777 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

Absolutely correct - though it's more on the topic of teamwork (shameless plug!)

[Markus Keller]

Void Angel, I blame you for an unproductive morning. I just read all 32 pages of this thread. Your handling (dismantling) of the trolls and their "arguments" is, frankly, inspiring. As is your restraint. And thus, I was too entranced by the unfolding multi-year drama to get anything done in real life. So you owe me reparations or something.

Actually just keep fighting the Good Fight against ignorance and poor/absent logic.

Cheers.

[Void Angel]

Er, sorry? And you're welcome!

[Not A Real RAbbi]

LOL @ "Learn to Scout". Easiest way to get Captain Tryhard's tampon string twisted, right there. I know. Recon is almost all I've been doing for the last month.

Amend that to read: "Learn to Let Captqin Tryhard See That You Are Doing What He Expects Of You", or it's just an invitation to get whined at. A LOT. Usually by the folks that weren't paying any attention to your reports, and paid for it with their meta-tastic heavies.

[JeGGoR]

Thanks for the guide, I wrote a French translation available here:
http://mwomercs.com/...s-une-tactique/

[Void Angel]

Sweet! Thanks a ton!

[Chados]

Here's the funny thing. I've actually been in matches where I was on the tip of the spear and a push was starting to fail. There I am, off to the side in cover on Viridian Bog...and I think to myself "Timidity is not a Tactic!" Thereby marching out of cover and into the fight.

LOLOLOL!

Edited by Chados, 29 November 2015 - 07:01 AM.

[GLaDOSauR]

Sadly, this thread is still relevant after 3 years. And with a new wave of new players from steam, we can expect to see a lot of timidity. I agree with everything the OP has to say on this topic and I commend him in his valiant defense of his viewpoint. And now for some input from me: I think one of the main reasons that people hide upon taking fire(in a n00bs case. There is no reason for a seasoned player to do this) is that they're coming from games where you die easier than in MWO. In a game like Battlefield, you can be dead in a second if you come under fire. In MWO, you are much more tanky and can usually take several seconds worth of non-crippling damage. More if you're spreading damage. I actually have a hard time switching between games like BF and MWO. The play-styles are so radically different that it usually takes a few matches to get back in stride.

Also, I think that hiding behind cover can be perfectly acceptable in certain cases although these don't really count as the timidity the OP was talking about:

1) incoming lrms. If you're taking fire from a lrm boat it's almost always a good idea to take cover until the rain has stopped.

2)Ambush. If your scouts(who are hopefully doing their jobs ) have spotted an enemy force in-coming, then hiding and waiting for them to get closer before exposing yourself to their fire can be a good idea. especially in maps like river city. If enemies are coming through the water and you're in a short range build, it's a good idea to wait in the buildings till they get closer instead of revealing yourself to fire.

3) Near the beginning of a match, revealing yourself to enemy forces can cause a lot of problems. Keeping your head down and staying out of sight is very important when getting into position for a push or counter-push.

Good job Mr Void Angel. I commend you in your efforts.

Edited by GLaDOSauR, 29 November 2015 - 04:44 PM.

[Void Angel]

Well, thanks! I think there might be something to your thoughts on damage aversion for some players - unfortunately, a lot of players do this, even those who have been around to know better. I think it has to do with the psychological effects of the long-range metas we've been seeing since, well, ever. Lots of long-range guns means lots of long-range fire if you get caught, resulting in severe damage - so because players are learning from playing the game, they start to avoid leaving cover in front of all those long-range guns. There's more to it than that, involving operant conditioning and the like, but in a general sense, I think that's what's happening.

[Deiwos]

I've been primarily playing two mechs since I've come back recently (after not having played since early-ish in the beta): Jenner, and Centurion. Both of these have been built as short-range skirmishers basically; the Jenner a quick hunter-killer and Atlas butt-stabber, and the Centurion a force of death against anything silly enough to get within my SRM range (until my ammo runs out). In both cases I either died gloriously or ended with under half my health left, because if I had hung back and poked at the enemy mechs or timidly hid away I would have been more useless than dead. I know it's scary to have your armor/crit slots turn yellow and then red, but sometimes you need to just charge in and kill them before they kill you. Of course, you need to be smart about what you do and not just throw yourself against the entire team, but smart does not equal timid.

