783 replies to this topic

[Evil Goof]

Void Angel, on 18 January 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

Edit: Now with 100% More French!

This is for all the times you've looked at your minimap and seen the entire team huddled together like a flock of frightened sheep while the enemy team advances as a unit and swarms you under. This is for every time you've died after heavy combat and popped in to spectate an undamaged brawler plinking away with his one long-range weapon. This is for all the times you've seen an isolated Victor running along your flank, and couldn't get anyone big enough to stop him to leave cover and try. This is for all of us, Mechwarriors - Timidity is not a tactic.

Now, I enjoy MWO - enough to write guides for it, in fact. But if I had to identify the number one problem I run into in the game, it wouldn't be a broken weapon system, an overpowered or underpowered 'Mech, or even matchmaker issues and hit registration. No, the biggest issue I see with MWO is more serious - the game trains cowardice.

The process by which it does this is simple, psychologically speaking. People learn by interpreting the feedback provided by their actions. If they get punished for doing something a certain way, they will tend to try other ways to do things, and deferred punishments and rewards are far less effective at modifying behaviors. The problem in MWO is that the rewards for certain good practices (such as taking damage in order to get close or set up a cross fire) are deferred, but the punishment - the visceral negative feedback of damage alarms, missile warnings, and incoming weapons fire - is immediate, particularly if you make an error. This leads us to the major problem affecting PuG gameplay:

Vicious Cycle. The combination of deferred rewards and immediate punishments, combined with the lack of communication typical to PuGs and the dominance of long-range weaponry, sets up a vicious cycle - what is called in biology a positive feedback loop. Players receive immediate punishment from exposing themselves to damage, even for good cause, and for making errors. The rewards for many actions, on the other hand, are not immediately given, and can be precluded entirely by the actions of your team - if they fail to support you, you can do the right thing for nothing. This encourages players to play more cautiously, letting other players take the risks; thus causing other players to learn that PuGs can't be trusted to watch their backs; which encourages them to play more cautiously, and so on; the process feeds on itself in a vicious cycle - a positive feedback loop.

Timidity as a Tactic: Thus we have the problems which plague so much of the PuG environment. Players will run to the rim of the caldera in Caustic Valley, then stop and refuse to move or expose themselves if anyone is shooting at them; they'll rush to the entrance to the "PuG Zapper" in Terra Therma, then cluster and back up if they take any fire; they'll camp whatever cover is available where they first take incoming, and refuse to move even when desperate warnings and cries for help are issued over coms - I know, I've been the poor sucker getting Julius Caesared on the flank. This is a major component of the current PuG metagame; players only feel like they should be shooting when effective return fire isn't possible for the enemy. When faced with enemy action, people's first response is no longer an immediate recourse to lethal weaponry - it's to hide and preserve their armor. They're not doing it because they're stupid, nasty, dirty little Puggles; they're doing it because the game trains them to be that way. Most PuG matches devolve into a waiting game where everyone scatters out to find their favorite hiding rock and start getting liquored up for the end of the match, when one side gets an advantage and finally starts to close.

Hope for the Battlefield: This doesn't mean that we're all doomed to camp-and-hide tactics unless you're playing in the group queue. Humans are the only species on the planet which relies on learned behaviors as its primary survival strategy - we can override the conditioning of our environment by making choices as rational agents. To this end, I have these suggestions:

• Support Your Teammates. Always support the team, even when they're being stupid. Brawlers sometimes get bored, and snipers are often really, really scared of enemy fire. But if the four brawler/scouts on your team run in alone, it's bad - just like when the snipers refuse to leave their favorite spots in order to help repulse or commit to a push. Either of these options is bad, but leaving half the team unsupported is critical - and you can't control the rest of the team - just yourself. No matter how stupid you know they're being, support your teammates no matter what. Even a bad plan, executed now and with violence of action, is preferable to letting your teammates die in a pyre of foolishness and shame without at least getting something out of it. Give advice if there's time, but get to where you can participate in the action - you'll mitigate the damage if they're being stupid, and avoid sabotaging your team if they're not.
  
