783 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

NoName2341, on 20 January 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

This really is a great topic with great discussion going on. As an assault pilot I can confidently say that two well placed assaults will win you a game that seems like you just can't win. Just because an assault isn't attacking doesn't mean they are timid it usually means they are waiting for an opportunity to strike. [Edited for space; story in backlink, if anyone wants to reference]

Thanks for the compliment, but omgwalloftext! Formatting, man! Formatting!

I do have to disagree with you a bit, though - very often an assault is hanging back because they're not wanting to take the hits. This may be because they don't trust the team to support them, or because they've embraced the toxic attitude of viewing their teammates as cannon fodder and shields, or because they're trapped in the passive hide-and-see mentality the game trains into the unwary - but it's usually not because they're waiting for the right moment to jump into the fray. The story you told is a case in point of timidity working against a team - the enemy had numerical superiority for most of the match, but they hid and peeked - taking turns at getting shot by your remaining teammates - instead of moving in to make use of their crushing numerical superiority. Certainly your flanking maneuver succeeded, but if they had moved up to fight like they should have, they'd have crushed your team while you were maneuvering on the flank, then turned and mopped you up. Instead, they cowered at your team even when up a significant number of kills, did no scouting, and ran instead of fighting when caught.

Maneuvering on the field is great, and you should keep doing it; timing and commitment are also important, and I hope you keep that up as well. But while your story does illustrate what I'm trying to get at in this guide beautifully, it's not necessarily supporting the point you were making in your post. =)

Edited by Void Angel, 04 February 2015 - 03:23 PM.

[purplewasabi]

Shade4x, on 20 January 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

So I would like to propose an idea, a risky but awesome idea. Any time you find one of these commander ralph types, who are hiding behind a rock, and letting their team die.... shoot em. Just blow off an arm or two. It's the only way we are going to solve this problem. In fact i'm going to wear a blue ribbon on my mech to support this idea.

I remember the last time someone did this to me while I was in my Atlas. Verbal abuse to shooting lasers at my back. It was on Terra Therma, on one of the narrow ramps. When my rear CT was cored, I turned around. Took him and some of his cronies out before I went down.

Forgive me master for I have sinned. I know its wrong, but it felt soooooo good watching him trying to run away, his own cronies blocking his escape.

edit: Was peeking/scouting with my Atlas because there were no volunteers. Makes sense to be extra cautious.

Edited by purplewasabi, 05 February 2015 - 03:30 PM.

[rolling thunder]

Shade4x, on 20 January 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

So I would like to propose an idea, a risky but awesome idea. Any time you find one of these commander ralph types, who are hiding behind a rock, and letting their team die.... shoot em. Just blow off an arm or two. It's the only way we are going to solve this problem. In fact i'm going to wear a blue ribbon on my mech to support this idea.

I don't like this idea at all. In fact it would spoil any game for me if it happened to me or I saw it happening to someone else. I would report the behaviour. I don't agree with shooting any team mate for any reason {unless they are attacking you}. It bugs me getting shot by people "testing" their weapons{that is what the testing grounds are for}. You don't see people with real firearms test shooting the weapons before going on the range {I know these aren't real weapons} .It may only take 1% off your health but that may make a difference??

[Chaosbarbarian]

Just want to put a word in supporting Void Angel, Obviously I don't post alot, but I do play alot and read alot. It has been my experience generally getting back to the point, that in pug games especially the tactic is to "sheep",

Ie. all follow the first one to move away even slightly from the group, even if they are just repositioning!!, suddenly two mechs move past the repositioning one and then he too follows them and so on.

Its like in a playground fight, everybody stands off until some poor fool engages (and he usually gets killed first) or until one side looks like losing and then its chase the routers.

Timidity may not be a tactic but it sure is the basis of most games

[Void Angel]

Thanks, man! You left out the inverse of your movement technique - everyone standing around trying to hide behind each other. I call it "flockasheeping." For a fun project, look at your map about 15 seconds after the first volley of enemy LRMs comes rolling in - chances are, all the blue/green triangles are going to be huddled together pointing a couple different directions. It looks like a flock of frightened sheep.

Because of the way the game trains passivity into us, many players will try to feel their way along just as you describe; when no one moves, they'll sort of mill around and either camp or peek around corners to take turns getting shot in the face by several enemies at a time. Many times it becomes very difficult for them to make a decision after this, because not only is their teammates' inaction (combined with scary incoming fire) paralyzing their little sheep-brains, but, since nobody has eyes on the battlefield any more, it's hard to know where the enemy players really are.