The biggest things that have lost matches I've played in hasn't been superior enemy tactics/firepower or anything like that, but rather my team huddling up in a corner while the enemy surrounds us. A prime example was on the jungle map earlier, almost the -entire team- ran up to a divot in the side of the middle plateau/pillar thing, and just milled around there, getting in each others' ways and obscuring lines of sight while the enemy picked us off from all sides easily. (Also a lot of my personal deaths have come from engaging the enemy amidst my teammates, only for them to run off and hide.)

That's another thing. Try to watch where your squadmates are, because if you don't there's a good chance you'll be getting in their way, and vice versa.

Edited by Deiwos, 11 December 2015 - 01:38 AM.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Just a sidebar on this whole bravery-before-the-enemy thing:

There's no hit to PSR (that we know of) for your mech being destroyed, all else being equal. Sometimes, you might be willing to risk that in order to bring some advantage to your team.

FOR INSTANCE, earlier tonight on Viridian Bog, I made the decision in my ACH-PRIME to go ahead and wreak havoc in the enemy's midst. ECM on DISRUPT, cSPLs blazin', I jumped right down in front of a KGC, ran on between a AWS and some other heavy, and made a huge nuisance of myself to the enemy force's main body. We were tied up at 4 kills per team, IIRC, either before or after I died there. That disruption, though, was timed. The team was split, the enemy was not, and they were about to ram into the back side of 1/2 of my team, and not the heavier half either. That havoc-wreakiing did two things for my teammates. 1.) It allowed them time to regroup and reposition, that they likely would not otherwise have had. 2.) It gave them a better idea of the size, composition, and whereabouts of the enemy force. It may have cost us a fast light mech and a small ding on my pride, and maybe it wasn't the turning point in the battle at all, but it helped. What was an even fight was, near as I could see, about to get lopsided. It didn't, and my teammates went on to win.

Sometimes, you gotta be willing to take the D. (TWSS)

[Void Angel]

A good light can turn the tide of a match in a number of ways, as can a good Assault. My Atlas D-DC used to have one of the lowest kills per death of any of my favored' mechs - and one of the highest win/loss ratios. For a while my Spider 5D had similar stats.

With the Atlas, those stats are accounted for by my willingness to take it in the teeth for the team - over and over and over. A lot of times. No, more than that. This many times:


The Spider, though was different - I would do my sneaky scout thing and just take the time to tell my team (with my keyboard; this was before VoIP) what the enemy was doing. Just having that information helped keep them all focused on the same threats and enabled them to be more confident in taking action - which had a hugely beneficial effect on the game.

Edited by Void Angel, 02 January 2016 - 06:11 PM.

[Vlad Striker]

they cannot shoot at you at the same time
you exactly read of my thoughts. The first post is actual at present days!

Assaults is the bones, heavies is the muscles, medium is the skin and lights is the immune system.

[Irishtoker]

Found all of this very useful. Thanks all.

[Darena Bryant]

Well, here's a question.

I'm pretty new to the game. I like long range engagements too. I use LRMs, and have tried out a mech armed with PPCs and found it to my liking. I tend to let the other mechs precede me while either firing missiles at targets that get revealed, or angling for shots with my weapons from as far back as possible.

Does this mark me as "timid"?

I often find myself getting attacked from the rear by one of the enemy mechs who seem to casually stroll past the front lines right up to where I'm firing on their teammates. Actually, strike that. ALWAYS getting attacked like that. It's as if I'm the only one anyone sees sometimes.

When I try to push forward into closer ranges, again the same thing happens. One of the enemy mechs goes, "Hey look! That mech looks like it has missiles! LET'S GET IT!!!" ...and next thing I know I have to try to run in reverse with 3 to 5 mechs all shooting at me at once. I even had a match where one of my team stood not 10 meters from where I was taking a pounding and just sorta... watched. After I was down, he killed the offending mech. He later tried to tell me how I should run towards the rest of the team when I found myself getting ganked like that.

I pilot a Catapult C4. Early into the game, I removed the LRM20s and added one LRM15, two SRM6s, and two medium lasers for variety, hoping to be able to back off some of the crazed "missile boat killers" who forget everything else to destroy me as soon as they see me. And they DO act crazed, running right into my missiles and lasers face first, no matter the size. It doesn't help that either they all have very carefully calibrated mice connected to their computers, or my Catapult is just really fragile; I take somewhere between 1 (yes one; to the torso) to 5 hits before my mech is in a heap on the ground.