• Keep Moving. You may be a long-range mech - in fact, it's likely these days - but staying put too long allows you to be outmaneuvered (see Appendix A) and leaves you vulnerable. Additionally, if you have any brawlers on your team, they can help you better if you move with them - and not moving often makes them unable to help you, because of enemy supporting fire.
  
• Damage Is Like Water. You can drown in the river, but getting a little wet won't kill you. The game inadvertently conditions you to react to any damage as if it is an immediately lethal threat - remember that in reality, durability is just a resource, no different from your heat and ammo. It's important to use that resource wisely, but - particularly for Heavies and Assaults - it's there to be used. In fact, sometimes the best durability you can make use of is someone else's: if the enemy is shooting at your teammate, as a practical matter they cannot shoot at you at the same time. Thus, if you see a large volume of fire coming at your Friendly Neighborhood Atlas, often the best thing you can do is use that window to return fire at the enemy while they focus on killing your friend.
  
• Share Armor. This is related to the previous two points, but is vital enough that it warrants its own bullet point. If your team is fighting the enemy team (even in a defensive position,) it is always better to expose more people to enemy fire. This is true even if the enemy is focusing their fire to kill your individual teammates as quickly as possible - in fact, it's especially true then. Your enemies simply cannot shoot effectively at two people at once; the human brain isn't set up that way, even if the 'mech could support the logistics. What this means is that the more of you the enemy has to shoot at, the better off you all are. Enemy fire will be spread amongst more targets (particularly in the solo matches that concern us,) and less effective overall. Share armor when it all hits the fan - you'll always be better for it.
  
• Learn to Scout. These days, lights have it hard. With the fixes to hit registration and the increased prevalence of LRMs and long-range weapons, it's very hard to do the scouting part of your job - to the point that some players (I'm looking at you, Firestarter pilots) will actually refuse to leave the team until the main fight starts. This is a mistake. You don't have to be running around on the other side of the map - and shouldn't be, if you can't survive alone out there. I get that; but you can and should still be out on the flanks watching for the enemy and relaying information to your team; use long sight distances instead of proximity to the enemy to look for them. Ditto with ECM snipers who never bother to tell the team what they're seeing from their semi-invisible vantage points. That being said, scouting is everyone's job, to a certain extent - if you see something important, call it out if you can. It's important. Giving the team that information allows them to make better judgements about what to do, and will help to break the positive feedback loop of excessive caution.
  
• Use Your Words. Get a microphone headset and use it. The cost is trivial compared to the price of a computer that can run the game, and voice communication is the most powerful tactical tool ever given to gamers. Don't chatter, and don't harangue your teammates - you only really need to call out short alert messages - like, "Three heavies in D3," or "Assault 'mechs behind us!"

The vicious cycle I've described here is actually a very common phenomenon that we're all aware of - it's a form of stage fright. Anxiety causes physical tension, which causes more anxiety, increasing physical tension, until the sufferer can't decide on any course of action and becomes tongue-tied and paralyzed. That's exactly the phenomenon we're seeing on the battlefield, just with tactics instead of public speaking - and like stage fright, all you have to do to break the cycle is move. Recognize that it's happening, and take specific action to break out of it, and eventually we'll see our fellow Mechwarriors start to get over it, too.

---

At the end of the day, you should be cautious up to a point - recklessness is the courage of a fool, after all. But you have to keep in mind that, just as you don't go to a knife fight without expecting to be cut, you can't go to a 'mech fight and not expect to be blasted apart and melted down into commemorative paperweights from time to time. The most important thing you can do is cooperate with your team, no matter what your build - maneuver for a flank shot with your sniper/missile build; being a "light killer" doesn't mean you can't scout so long as you stay close by the main body. If you can't focus fire from your position, you need to move, and if the big 'mech(s) are engaging, go in with them. Don't be stupid, but don't let fear (or tactical tunnel-vision) restrain you from helping the team. As one of the Fracking Atlas pilots, I do not mind dying a horrible death as long as the team backs me up - because teamwork, not fear, is the true key to survival.

Timidity is not a tactic.


Appendix I: The problem with camping

Spoiler

Recently, I've seen a lot of the sort of behavior that this guide encourages people to avoid. Upon reflection, aside from the points covered above, I suspect many players aren't understanding the tactical implications of staying in one spot for too long.

