill. I don't give a crap how many kills I get or how much damage I do, as long as the team wins and we have fun. When it works well, it is a glorious decisive win ... when it kinda works, it's still a phenomenal brawl, and great fun ... only occasionally does it fail miserably, and even then, it's still kinda fun.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 10 February 2015 - 07:28 PM.

[purplewasabi]

Gift of the Magi, on 09 February 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

In the last 25 games, my team have only won 4. In each and every loss, the team had grouped up in a location close to their start point and sat there. They only started to move once casualties reduced the team to about 3-4 mechs. In many cases, I rarely found locks on the mini-map and discovered mechs firing on enemies WITHOUT any locks being made, despite the fact that I could lock the mech being FARTHER AWAY.

And in one case, after locking a mech and firing on it, the team mech engaging it turned and fired ON ME, and texted to me "Quit trying to kill-steal, noob".

I think the game does encourage long-range engagements and players don't want to get exposed and risk being taken out, but I also think we are still dealing with Deathmatch Syndrome.

Deathmatch Syndrome is a common affliction amongst video game players, especially younger ones, who prefer FPS games. It starts with the mindset created in deathmatch games, when you are all by yourself against others and ranking or success is graded by
-1.) How many kills or killshots you get.
-2.) If you were the last man alive.
Such games completely discourage any kind of team-play, and even many Team Deathmatches put more emphasis on personal performance than team victory. I remember playing such games and having players brag about getting 30+ kills even after their team lost, while shrugging at the team that won because "don't matter". They also become upset at 'kill-stealing' to the point of turning on their own team in frustration and not communicating if they see opponents, because they want all the kills to themselves.

This game tracks your Kill/Death ratio, your Match/Win ratio and other personal attributes...which of course feeds this disease. Add in that the team needs locks to help figure out where enemies are or to use their weapons properly, and you have a mindset of players completely against what makes a team work. Unfortunately this disease is hard to cure without actually being with that player and talking to them, and it is infectious as hell.

Hey Magi, if u need a tank add me as friend and i will come to your aid. I am looking for like minded guys to group up with. Void is right about players trending towards long range engagement, most players with units/clans would've had this discussion in the war room i'm sure. I prefer to get my hands dirty, close and personal (had a bloody good time when laser hit reg was broken for a while mwahahaha) so shoot me an invite anytime i'm online.

Also would like to add what someone said to me ingame, a fellow Atlas pilot. My team spawned on the otherside of the hill and was approaching the tunnel when our team came to a halt on Crimson, the enemy had their defenses up on and below the platform and was picking us off 1 by 1. The wise man...or women, said "its our job to get our crew knee deep in ****, lets hope they know how to dig us out" and we stormed the lower level. Luckily the others followed through and we rolled the enemy despite being downed a few. He/she didnt make it out and i was heavily damaged.

Regarding K/D ratios, being an advocate of bullrush tactics, i dont really give a fudge about my K/D ratio. Maybe thats why games have been tough, i'm in the lower brackets...

Well checked my K/D ratio and its still in the green so it proves that you dont have to hang back to get a good score(?)

Edit: Regarding kill steals, i once got 6 kills under 400 damage in an atlas. My logic is if i'm at the frontlines doing work, i think i am entitled to them...

Edited by purplewasabi, 11 February 2015 - 05:32 PM.

[Void Angel]

Although we are veering a bit off-topic (I don't mind,) Kageru's use of his Atlas is entirely correct. The proper use of a heavy brawler, when the time comes, is to absorb people's initial alpha strikes and create disruption. An Atlas does this very well; nothing else in the game quite takes a licking and keeps on kicking like it does; even the other 100-tonners have different strengths. So, you maraud through their team dealing big damage and spreading damage as best you can: if you're doing it right, you'll usually make an Atlas-shaped hole in the enemy team that your side can exploit - even if you're dead while they're doing it.

It does bear mentioning that you don't have to go through their whole team in order to get the job done (and that a good charge always relies on timing, even if the time is "as soon as I get there.") Cutting a corner off the enemy team can also be beneficial. Taking Crimson Strait as an example, if you're coming out of the tunnel with the enemy under the mezzanine, you can cut to the right and go around the building, then either go back across sideways or travel around the building to engage, depending on where the enemies are. But when push comes to shove, it needs to be the Assaults who are doing the shoving, even potentially with long-range builds. Too many long-range pilots assume that since they are "snipers," they shouldn't close in on the enemy, and simply sit in place hoping the enemy will give them a target - while the team fights and dies behind the next hill. But that really is another thread.

Edited by Void Angel, 11 February 2015 - 05:57 PM.

[Krivvan]

Void Angel, on 18 January 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

\
if the enemy is shooting at your teammate, as a practical matter they cannot shoot at you at the same time. Thus, if you see a large volume of fire coming at your Friendly Neighborhood Atlas, often the best thing you can do is use that window to return fire at the enemy while they focus on killing your friend.

To this day this is one of the most important aspects behind trading effectively.

[ApolloKaras]

Krivvan, on 11 February 2015 - 06:55 PM, said:

To this day this is one of the most important aspects behind trading effectively.