So... is it bad that I want to not be in too close, yet still contribute? Is my issue that I'm not staying in the middle of the pack, and instead using the range I'm good with to do damage? I don't just take up one position and stay there (unless the shootin's good, and I'm doing damage). I also seem to be piloting a mech made out of compressed toilet paper for all the resistance to damage I have. Bright, neon orange toilet paper, for all the attention I get once ANYONE on the other team sees me.

As much as I understand I'm actually supposed to take damage as part of my being on the team and in a firefight, I literally don't seem to be ABLE to. I keep on the fringes because usually once I'm in the thick of things, the entire enemy team focus fires me... and I don't last long enough to even try to get cover or run for the rest of the team. Even if only one enemy finds me, I get wrecked in short order, and my attacks suddenly don't seem to have any effect on them.

It would be nice if everything didn't cost millions of C-bills, or quite so many hundreds of EXP points, or real money. I feel like there's an enormous, stressful slog ahead of me before I can feel like I've improved any, even while trying to focus on improving and learning this one mech. I have two more versions I need to work through after this one before I can learn the elite skills and such, after all.

But does not wanting to die really mark me as "timid"? Especially since that's almost exactly what happens when I stick my head out. In a very recent match, I got headshotted within 1 minute of the mission starting. I wasn't in the vanguard either. I was then forced to watch as the match continued without me for quite a while. I like this game, and Mechwarrior in general and the concepts and storyline... but that made me want to say a very many bad words while throwing my computer across the room.

I'm guessing I need to train more skills and upgrade my armor, but since I can only get into PuGs with people who run off and either leave me by myself no matter how I chase, or die shortly after going out of immediate line of sight, leaving me to get swarmed shortly thereafter, resulting in horrible "rewards" at the end of each battle... it's pretty discouraging.

[Wintersdark]

Darena Bryant, on 09 January 2016 - 09:14 PM, said:

Well, here's a question.

I'm pretty new to the game. I like long range engagements too. I use LRMs, and have tried out a mech armed with PPCs and found it to my liking. I tend to let the other mechs precede me while either firing missiles at targets that get revealed, or angling for shots with my weapons from as far back as possible.

Does this mark me as "timid"?

I often find myself getting attacked from the rear by one of the enemy mechs who seem to casually stroll past the front lines right up to where I'm firing on their teammates. Actually, strike that. ALWAYS getting attacked like that. It's as if I'm the only one anyone sees sometimes.

This is because LRM mechs are extremely vulnerable in close combat, particularly if they lack backup weapons. Many players, then, view them (rightly so) as easy, safe kills, and they're quite eager to take that cookie.

Quote

When I try to push forward into closer ranges, again the same thing happens. One of the enemy mechs goes, "Hey look! That mech looks like it has missiles! LET'S GET IT!!!" ...and next thing I know I have to try to run in reverse with 3 to 5 mechs all shooting at me at once. I even had a match where one of my team stood not 10 meters from where I was taking a pounding and just sorta... watched. After I was down, he killed the offending mech. He later tried to tell me how I should run towards the rest of the team when I found myself getting ganked like that.

Well, you need to keep in mind - you're playing in new player land, at very likely tier 5. At that point, most of your fellow players are also pretty new, so you need to expect a lot of... poor choices, all around. Players who don't have any idea of who to play.

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I pilot a Catapult C4. Early into the game, I removed the LRM20s and added one LRM15, two SRM6s, and two medium lasers for variety, hoping to be able to back off some of the crazed "missile boat killers" who forget everything else to destroy me as soon as they see me. And they DO act crazed, running right into my missiles and lasers face first, no matter the size. It doesn't help that either they all have very carefully calibrated mice connected to their computers, or my Catapult is just really fragile; I take somewhere between 1 (yes one; to the torso) to 5 hits before my mech is in a heap on the ground.

You can take a lot more than one hit; this is just math. The Catapult has a decent amount of armor (you DID maximize the armor, and move a lot forward facing, right?) and has structural bonuses too. Are you running an XL engine, or a standard engine?