On the surface, it seems like a viable tactic: you set up your ambush, and wait for them to come to you. Wait for them to come just far enough into your trap, then smash their forward elements before they can react, gaining a decisive advantage. Sounds fun, and it's totally do-able... If you're a premade team with voice chat and experience playing with this tactic. Good on you, and well done, but this guide is dealing with the Pug/small group solo queue - by all means take what you can from it, but it is not for you.

Even with the advent of integrated VoIP, the general hesitancy of people in a pick-up match to immediately follow the orders of some random teammate makes camping a risky proposition. I'm not writing this to tell you not to set up ambushes - if you're feeling it with your team, by all means talk to each other and plan it out! But if you're not deliberately coordinating the ambush, I offer you these words of caution: camping is dangerous. It's not that the risk can't outweigh the reward, but understand that it is risky for a variety of reasons:

• Camping cedes the initiative to the enemy. A commonly-cited principle of self-defense is that most fistfights are won by the first good punch. Similarly, the first side in a match to have a significant portion of their tonnage killed or crippled is at a major disadvantage. By staying in one place and waiting to see what the enemy does, you're allowing him that first swing. Sure, he might miss, or start too slow so you can counter-punch - but he gets to decide where and how to hit you, and you have to respond. The opportunity to make the first mistake is yours.
  
• Camping muddles your forces' ability to react to enemy actions in a concerted manner. One of the ways a PUG communicates is by actions. When you are on the move, even without VoIP, you are all moving together, aside from the scouts (hopefully, but that's another thread.) This means that you're all going the same direction and seeing the same things. This means that people who aren't sure of the total situation can take their cue from those around them, and that in turn makes it easier for players to act in concert with one another. If you stop moving, your pilots' minds will wander; they'll start looking in different directions, moving around, getting impatient... They'll start making their own plans. So while the enemy who hits you from the flank is acting in concert, your teammates are at least momentarily unsure of what to do - and the enemy gets in that first good punch.
  
• The side that takes effective action wins. This touches on both the previous points, but it bears repeating. Whether in politics, videogames, or the very serious arena of modern war; the side that acts effectively wins. The best generals throughout history (yes, even Sun Tzu) desired the initiative, and suffered when they lost it. And it is very difficult, for reasons including those above, to take effective action from a static, defensive position - take a moment when your next match starts, and keep track of how long it takes everyone to get moving.

To be clear: fine art of the ambush should not be lost to MWO - nor must you always be charging randomly around the battlefield just for the sake of "doing something." I'm not telling you to never stop moving, or advocating any sort of "lemming bull-rush tactics." But you must realize that the lack of team cohesion inherent in the solo queue environment makes stopping and standing in place hazardous - you should only do it if you have a specific plan, and have actually used your words to tell everyone what's going on.

NOTICE! This guide has undergone major revisions as of May 9th, 2014! The original post can be found here.

And finally, I simply must recommend these Wonderful Tactical Illustrations, in whose creation I had no hand, but which I greatly admire, both for their simplicity and for the quality of their advice. Thank you all for reading through my giant wall of text advice!

Edited 16AUG2016: added "Share Armor," and updated throughout to account for the availability of reliable VOIP.

It's really unfortunate that you took the time to write this wall of text which is utter nonsense.

I think about the men and women who put on a uniform every day and go out into harms way. Then I hear some ninny calling people cowards over a video game. As if rushing head long into those pixelated lasers is the pinacle of bravery.

The other part that is frustrating and annoying is how this attitude shows a complete lack of insight into the nuances and strategy of the game that is MWO. Now I am a brawler... I think most people who are relatively new to the game, get to becoming a brawler first. At the higher levels though, there are those players who make incredibly smart trades and use terrain and cover to not take damage while wearing down the enemy. Any idiot (such as myself), can rush head long into the enemy with weapons blazing and twisting and turning, striking down enemies while you are simultaneously blown to pieces. High level players do not do this. They trade well and push when it makes sense to push because it is advantageous to do so.