I think this is one of the more important things in MWO. I'll struggle with this also pending on the battle conditions.

[Nastyogre]

Void Angel, it pains me to continue to praise you, being a Drac and all.

I have the experiences with Atlases as line breakers all the time. If I can get people to follow me, or to flank the enemy when I lumber out, its a win, most of the time. I try and twist as much as I can but I usually take an angle where its hard for the enemy to stay focused on my CT (Standard Engine only on Atlases) Pummel them with the AC 20 and the SRMs you should be carrying. Add in some Laser or PPC fire, don't overheat & keep moving. Game over.

Your job isn't to kill anything. Its to raise hell. Sure if you can find a damaged victim your big gun will do the trick but one or two kills is all you can hope for when 6 enemies turn on you. The fun thing is watching the enemies you know you blasted as you walked out be listed as killed because your team has mugged them after you passed. By the time I'm dead or combat ineffective the enemy should be down 4-6 units to just me. Game over. Even in CW that's a big lead.

[Void Angel]

Oh, put your mind at ease - I'm a merc, so all alliances are temporary. =)

As for the tactics you describe, yes! That's exactly what you do, though I do try to kill as many people as possible, and with an Ac/20 and three ASRM6s, you can kill Mediums and the like pretty fast. But your goal, your reason for being there, is to make an Atlas-shaped hole in the enemy team.

[Kahadras]

I have to agree that the assault mechs are probably the single most important element of the team in a match. As a medium pilot I need those assaults to be wading in, drawing fire and dealing out damage in a coordinated fashion. Everybody has a job to do in a match (lights need to scout, harrass and spot for instance) but if the assaults don't do their job (or aren't there to be able to do their job) then it's pretty much gg.

A great example was a game from a couple of days ago on Crimson Strait. The other team ran off and left their assaults behind. Our team kept together, caught up with the enemy assaults and wiped them out. The game was something like 3-6 at that point but we ended up winning 12-7 and a lot of it, IMHO, was down to the fact that they lost the most important element of their team. OK we had lost more mechs at that point where the last enemy King Crab went down but we still had the nuculus of an effective team which was our 3 assaults backed up by some lighter mechs.

[Tim East]

Timidity is totally a tactic. A bad one. I was just in a match on Canyon Network (one of my favorite maps I might add) and my team took the center pretty early. I wound up running back along our left flank because an Atlas popped up on my screen, and those are my Locusts' second or third-favorite food. I zapped him in the back a couple of times, and realized that the entire enemy team was bearing down on me, so I ran past him and into our team's base area. Went ahead and made a quick post once I was out of sight, something along the lines of "Lots, c6-b4" or something, and went to try and buy my team time to make it back to the base with my life.

This is where it got weird. I started playing peekaboo with a Stalker that was leading their pack, and instead of pushing forward and forcing me into a brawl where I died in flaming glory, the entire enemy team BACKED OFF. From one Locust. So I pushed forward peekaboo-style, and before I knew it, I had held the entire enemy team, by myself, in a Locust for something like 2 and a half minutes, and they finally decided to charge me. So I dropped my airstrike and they backed off again. Then, a Dire Whale AC2 boat took the lead and got chewed to pieced by my team which had about 3/4ths arrived by that time. My team pushed forward into them from both our base and the hill on their left flank, and they died in a matter of seconds after that.

I can honestly say that this is the first time in my career as a Locust pilot that I've had someone actually flee from me when they had support within 15 meters. Seemed like a superb example of timidity costing a match though. Heh...hiding from the Locust...

[Void Angel]

I'd say rather that timidity is an attitude which leads to bad tactics, but I do see exactly what you're saying. People are so adverse to accepting damage - largely because the game trains them to fear being hit - that they'll engage in amazingly silly practices.

How do you engage the reverse gear of an Assault Mech?

Shoot it with a Medium Laser.

=D

[Gift of the Magi]

Tim East, on 13 February 2015 - 07:09 PM, said:

Timidity is totally a tactic. A bad one. I was just in a match on Canyon Network (one of my favorite maps I might add) and my team took the center pretty early. I wound up running back along our left flank because an Atlas popped up on my screen, and those are my Locusts' second or third-favorite food. I zapped him in the back a couple of times, and realized that the entire enemy team was bearing down on me, so I ran past him and into our team's base area. Went ahead and made a quick post once I was out of sight, something along the lines of "Lots, c6-b4" or something, and went to try and buy my team time to make it back to the base with my life.

This is where it got weird. I started playing peekaboo with a Stalker that was leading their pack, and instead of pushing forward and forcing me into a brawl where I died in flaming glory, the entire enemy team BACKED OFF. From one Locust. So I pushed forward peekaboo-style, and before I knew it, I had held the entire enemy team, by myself, in a Locust for something like 2 and a half minutes, and they finally decided to charge me. So I dropped my airstrike and they backed off again. Then, a Dire Whale AC2 boat took the lead and got chewed to pieced by my team which had about 3/4ths arrived by that time. My team pushed forward into them from both our base and the hill on their left flank, and they died in a matter of seconds after that.