[Void Angel]

purplewasabi, on 04 February 2015 - 12:33 AM, said:

I remember the last time someone did this to me while I was in my Atlas. Verbal abuse to shooting lasers at my back. It was on Terra Therma, on one of the narrow ramps. When my rear CT was cored, I turned around. Took him and some of his cronies out before I went down.

Forgive me master for I have sinned. I know its wrong, but it felt soooooo good watching him trying to run away, his cronies blocking his escape.

edit: Was peeking/scouting with my Atlas because there were no volunteers. Makes sense to be extra cautious.

rolling thunder, on 04 February 2015 - 02:33 AM, said:

I don't like this idea at all. In fact it would spoil any game for me if it happened to me or I saw it happening to someone else. I would report the behaviour. I don't agree with shooting any team mate for any reason {unless they are attacking you}.

Yeah, as I Pointed Out to Him, shooting your teammates isn't ok. It screws up the flow of the game and tends to take people out of combat. I remember having to leg a Hunchback a while ago, to prevent him from lasering the rest of us in the back as we tried to run Terra Therma. The goon had opened the match by blasting our locust in the back before he could move at the start of the match - then he proved it wasn't an accident by waiting for the rest of the team to leave then going after the Spider who'd come back to look the situation over. He wasn't very good - presumably he self-destructed after I legged him. Still the match was close, but being down three 'Mechs at the start of combat just wasn't recoverable for our team.

So! Don't do that crap - self-defense is one thing, and only as a last resort, but we do not vent our frustrations on our teamates by verbal harassment or weapons fire; if we cannot play nicely with the other children, it's time to go sit in the corner - or just to stay home.

As a postscript, however, allow me to suggest that no matter what the situation, peeking into the caldera on Terra Therma is seldom a good practice? If they're in there, you're going to take turns getting shot by most or all of their team, and if they're not there, you should be moving in to control the area.

Edited by Void Angel, 04 February 2015 - 04:19 PM.

[Gift of the Magi]

I'm a bit new here, and I admit I am not the best player in the game. I'd be surprised if I qualified in the 50% range. However I have to admit my biggest frustration isn't my level of skill, but how many times I join a game and my team always goes for the same location...and sits.

And sits. and sits. and sits.

Too often, I have moved in with a group of mechs and noticed that at the moment we engaged the enemy, the entire team has run back to cover just as the shooting starts. Which leaves me in the open fighting off a lance with my poor S-Hawk or Hunchy. Too often I notice that a flank is open and try to encourage people to move toward it...and be ignore while they chase a Light. Too often I sit in an area blocked by mechs taking pot-shots through a narrow gap while half the team sits around behind them unable to get past.

Lately I have tried to change this by following any rogue element that breaks away from the pack, even if it seems at first a bit dangerous. Sometimes I get rewarded with this by catching some flanking units off-guard...and sometimes we get crushed.

I'm not sure how to motivate people into action. In this game, tactical aggression is key: take the initiative, control the battlefield, get the enemy reacting instead of thinking. It does not mean not using cover or charging out like a fool...but it does mean keep pushing toward them. If the front does not work, hit both sides. Take the majority of the field away from them. Spread out a bit and refuse them focus fire. Every time I have had a team that did that, we win.

[rolling thunder]

I'm hoping that one day i'll get a chance to use the Artillery strike on the mass of opponents Mechs. But all to often I've gone round an object or over the top & they are all looking at me {probably grinning?} & open fire together. The one time I got it right someone in my team had used the Arti strike so it wasn't ready... doh!

[Gift of the Magi]

Or when you pop around a corner and see a lance of mechs...and the guy in front of you starts backing up instead of taking the cover in front of him or allowing the 6-8 teammates to get around and help him, thus blocking everyone, getting himself killed and weakening the team.

[Hammer 13]

I am the 'poor fool' usually. All I have is Hunchbacks and I find myself leading the charge because I refuse to stand still waiting to die. I usually rush to some point I like and have LRM cover, and wait about 60 secs(probably more like 10 sec's). If I am still the lead man I try to give some direction "Follow me" or "Move up and cover" and then it's go time. I don't mind dying if I see the rain of LRM's falling on the mechs surrounding my hull. Thats always cool. Then I start flipping thru my teams cockpits to see who is looking in a direction that will allow me to direct the team if I can.