So the next time you want to call or suggest that folks playing MWO are cowards for not following your strategy do two things. First, look up what the words bravery and cowardess mean while considering how it is not applicable to a video game where you are not in harms way and have absolutely nothing to lose. Second, go watch some high level play from either the World Championships or A/B div. of MRBC.

In closing until you actually have a better understanding of this game, you should consider not wasting your time writing 'guides' due to them not coming from a credible or knowledgeable source.

[Void Angel]

Son, I'm a two-tour, outside-the-wire veteran - my philosophy of Mechwarrior combat is based on my training and experience. Now, before you even start - no, you have no way to verify that, and I'm not going to expose my real life identity to some judgemental internet pundit. I bring it up only because you invoked my brotherhood of arms in a despicable attempt to shame me.

Your insulting diatribe ignores an important fact - you don't have the knowledge or experience to contradict me. You've been playing this game for four months and change. Your rebuttal consists of a simplistic generalization of meta tactics and a consequently fallacious appeal to the authority of "higher level players." It is in part to aid people who ape the meta without understanding it that this guide was written, as well as new players who end up assuming that exposure to damage is a lethal emergency in all cases. In addition, you've failed to successfully read my post despite quoting it in its entirety - the examples include multiple build types, and nothing in it explicitly encourages or discourages any tactic. Instead, it addresses negative playing habits which the game inadvertently cultivates, explains how this cultivation occurs, and recommends ways to defeat this conditioning and operate as a member of your team - even if the team is just camping behind rocks trying to ape the meta players.

Hand-waving a thoughtful post away with jingoistic nonsense and personal abuse does not demonstrate your superior moral standing, extensive knowledge, and keen grasp of the "nuances and strategy" of the game. On the contrary, it definitively demonstrates your lack of expertise. Come back with more than twenty weeks of playing experience and see if your rigidly inflexible thinking has broadened out a bit.

Edited by Void Angel, 06 December 2016 - 12:04 PM.

[Evil Goof]

Void Angel, on 06 December 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

Son, I'm a two-tour, outside-the-wire veteran - my philosophy of Mechwarrior combat is based on my training and experience. Now, before you even start - no, you have no way to verify that, and I'm not going to expose my real life identity to some judgemental internet pundit. I bring it up only because you invoked my brotherhood of arms in a despicable attempt to shame me.

You insulting diatribe ignores an important fact - you don't have the knowledge or experience to contradict me. You've been playing this game for four months and change. Your rebuttal consists of a simplistic generalization of meta tactics and a consequently fallacious appeal to the authority of "higher level players." It is in part to aid people who ape the meta without understanding it that this guide was written, as well as new players who end up assuming that exposure to damage is a lethal emergency in all cases. In addition, you've failed to successfully read my post despite quoting it in its entirety - the examples include multiple build types, and nothing in it explicitly encourages or discourages any tactic. Instead, it addresses negative playing habits which the game inadvertently cultivates, explains how this cultivation occurs, and recommends ways to defeat this conditioning and operate as a member of your team - even if the team is just camping behind rocks trying to ape the meta players.

Hand-waving a thoughtful post away with jingoistic nonsense and personal abuse does not demonstrate your superior moral standing, extensive knowledge, and keen grasp of the "nuances and strategy" of the game. On the contrary, it definitively demonstrates your lack of expertise. Come back with more than twenty weeks of playing experience and see if your rigidly inflexible thinking has broadened out a bit.

Listen child. I have nothing to fear so I sent you a message with my full name and location. Being that I am 6'6" and 360lbs, I am fairly confident and not much on cowardess.

What I said was based entirely on absolute nonsense you posted. I did not shame you, you said shameful and outright stupid things in relation to a video game. If you actually have had any service in the military, you should look inwards and evaluate calling people playing a video game cowards. Again it is strong evidence that you do not fully comprehend what the word brave even means. This is really based on how you applied it, not anything that I may have said or pointed out.