When taking fire, twist to the side, spread the damage as much as you can. You want to take some to your side torsos, some to your arms as well if you can. This vastly increases the amount of damage they need to do to cripple or kill you. Defensive piloting is a very important skill to learn.

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So... is it bad that I want to not be in too close, yet still contribute? Is my issue that I'm not staying in the middle of the pack, and instead using the range I'm good with to do damage? I don't just take up one position and stay there (unless the shootin's good, and I'm doing damage). I also seem to be piloting a mech made out of compressed toilet paper for all the resistance to damage I have. Bright, neon orange toilet paper, for all the attention I get once ANYONE on the other team sees me.

You definitely want to keep on the move, and limit your exposure. Don't let multiple enemy mechs see you at once, ideally you want to be "slicing the pie":

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As much as I understand I'm actually supposed to take damage as part of my being on the team and in a firefight, I literally don't seem to be ABLE to. I keep on the fringes because usually once I'm in the thick of things, the entire enemy team focus fires me... and I don't last long enough to even try to get cover or run for the rest of the team. Even if only one enemy finds me, I get wrecked in short order, and my attacks suddenly don't seem to have any effect on them.

Your weapons and theirs have the same effect.

Quote

It would be nice if everything didn't cost millions of C-bills, or quite so many hundreds of EXP points, or real money. I feel like there's an enormous, stressful slog ahead of me before I can feel like I've improved any, even while trying to focus on improving and learning this one mech. I have two more versions I need to work through after this one before I can learn the elite skills and such, after all.

I'd recommend, as above, focusing on:

1) Limiting your exposure to one enemy at a time; slicing the pie when possible.
2) Working on defensive piloting. Be twisting while taking fire, and only facing directly at opponents when you yourself are firing. Never stare at enemies, as you make it easy to core out your CT. Try to spread damage onto your least damaged areas.
3) Stay with your team. If you're being attacked, don't back away from your team, try to bring your attackers into allies' lines of sight.
4) Understand that what others do in your match may or may not be a good idea: Most of them are newer players too.

5) If you want to learn faster, there are lots of existing units that take new players and hold training sessions. Or, a simpler method, is joining one of the existing open faction teamspeak channels, and talking to players there. There's almost always groups running who'd be glad to help teach a new player.

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But does not wanting to die really mark me as "timid"? Especially since that's almost exactly what happens when I stick my head out. In a very recent match, I got headshotted within 1 minute of the mission starting. I wasn't in the vanguard either. I was then forced to watch as the match continued without me for quite a while. I like this game, and Mechwarrior in general and the concepts and storyline... but that made me want to say a very many bad words while throwing my computer across the room.

Well, you can at least rest assured that that's a very uncommon occurrence - so long as you weren't standing still. Never, ever stand still, even if you've got a good firing line, be moving all the time even if it's just back and forth. Don't let people line up good shots

Quote

I'm guessing I need to train more skills and upgrade my armor, but since I can only get into PuGs with people who run off and either leave me by myself no matter how I chase, or die shortly after going out of immediate line of sight, leaving me to get swarmed shortly thereafter, resulting in horrible "rewards" at the end of each battle... it's pretty discouraging.

As above, the community TS channels are probably your best bet to get competent folks to group up with for a decent chance. Though keep in mind, in the group queue you'll tend to be matched with - and against - much better opponents. This is a two-edged affair: On one hand, they'll be more accurate, and better at defensive piloting themselves. On the other, you can learn a lot more from what they do, and don't do.

[Darena Bryant]

This is in reply to Wintersdark. First off, thanks for all the support here, and for answering my many questions.

I <do> know I'm in new player land; I'm one of them after all. ^^ But it's still a bit annoying to have everyone scrambling around like they're playing Call of Duty or something.

I started out being one of those "stationary until dead" types, but I have been moving around more constantly and watching my flanks. I'm hoping to pick up more "move and shoot" skill as I play. I've noticed that my mech is pretty damned slow to start OR stop when moving though. any advice on that? I'm currently using a 260 Standard engine in my Catapult. I'd considered going XL, but the fact that people keep destroying my side units has me leery of trying that. It would just increase the chances of being put out of commission from my engine being destroyed.