Anytime, and every time, I see an assault mech actually moving up to the front I pick a side and support. The 2-3 times, yes only 2 or 3 times, I did this we won. And on one such occasion me that that Direwolf were the only 2 standing at the end. That game was EPIC!

The only reason I don't buy another HB is so I can get something bigger. If I have to lead, I need bigger guns and alot more armor.

And routinely use air strikes after I peek and find the whole unit around the corner!

Edited by ORION OMA, 05 February 2015 - 09:28 AM.

[Void Angel]

Artillery strikes are generally more effective, but you can use airstrikes to hit the enemy without warning if you drop the smoke where they can't see. =) It's almost impossible to see the plane coming in time to get out of the way.

As a Hunchback pilot myself, I would discourage you from leading a push yourself; you just can't soak up enough damage, no matter how you twist. Instead, try to encourage your team to move up, saying things like, "I need an Assault to support up here," or "they're split up; hit the ones in B4 and we can take them." If they still insist on flockasheeping, it's best to be patient and either pick an assault to back up (tell them this) or act as a flank picket to kill light scouts and give warning to the group if the enemy tries to flank.

I'd also actually recommend that you buy a third hunchback if you don't have any, even if you're saving up. Having three will allow you to get your Elite skills fully bought, which in turn will double the Basic bonuses - not to mention the extra module slot can be important. Doubled masteries alone make any chassis almost a new 'mech.

[purplewasabi]

Most of us still keeps an eye on chat and actually reacts to it, so I'd say keep communicating. It just depends on how lucky you are. Some games I will type out loads of info but no action was taken, and I die in a great ball of fire alone. Sometimes I get lucky, found some like-minded individuals and I get a beautiful game.

Edited by purplewasabi, 05 February 2015 - 04:03 PM.

[Gift of the Magi]

ORION OMA, on 05 February 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

I am the 'poor fool' usually. All I have is Hunchbacks and I find myself leading the charge because I refuse to stand still waiting to die. I usually rush to some point I like and have LRM cover, and wait about 60 secs(probably more like 10 sec's). If I am still the lead man I try to give some direction "Follow me" or "Move up and cover" and then it's go time. I don't mind dying if I see the rain of LRM's falling on the mechs surrounding my hull. Thats always cool. Then I start flipping thru my teams cockpits to see who is looking in a direction that will allow me to direct the team if I can.

Anytime, and every time, I see an assault mech actually moving up to the front I pick a side and support. The 2-3 times, yes only 2 or 3 times, I did this we won. And on one such occasion me that that Direwolf were the only 2 standing at the end. That game was EPIC!

The only reason I don't buy another HB is so I can get something bigger. If I have to lead, I need bigger guns and alot more armor.

And routinely use air strikes after I peek and find the whole unit around the corner!

Thanks to the recent sales, I now have four Hunchies (4G, 4P, 4J and 4SP) and I find them a lot of fun. In a match recently, I was running Flash Bang (my 4P) around and suddenly everyone falls back from a push. I hold ground and take cover, let the rush go past me, and then start blasting into back armor. Unfortunately the rush was too good and I find myself facing a Dire Wolf, a Centurion and a Jagermech. So **** it, It get stuck in and go point blank.

I lost, but I took the Centurion and Jager to hell with me along with half the Dire Wolf. It was awesome.

Yes the Hunchback are not all that tough but don't under-estimate their firepower nor get timid with them. They are brutal little gremlins that can core out a heavy given the chance. If my line had not fallen back and instead moved left and right, we could have won with a crossfire, but I was proud of my little purple guy.

[Hammer 13]

I have mastered the 4G, 4P and 4J. I was going to move up to an ORION but felt like I was walking in quicksand and couln't stand it.

I do really good some days, and just bad others. I follow the "Victory thru aggression" concept and totally agree with pressing the enemy where they are, not waiting for them to come to where I am.

The 4P(9ML's), is the least fun to drive but I always score better than either of the others. I don't know what it is that I like about my 4G (3MLAC20) better, I never do as well in it, but I just do. The 4J is my 'fall back'. When the other 2 are just getting me killed I stand in back and chunk rockets with the rest of the sheeple. Even then I am flanking and tagging. I even consider my teams angle to targets and try not to lock anything they can't hit. Priority to those they can, or my biggest personal threat, then everything else from biggest to smallest. I rack up some c-bills in those games, but I'd still rather see the laser burning thru thier hulls or cockpit rock back as the AC20 round pounds them!