You're are also missing something...you do not have any way to determine how long I have been playing the game. You can make assumptions based on the limited information of when my profile was created. That however would be stupid. On top of this, anyone with some very basic understanding of the game could absolutely contradict what you are saying because despite your vast experience (your inference not my belief), you are not understanding the game in its entirety. It seems you are anti meta. Looking at EMP, SJR, MS, 228 and so on and so forth may be where some meta comes from. I do know that these teams often start trends along with mech releases and buffs. To immediately assume that when I mention high level play, I am going on about meta is again one of your misguided assumptions and further reinforces my point that you are not someone anyone new or otherwise should be paying any mind to.

Of course you can puff yourself up and continue to write garbage and call out cowardess on the imaginary pixelated battlefield while exhaulting the dubious and questionable knowlege from your self proclaimed service. I do not claim moral superiority. I call absolute bull**** on you using words like bravery or cowardess in context of a video game.

Edited by Evil Goof, 06 December 2016 - 01:56 PM.

[Blind Baku]

Void Angel, on 06 December 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

Son...

...Hand-waving a thoughtful post away with jingoistic nonsense and personal abuse does not demonstrate your superior moral standing, extensive knowledge, and keen grasp of the "nuances and strategy" of the game. On the contrary, it definitively demonstrates your lack of expertise. Come back with more than twenty weeks of playing experience and see if your rigidly inflexible thinking has broadened out a bit.

I get the whole "Don't pretend like internet lasers make you brave when people face real danger etc..." but the guide still stands as a solid piece of mech advice.

Timidity is death in any combat sim. Taking cover to reposition or get around an enemy for a better line of fire, or waiting to fire till you're right up in his rear armor, is not timidity... it's a tactical move. The guide isn't saying never take cover, it's saying don't stop moving.

Hiding in a choke point till the enemy can get around you, or take the high ground before your team can, is "wimpiness" or "fainthearted-ness" or some other synonym for lacking the "fortitude" or "mettle" to possibly loose your internet space robot.

TL;DR - OP is right.

Edited by Blind Baku, 06 December 2016 - 03:00 PM.

[Evil Goof]

Blind Baku, on 06 December 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

I get the whole "Don't pretend like internet lasers make you brave when people face real danger etc..." but the guide still stands as a solid piece of mech advice.

Timidity is death in any combat sim. Taking cover to reposition or get around an enemy for a better line of fire, or waiting to fire till you're right up in his rear armor, is not timidity... it's a tactical move. The guide isn't saying never take cover, it's saying don't stop moving.

Hiding in a choke point till the enemy can get around you, or take the high ground before your team can, is "wimpiness" or "fainthearted-ness" or some other synonym for lacking the "fortitude" or "mettle" to possibly loose your internet space robot.

TL;DR - OP is right.

No it is not. It might not be tactically sound. It may not be a smart move in the game. It may or can be a great number of things. What it is absolute and what is unassailable is that it is not nor can be described accurately as cowardess.

[Bazni]

Merriam-Webster would somewhat disagree with you. Perhaps if you searched under the term 'COWARDICE' you might discover that 1) your spelling needs help, and 2) timidity can indeed often accurately be described as cowardice. The OP is indeed giving sound advice, and you are metaphorically choosing an anthill upon which to die. Mountains are better for that sort of thing. Or so I've heard.

[Evil Goof]

Bazni, on 06 December 2016 - 04:59 PM, said:

Merriam-Webster would somewhat disagree with you. Perhaps if you searched under the term 'COWARDICE' you might discover that 1) your spelling needs help, and 2) timidity can indeed often accurately be described as cowardice. The OP is indeed giving sound advice, and you are metaphorically choosing an anthill upon which to die. Mountains are better for that sort of thing. Or so I've heard.

Spelling error aside no the dictionary does not disagree with me.
noun
1.
lack of courage to face danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.

Your excellent spelling skills aside, please work on basic comprehension.

IN A VIDEO GAME YOU ARE RISKING NOTHING.

[Void Angel]

Untrue. You're risking no physical danger, but it's not the same as "nothing." If it's legitimate to call a 'mech's death a "kill," then it's all right to say that, within the suspension of disbelief required for engagement in all fictional settings, the game trains cowardice. But let's not quibble over definitions - instead, let us talk about the points you made in disagreeing with the guide.