I've tried playing with armor redistribution, but can't seem to get the hang of it. I'm basically playing the stock setup, which isn't quite maxed out for frontal, though nearly so. I also keep hearing about these "meta" builds. Do you know where I can find a listing of these for Catapults to at least look at them and compare to my own setup?

I tend to "slice the pie" a lot, and also to hit and run often, scoring some hits and then finding another spot of cover someplace else to shoot from. the trouble is what I described up there... when people decide they want me dead, they come in crowds. xD I usually get 3 to 5 at once, from multiple angles sometimes, though often in a swarm from one direction. And the sheer number of hits I take to the front of my mech, blocking my view and shaking everything, precludes me fighting back. Turning and running tends to be even worse, since... you know... no real armor back there.

I <do> try to keep with my team, but as new players who read "consider your mech to be a tank with legs", they tend to charge in and explode pretty fast. xD I watch the map to be sure there's at least a few mechs close by who can help, and use the chat channel to call for it when I get in trouble... though that doesn't really seem to matter.

The problem with "defensive piloting" is my using missiles. I only have two medium lasers on my mech; swinging my torso from side to side ruins my target lock, which defeats the Artemis I have on my SRMs. ...should I just have normal SRMs? <CAN> I have normal SRMs, while keeping my LRMs Artemis? Or is this a case of needing to learn direct, non targeted missile fire? I admit to mostly just aiming and shooting my SRMs anyway, but doesn't the target lock help?

Again, thanks for the information and advice, it's been very helpful.

[Sylow]

The Catapult C4 is a good LRM carrier, but using LRMs effectively requires a lot of tactical understanding.

First take a look at the mech. I would for example suggest this LRM Catapult. Some reasoning behind this:

• The Catapult has a huge center torso, if you do at least some torso twisting, you should rarely loose a side torso. I run all my Catapults with XL engines, there's not many mechs around which protect XL engines as well as the Catapult.
  
• The 300XL engine gives it some more speed, which is essential for this mechs playstyle. (More on that later. )
  
• The 300XL engine is useful in many mechs around, there are not many XL engines which will see as much use as this one, when you start collecting mechs.
  
• Jumpjets give you additional agility and allow you to reach good firing positions quickly. (So you also don't regret too much if you also quickly leave them again to take cover. )
  
• 900 missiles for two LRM 15 launchers should be enough to last you through a fight, although not much "waste" is calculated in. You might want to consider to drop something for some extra ammo.
  
• The beagle probe gives you more detection range and disables hostile ECM. Some people rather take more ammo or heatsinks instead, but i find it well worth the investment.
  
• Two SMR4 on paper seem inferior to two SRM6 racks, but due to their tighter spread and faster reload time, they perform well and save you weight. 1.5 tons of ammo is a little tight again, but keep in mind that they are considered your backup weapons only.
  
• For weightsaving reasons and to save money i have not selected artemis on this machine. The SRM4 is accurate enough without it. The spread of the LRM15s is only reduced by artemis if you have visual on the enemy, not if you use it for indirect fire. At the same time it would give you lower lockon times, so it still is worth considering.
  
• Just like the beagle probe, the AMS can be discussed. Higher tier players generally disregard this equipment, as avoiding missiles can be done in different ways. All the same, AMS does give protection against LRMs and in lower tiers you see plenty of them. Due to the way they work, it might not strike the eye on how good they are, but the AMS tends to cut 3 missiles out of each volley hitting you and tends to destroy even more missiles if a volley aimed at a teammate behind you flies over you. Half a ton of ammo again seems tight and will certainly run out against a LRM-heavy enemy, but i found that most of the time this much suffices.

Now on how to use this mech:

• First of all note that while LRMs have a range of 1k, they best are used at ranges of up to 500 meters. The further they have to reach out, the longer they have to fly, the more time the enemy has to take cover and the more AMS can interfere.
  
• Due to this, you want to be around 300 meters behind your team. Being much closer you risk to have enemies below minimum range in no time, being much more behind you run a number of risks.
  
• The highest risk is to be caught by a fast enemy mech who likes to take the LRM-boat-snack. Bear in mind, you have backup weapons, but they are not enough to fend off a fresh enemy.
  
• The most important thing you have to learn with this mech is terrain and how LRMs fly. This is why most LRM assaults have me between laughing and facepalming. While they have huge launchers and plenty of ammo, most of that ammo goes to waste as they can't be in the proper position on time, launch from bad positoins and mostly rain their missiles on the cover the enemy hides behind.
  