I can honestly say that this is the first time in my career as a Locust pilot that I've had someone actually flee from me when they had support within 15 meters. Seemed like a superb example of timidity costing a match though. Heh...hiding from the Locust...

Damnit man, I think that was one of my teams. I was trying to find a firing position while I saw all the heavies and assaults move toward the crater...and then they ran away from a Locust. A LOCUST. I got chewed apart when my lance tried to take a position and the INSTANT two mechs opened fire, my FIVE teammates ran back to cover leaving me in the open all by myself.

Now hearing all this talk about how an Atlas can be used to open up an enemy line and push....I do have this Atlas I got for ordering the Wraith Edition of Resistance. I normally prefer speed and flexibility, but if there is a need for a giant chunk of metal meat to get things moving, I am willing to re-train myself.

Edited by Gift of the Magi, 14 February 2015 - 03:49 PM.

[Void Angel]

You'll need three variants to make the Atlas work, like most assault chassis. But it's quite rewarding if your team lets you play it well. =D

Just be prepared to have 0-kill, 300 damage matches where you drove the win - and none of your teammates will believe you did it.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Void Angel, on 14 February 2015 - 04:34 PM, said:

Just be prepared to have 0-kill, 300 damage matches where you drove the win - and none of your teammates will believe you did it.

One of my most glorious matches, group of about 6x 228th, plus others vs. a group of CSJ (now JGx) with a couple of Lords mixed in on Forest Colony ... we were rolling heavy ... 2x AS-7-D-DC, DWF, and a few TBRs (because we'd been running into these guys pretty much all night).

They started at the uphill spawn and immediately set up a firing line in the water behind the island.

We knew we couldn't trade with them, and had to brawl, just needed a sacrificial hunk of armor to "open the door".

We moved into the water, with our faster mechs near the stern of the ship, and our assaults stacked at the hole in the ship, and I waded forward in my Atlas, first one shoulder forward, then the other, watching a brilliant fan of laser vomit melt away my arms, my side torsos, and ultimately my CT ... I did something like 100 damage, and died in the first 15 seconds of the engagement, but when my team closed the distance, the enemies were all two alphas closer to over heating. It took a few more minutes, but we walked away victorious.

We won primarily because we had a team that trusted each other, but also because I used almost every bit of my 592 points of armor ... while it is fun to wade through a team punching holes in things, barely living and getting half a dozen kills, it is sometimes just as satisfying to be the guy that enabled others to do so.

[Tim East]

Gift of the Magi, on 14 February 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

Now hearing all this talk about how an Atlas can be used to open up an enemy line and push....I do have this Atlas I got for ordering the Wraith Edition of Resistance. I normally prefer speed and flexibility, but if there is a need for a giant chunk of metal meat to get things moving, I am willing to re-train myself.

I've had surprisingly good fortune using a SRM Stormcrow as a sort of shock-trooper mech. It's beefy enough to frequently give two alphas before falling to the enemy team, fast enough to leap around a corner in a real hurry, and punchy enough to wreck any one guy. Just know that if you're planning to be the sacrifice, you're relying on your team to pick up the pieces, which they will not do about 2/3rds of the time in my experience. It probably works better when you have a group with voip.

[Kahadras]

Quote

Just be prepared to have 0-kill, 300 damage matches where you drove the win - and none of your teammates will believe you did it.

I always check post match scores to see how our assaults did. TBH though if we win then all is forgiven in terms of what people have done (or haven't done) during the game. The annoyance comes when your team loses and people haven't done their jobs.

[Wintersdark]

Scores are very, very misleading. They're a very poor indicator of performance and who did "their jobs" well or not.

There's not really better indicators, of course - it's all we've got at the end of the match - but even so, that scoreboard is a terrible indicator of performance.

[Gift of the Magi]

Wintersdark, on 15 February 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

Scores are very, very misleading. They're a very poor indicator of performance and who did "their jobs" well or not.

There's not really better indicators, of course - it's all we've got at the end of the match - but even so, that scoreboard is a terrible indicator of performance.

Agreed. If you are using an assault as a meat shield (odd thing to type when talking about a giant metal box), then it is taking the role of the 'tank' in MMOs.

The traditional tank does not worry about how much damage it does, but how much damage and attention it absorbs. I like the Atlas because it has enough armor to take a beating, enough firepower to force you to respect it and it is THE scariest looking mech in the game (as opposed to the Dire Wolf, which may have more firepower and armor but looking like a mini-van with legs). I see an Atlas and I immediately shoot it in the face and find cover.

I do not grade our assaults for their kills. I grade them by how often do I see them on the front line and are they moving forward or holding the line...or are they moving backward IN PACKS. I do not hold it against a lone assault retreating because no one came to help....in fact if I see that I try to run over and help if I can. But the whole lance? Sorry but no. I have 3 Stalkers, which are mostly support-type Assaults and I STILL try to keep them moving forward at all times. Even if I die with no kills, at least the guys behind me have time to wreak the enemy.

Plus my Stalkers are scary ;-)