If I had jj's, that would change everything. I consider myself a 'flanking' specialist at times. But you need some speed for that, and enough punch when you get there. It gets me killed alot, but it's fun. Most of the time.

[Nastyogre]

VoidAngel, I consider your post on timidity to be the single most important post for every player of MWO to read. Do I agree with every point? eehh, no. So close it doesn't matter. I push PUGs with your ideas and when the PUGs listen, we win, most of the time.

Preach on my brother.

[Ursh]

Part of the timidity has to do with guys wanting to clean up on trashed mechs at the end of the match. They call it "tactical" play, but the reality is that someone has to engage the enemy in battle, and most mechs aren't fast enough to achieve perfect ambush positions in every single match, unless the entire enemy team consists of fools, in which case it's going to be an easy roll regardless.

It's one thing to charge stupidly, but sometimes you can't be bothered to wait around all day while the sheep are busy hiding behind each other in some stupid location. Go out guns blazing, because being the last guy to die in a 12-1 roll carries no badge of honor.

[YueFei]

Ursh, on 08 February 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

Part of the timidity has to do with guys wanting to clean up on trashed mechs at the end of the match.

To be honest, I don't think that's the motivation for most of the players who are timid. Maybe for some of them, but not all of them. I don't think timid players are generally being selfish, they're just scared to get themselves killed and let the team down.

It's not that they are literally scared of dying, it's only a game after all. What they fear is failure.

Like, a kid told to go play wide receiver but he runs his routes half-heartedly because he's scared to get the ball thrown his way... he lacks the confidence to make the play.

The way to shake that fear of failure is for veteran players to tutor new players on how to engage the enemy without being suicidally reckless. How to peek, how to shield, how to position both to support teammates and to be supported by teammates. That kind of thing.

Just learning how to be able to shield properly improves a newbie's survival rate and game experience 200%. Instead of turning a corner and face-tanking everything and getting gibbed in 5 seconds, a new player can turn a corner, and by shielding he can survive 4 or 5 times as much abuse without dying.

Some games I screw up and don't react fast enough and die from taking 90 damage to the CT. That sucks. Other games I do it properly and I've soaked up well over 300 damage and I'm still alive. In fact it might be 300 damage I took, but because of damage transfer getting reduced, the enemy probably threw 500+ damage worth of firepower at me, but I just soaked it with a dead side torso.

[Void Angel]

I agree, YueFei - though it bears mentioning that you will find advocates of toxic, counterproductive tactics like hanging back to clean up, using your teammates as decoys/fodder, etc. Still, while such players exist, they are in the minority - most players are simply playing the game they way the game trains them to play it. The game conditions people toward long-range combat and damage avoidance, while simultaneously pushing them away from close-range combat and accepting damage in order to win. Until and unless that situation is rectified, the only hope we have to affect the problem is education. =)

As for the people deliberately trying to exploit their teammates, I think that more role-based rewards would help, as would an overall increase in c-bill income. If players are engaging in toxic behaviors to get c-bills, the way that c-bills are handed out should be considered as a driving factor. Right now, rewards are just too slow, and still too dependent on kill-related activity. Play rewards are supposed to encourage you to keep playing, but I don't play for the c-bills: I can't, because if I watch the c-bills, I get frustrated and impatient; then I consider buying c-bills with MC - then I look at the prices and just turn off the game in disgust. If players were given more c-bills to play with - and rewarded more for doing things other than killing - they might be more inclined to try new builds and playstyles - rather than crippling their own team in order to reap rewards at others' expense.

[YueFei]

Void Angel, on 08 February 2015 - 08:19 PM, said:

I agree, YueFei - though it bears mentioning that you will find advocates of toxic, counterproductive tactics like hanging back to clean up, using your teammates as decoys/fodder, etc. Still, while such players exist, they are in the minority - most players are simply playing the game they way the game trains them to play it. The game conditions people toward long-range combat and damage avoidance, while simultaneously pushing them away from close-range combat and accepting damage in order to win. Until and unless that situation is rectified, the only hope we have to affect the problem is education. =)

Yeah, I don't know how to change the behavior of truly toxic / selfish players. All the efforts of your guide are much more likely to positively influence the well-meaning player. You're right, the unforgiving nature of the game makes newer players very risk-averse. Your guide tries to teach these players that it's OK to take a hit sometimes, as long as you're taking that hit with a goal in mind. Like you said, "Damage is like Water".