• So really, this is the same point, but it's important enough to be two points. Learn the terrain and how the missiles fly, use the speed of the big engine and jumpjets to get there on time and launch your missiles.
  
• If your position is potentially exposed to flanking, don't stay there. Again use speed and jumpjets to get back to where the rest of your team protects you.
  
• While your team is in good shape and you have plenty of LRM ammo, stay in the support role as much as possible. You have a huge center torso and only 10 double heat sinks, you are not set up for brawling.
  
• This changes once both sides are shot up and your LRM ammo runs low. If you didn't terribly mess up, later in the game your armour is in better shape than of anybody else. Your two medium lasers and SRM4 racks have some terrible punch against people with damaged or broken armour. Thus later in the game, when mechs of both sides are shot up, feel free to not only also go melee range, but even go in front of your worn down brawlers, do some kililng and absorb damage for them, so they can profit from the protection and keep fighting.

I hope this helps a little.

Edited by Sylow, 10 January 2016 - 02:26 PM.

[loopala]

Darena Bryant the cplt c4 is very good mech but like all the mechs it has a type of play that it excels at. i found the support lrmishing to be were i was comfortable at. when you can get the 300xl for it. the 300xl is the single most used xl engine in the game (IMHO) so it is a wise investment. the first rule of survival in MWO, and almost all mechwarrior games, is keep moving, never straight at an enemy always at angles. 2nd rule is never never get more the 300m from your team mates. there are exceptions like some ballsy lights and heavy flankers and such. you are just much more effective as a team then solo.

here is the bulid i finally settled on with the c4.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bed14ae6145fc27

i still pull it out now and again. the ssrms are kind of meh theses days but there is nothing like the satisfaction of jumping over a light while holding lock and hitting him. srm6s with the long cool down and spread are no were as effective as srm4s.

lrmishing hmmm it is the concept of fighting an lrm mech up close in the 200m range area. a good place to be as all your weapons are in range.

7 min of a very lrmishing game with a great pug lance. none of us played together before this. and yes it was a while ago.
couple of things to watch for. the lights held their locks. i ignored close mechs once the lights engaged and kept on the bigger targets. always keep your head on the big picture. don't chase squirrels. watch your range, know your range.



this next one is also and older one but i get to a good over watch position and rain down as much damage as i can. when it became time to go i bugged out. also as i still had good armor left i was able to brawl a bit and take a few with me. it was all about position.



a couple of more things. watch your out going flights. if you are not hitting even with a strong lock, it is time to change targets. don't waste ammo. there have been cplts that are just walking launchers and ammo but trust me max armor is much more important then ammo.

on a side note here is Koniving's ROFLput LRM 90 from way way back

[Barkem Squirrel]

O God the ROFLput has entered the mix.

Darena Bryant
one change is chassis. I like the catapults, but find them just a bit lacking in movement and hit boxes. Now the these mediums make great missile boats wolverines, griffins, shadow hawks, Trebs and kintaros. I would add the Hunchback 4J and 4SP. They give you some speed, and quite a few have jumpjets. They also let you experiment with other types of builds. The kintaros, griffins and trebs make great missile boats as a chassis.

Now on being too timid, you are getting closer to the front, since the light pilots have figured out the big fat defenseless LRM boats are easy targets. (two shots to the back and dead) The Mediums give you some play to get close, but have the ability to run right pass that team mate that is standing there. One word of warning, you many need XL engines from 245, 255, 265, 280 and maybe a 300. That is over 20 million c-bills in engines. Remember that one mech in these chassis's has an XL. That is the cheapest way to get an XL. Then there are all the LRM5's, LRM 10's and LRM 15 launchers to by. Now The PPC is nice, but I try to run TAG to deal with ECM and BAP. One other thing, chain fire is fun, but also necessary when using 3 or more launcher. Using LRM 15 in 6 or 10 tube hard points is also a tactic to have a longer duration of LRMs hitting someone when you fire, and allowing for an increased chance of a hit and missile spread on the CT. The A1 catapult with 6 LRM 5's is a good introduction to this. One thing is I prefer to fire LRMs at less than 300 m, but 400 is still good. It is the 800 m targets that I really do not like to fire at.