Oh wait - there aren't any. There's some insulting language, where you imply that it's morally improper of me to use a word you disliked, based on assumptions about the group of people to whom I belong. Then there's vague hand-waving and a fallacious appeal to authority - followed by a weak attempt to deny the implication of your statements, and some more appeals to common wisdom. And you apparently hope I don't wonder why you're trolling with an alt account - assuming you actually are more veteran than your current account indicates.

So you have presented arrogance, textbook-bad logic, and insults - but no actual treatment of the material. In fact, you have yet to even understand the material, or apparently read my previous rebuttals. Please remember that your flaming, while mildly irritating, is obvious to others for what it is - and is bumping my thread. Thank you for that, and let us know if you decide to try to understand.

[Wintersdark]

Evil Goof, on 06 December 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

Spelling error aside no the dictionary does not disagree with me.
noun
1.
lack of courage to face danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.

Your excellent spelling skills aside, please work on basic comprehension.

IN A VIDEO GAME YOU ARE RISKING NOTHING.

You're risking time, stats (bragging rights, social status), potential income (you can only play so many matches per day), and thus lost progress. That may not be important to you personally, but really nobody cares how badass you want to think you are.

What IS relevant is the guide is correct in terms of what you should and should not do in a match.

Make a relevant point about the guide, or your just making useless noise.

[Wintersdark]

Void Angel, on 06 December 2016 - 07:44 PM, said:

So you have presented arrogance, textbook-bad logic, and insults - but no actual treatment of the material. In fact, you have yet to even understand the material, or apparently read my previous rebuttals. Please remember that your flaming, while mildly irritating, is obvious to others for what it is - and is bumping my thread. Thank you for that, and let us know if you decide to try to understand.

It's painfully obvious to everyone else what a sad, sorry little man he is. I mean, it's one thing to present an argument that ends up being wrong or ill informed, but the moment someone feels it's necessary to say how big and scary they are IRL you know they're just a sad, sad little man desperately in need of internet validation.

[Void Angel]

He's not even doing that - he's just trying to steal moral high ground by invoking the uniformed services.

[Evil Goof]

Wintersdark, on 06 December 2016 - 08:16 PM, said:

You're risking time, stats (bragging rights, social status), potential income (you can only play so many matches per day), and thus lost progress. That may not be important to you personally, but really nobody cares how badass you want to think you are.

What IS relevant is the guide is correct in terms of what you should and should not do in a match.

Make a relevant point about the guide, or your just making useless noise.

I appreciate that you do not agree with my point. However my point is that calling people cowards over a video game is incredibly stupid. What you are talking about is incredibly meaningless in the real world.

[Wintersdark]

Evil Goof, on 06 December 2016 - 09:10 PM, said:

I appreciate that you do not agree with my point. However my point is that calling people cowards over a video game is incredibly stupid. What you are talking about is incredibly meaningless in the real world.

Nobody is talking about the real world. The real world has no relevance here. So, yes, it's meaningless in the real world... So? As I said, you can be an utter coward in the game and the bravest person in the world irl, but you're still a coward in the game.

All that matters is psychology as it pertains to the game itself.

[Darkhorse13Golf]

Dude that was a pretty fair assessment. I run a lot of LRM boats but I play pretty close to the front line and have no qualms from switching from LRMs to lasers and front line tanking it if necessary. I also try to keep mobile and aid a guy out on the flanks if requested/needed. Now, that being said I have been immediately punished for some actions enough from snide or uncaring teammates that I also see myself backing off and not playing as aggressive a game as I should and though I do try to override this it isn't always a successful thing. I mean if all I'm going to get is a bunch of crap from teammates or even worse, no help or comms at all why should I keep sticking my neck out for nothing. This thread needs to be read by everyone and make people rethink their piloting style. Good thread.

Edited by Darkhorse13Golf, 06 December 2016 - 09:28 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Void Angel, on 06 December 2016 - 09:01 PM, said:

He's not even doing that - he's just trying to steal moral high ground by invoking the uniformed services.

That's such a bizarrely American thing right there.