Maybe you could add a section in your guide for personal-survival tips? Or maybe you could put a link to another forum post that covers that topic. I think players are more likely to be bold if they learn some techniques that increase their odds of surviving enemy fire (other than the technique of clinging to a rock ).

Quote

As for the people deliberately trying to exploit their teammates, I think that more role-based rewards would help, as would an overall increase in c-bill income. If players are engaging in toxic behaviors to get c-bills, the way that c-bills are handed out should be considered as a driving factor. Right now, rewards are just too slow, and still too dependent on kill-related activity. Play rewards are supposed to encourage you to keep playing, but I don't play for the c-bills: I can't, because if I watch the c-bills, I get frustrated and impatient; then I consider buying c-bills with MC - then I look at the prices and just turn off the game in disgust. If players were given more c-bills to play with - and rewarded more for doing things other than killing - they might be more inclined to try new builds and playstyles - rather than crippling their own team in order to reap rewards at others' expense.

Yeah, the game could definitely reward roles better. It seems that the potential is there, since the game now has funny rewards like "flanking" (which you can get by hitting an enemy and not getting hit in return, even if you did it from the front and he was looking right at you, LOL).

I'm thinking a reward for Light mechs distracting the enemy should reward more, the game can track when the enemy fires at the Light mech. Reward the Light mech for:
1.) The enemy shots that the pilot dodges.
2.) Damage landed by friendlies upon the enemies that are shooting at the Light mech.

It could also reward the tanking role in a similar two-fold way:
1.) Reward the player who is tanking for the damage reduction through damage transfer from dead arm-stumps and dead side-torsos / legs. E.g.: you twist right and get hit in the dead left torso, which transfers 40% of the damage to your CT. The game rewards you for the 60% of the damage that you denied.
2.) Reward the player who is tanking for the damage that his friendly teammates inflict upon the enemy while he is taking enemy fire.

Basically, there are activities which help contribute to the team's victory, but are very self-less acts that put the player in danger and don't reward him or her for it. By recognizing and rewarding this behavior, it can be fostered and encouraged.

[Tim East]

YueFei, on 09 February 2015 - 12:27 AM, said:

Yeah, I don't know how to change the behavior of truly toxic / selfish players. All the efforts of your guide are much more likely to positively influence the well-meaning player. You're right, the unforgiving nature of the game makes newer players very risk-averse. Your guide tries to teach these players that it's OK to take a hit sometimes, as long as you're taking that hit with a goal in mind. Like you said, "Damage is like Water".

Maybe you could add a section in your guide for personal-survival tips? Or maybe you could put a link to another forum post that covers that topic. I think players are more likely to be bold if they learn some techniques that increase their odds of surviving enemy fire (other than the technique of clinging to a rock ).



Yeah, the game could definitely reward roles better. It seems that the potential is there, since the game now has funny rewards like "flanking" (which you can get by hitting an enemy and not getting hit in return, even if you did it from the front and he was looking right at you, LOL).

I'm thinking a reward for Light mechs distracting the enemy should reward more, the game can track when the enemy fires at the Light mech. Reward the Light mech for:
1.) The enemy shots that the pilot dodges.
2.) Damage landed by friendlies upon the enemies that are shooting at the Light mech.

It could also reward the tanking role in a similar two-fold way:
1.) Reward the player who is tanking for the damage reduction through damage transfer from dead arm-stumps and dead side-torsos / legs. E.g.: you twist right and get hit in the dead left torso, which transfers 40% of the damage to your CT. The game rewards you for the 60% of the damage that you denied.
2.) Reward the player who is tanking for the damage that his friendly teammates inflict upon the enemy while he is taking enemy fire.

Basically, there are activities which help contribute to the team's victory, but are very self-less acts that put the player in danger and don't reward him or her for it. By recognizing and rewarding this behavior, it can be fostered and encouraged.

I actually had a suggestion for this back when rewards first came out that if an enemy had targeted you and taken damage in the back armor, you should get a tanking reward of some sort. Kind of a flanking counterpart thing.