[Evil Goof]

Void Angel, on 06 December 2016 - 07:44 PM, said:

Untrue. You're risking no physical danger, but it's not the same as "nothing." If it's legitimate to call a 'mech's death a "kill," then it's all right to say that, within the suspension of disbelief required for engagement in all fictional settings, the game trains cowardice. But let's not quibble over definitions - instead, let us talk about the points you made in disagreeing with the guide.

Oh wait - there aren't any. There's some insulting language, where you imply that it's morally improper of me to use a word you disliked, based on assumptions about the group of people to whom I belong. Then there's vague hand-waving and a fallacious appeal to authority - followed by a weak attempt to deny the implication of your statements, and some more appeals to common wisdom. And you apparently hope I don't wonder why you're trolling with an alt account - assuming you actually are more veteran than your current account indicates.

So you have presented arrogance, textbook-bad logic, and insults - but no actual treatment of the material. In fact, you have yet to even understand the material, or apparently read my previous rebuttals. Please remember that your flaming, while mildly irritating, is obvious to others for what it is - and is bumping my thread. Thank you for that, and let us know if you decide to try to understand.

You can deflect all you want. You are calling people playing a game cowards. A video game. It is so incredibly ridiculous and absurd to do so that it patently invalidates and discredits anything you might have to say (to me at least). I find it incredible that you claim military service and still insist that it is correct or appropriate to refer to anyone playing a game as a coward.

Your tactic and explainations are completely irrelevent when your thesis behind it is so ignorant.

You say I am flaming. That is not my intent. I am truly sickened by you and others calling people cowards over a game. I find it deeply offensive for many reasons including the ones I have already mentioned.

Insults have been tossed around both ways. I have my opinion and you call people playing a video games cowards. Some will certainly side with you as the immersion can be quite fierce in this game and community. Maybe some really fresh people might find some of your 'guide' helpful. Your ego is frightfully overblown however if you believe you have the breadth of reach to have a deep and meaningful impact on the populace of the community as a teacher.

I could go into your guide and nit pick at points and come up with counters and so on and so forth. However I am cetainly willing to admit that, this would not be my expertise (sort of throwing you a bone here) and I would not necessarily be right or able to prove you wrong. I do not even lay claim to be a better pilot than you are. Quite likely worse. It's a game, so not really a big deal cause being a good husband, son, father, employee, friend, etc are way higher on my list.

What you can glean from this however is that I am very passionate about life and a huge fan of the game with lots invested in it. You can also tell that I am beyond irritated by your usage of the word cowardice to the point of being completely and utterly put off by you. Certainly we can't like everyone and not everyone will be friends. At one point I had hoped that somehow you would come around to some small sort of reckoning and realise that the use of the word coward was not appropriate in this case. Perhaps I my anger came across so strong you were unable to step back and reasonably assess the use of the word coward. Maybe you honestly believe it is absolutely appropriate to call people cowards...playing a video game. I certainly do not believe that you could go into a lecture hall full of veterens and get them on board with how there are brave MWO players and there are camping/hiding cowards playing the game....

Edited by Evil Goof, 06 December 2016 - 09:55 PM.

[Evil Goof]

Wintersdark, on 06 December 2016 - 09:25 PM, said:

Nobody is talking about the real world. The real world has no relevance here. So, yes, it's meaningless in the real world... So? As I said, you can be an utter coward in the game and the bravest person in the world irl, but you're still a coward in the game.

All that matters is psychology as it pertains to the game itself.

When you are talking to real people with real experience who live in the real world, who may also play MWO, certainly there is a ton of relevence and meaning to words. You would not call someone a ********* to insult them cause you are angry over team damage or some other offence and expect that this insult would have no meaning??? Words and insults have meaning, period. Calling someone a coward in the game is stupid. Actually pretty much getting angry or calling anyone, anything is foolish but that is a whole other thread about the psychology of gaming.

[NRP]

Geezuz, when did Void's thread get turned into a pissing contest?

[Evil Goof]

Wintersdark, on 06 December 2016 - 09:36 PM, said:

That's such a bizarrely American thing right there.

Funny because I (like you) am Canadian.

[Darkhorse13Golf]

Wintersdark, on 06 December 2016 - 09:36 PM, said:

That's such a bizarrely American thing right there.

Not really bizarre.... reprehensible in this case, but not bizarre.