22 replies to this topic

[LarkinOmega]

Once the State Rewind is in place we can remove the locking mechanic from SSRMs and instead give them the auto hit* if the reticle is over an enemy mech, and not allow them to fire otherwise (ECM not withstanding).

This would solve most of the problems with the SSRM, as there is no lock, and it takes skill to keep on a target even if that is modified by the auto-hit* mechanic.

*Ideally this wouldn't be an auto-hit, more like the table top with the no fire if a miss. With state rewind, checking this wouldn't be too hard to do.
weaponFireRequest -> checkHitState -> ifYes(weaponFire) -> applyDamage
instead of
weaponFire -> checkHitState -> ifYes(applyDamage)

Edit: Added poll as per the sticky.

Edited by LarkinOmega, 05 March 2013 - 07:11 PM.

[WardenWolf]

I'm not sure I understand why this is necessary. S-SRMs have to be kept with reticle on target every couple of seconds anyways, or the lock is lost... I would think being able to brush across a target and fire at the right time wouldn't be any harder (might even be easier).

[warner2]

That's how it worked in MW4 and I've suggested it before. Good idea.

WardenWolf, on 04 March 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

I'm not sure I understand why this is necessary. S-SRMs have to be kept with reticle on target every couple of seconds anyways, or the lock is lost... I would think being able to brush across a target and fire at the right time wouldn't be any harder (might even be easier).

It would definitely be harder, to some degree at least.

Remember, modules like the target decay/retention module boosts streak users and means they are even less likely to have a lock broken even if their target moves behind a building.

[Stringburka]

This is how it works in MW4 and it's a good solution.

It would make their accuracy about that of lasers, so a SSRM-2 could be very well compared to a medium laser, where the SSRM requires a little bit of ammo (50 shots per ton) and half a ton extra to equip, but produces far less heat. Hit sliiightly better but have a .5 longer cooldown. Not requiring you to face the enemy for a full second, but having less maximum range.

[LarkinOmega]

With the advent (and extreme success) of the State Rewind for lasers, this is more and more plausible.

[Torquemada]

I really like this idea. It would solve various issues such as making SSRM's more pilot skill dependent (if slightly altered as below) and also hit whatever you were aiming at.

Changes I would suggest are:

1) It only fires once the reticle is retained over a target for 0.5 seconds after pulling the trigger. This simply stops poor pilors holding the SSRM button down so anytime they sweep their crosshairs over a target they fire off and hit it, it means slightly more skill is required.

2) They still shouldn't be treated as a laser in the sense that they hit the instant they fire. Yes, they fly fast but, they should still track to the point the crosshairs are targetting. At under 50m away from an enemy they will probably take a fraction of a second to hit, but even so if the crosshairs move off the target in that fraction they miss. The further out the longer naturally, I would imagine at 270m max range as it stands they must take almost a full second to reach the target, as such the reticle would have to stay on target for that duration or at least move back on target just before they reach it.

[LarkinOmega]

I can't support your first suggestion, as that changes the way SSRMs would relate to SRMs (that is, they should be effectively the same, just with SSRMs not firing if they were going to miss).

For your second one, of course. They're still missiles and have the missile flight time and handling characteristics. Would it need a bit more predictive algorithms Yes, but the server can handle a missile check in less time than it takes the missile to actually hit the target. This would allow for pilots with the right skills and mech handling to dodge streaks, but that's such an edge case that it shouldn't be a focus.

[focuspark]

This would be worse than what we have now. This would allow snap firing of SSRM without the need to at least wait for a lockon. As proposed, so long as your aiming at the target when launched the missiles home in and connect. How is this better in any way?

Torquemada, on 06 March 2013 - 02:05 AM, said:

I really like this idea. It would solve various issues such as making SSRM's more pilot skill dependent (if slightly altered as below) and also hit whatever you were aiming at.

Changes I would suggest are:

1) It only fires once the reticle is retained over a target for 0.5 seconds after pulling the trigger. This simply stops poor pilors holding the SSRM button down so anytime they sweep their crosshairs over a target they fire off and hit it, it means slightly more skill is required.

2) They still shouldn't be treated as a laser in the sense that they hit the instant they fire. Yes, they fly fast but, they should still track to the point the crosshairs are targetting. At under 50m away from an enemy they will probably take a fraction of a second to hit, but even so if the crosshairs move off the target in that fraction they miss. The further out the longer naturally, I would imagine at 270m max range as it stands they must take almost a full second to reach the target, as such the reticle would have to stay on target for that duration or at least move back on target just before they reach it.

This is similar to a suggestion I posted a while back:

SSRM should emit a 270m laser when fired for up to 2.0 seconds. If kept on target for 0.5 seconds continuously or 1.0 seconds cumulatively, the missiles fire and work as they do now. If not, they should not fire, not waste ammo, and not generate heat.

And no, SRM/SSRM are vry slow projectiles.

[Hotthedd]

Stringburka, on 05 March 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

This is how it works in MW4 and it's a good solution.

It would make their accuracy about that of lasers, so a SSRM-2 could be very well compared to a medium laser, where the SSRM requires a little bit of ammo (50 shots per ton) and half a ton extra to equip, but produces far less heat. Hit sliiightly better but have a .5 longer cooldown. Not requiring you to face the enemy for a full second, but having less maximum range.

I have found that I am MORE accurate with lasers than SSRMs, according to the Stats page.

[General Taskeen]

Hotthedd, on 06 March 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

I have found that I am MORE accurate with lasers than SSRMs, according to the Stats page.

Are you firing streaks too late and having them hit buildings or terrain? This is often the case, since in the open your SSRM missiles should hit 100% as currently programmed whether or not you keep the crosshair engaged.

[LarkinOmega]

focuspark, on 06 March 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

This would be worse than what we have now. This would allow snap firing of SSRM without the need to at least wait for a lockon. As proposed, so long as your aiming at the target when launched the missiles home in and connect. How is this better in any way?


This is similar to a suggestion I posted a while back:

SSRM should emit a 270m laser when fired for up to 2.0 seconds. If kept on target for 0.5 seconds continuously or 1.0 seconds cumulatively, the missiles fire and work as they do now. If not, they should not fire, not waste ammo, and not generate heat.

And no, SRM/SSRM are vry slow projectiles.

You're reading what I said incorrectly. As long as the missiles would hit normally, then they would fire. With SRMs against a moving target that takes leading, leading is a skill learned through long practice. With SSRMs that would mean that you would need to know the lead, and be able to hit the button at the right time. Streaks were never an always hit mechanic, they were an Ammo efficiency mechanic. It still takes pilot skill to hit.

Which was my primary reason for this post. We need to reintroduce pilot skill to the SSRM.

[focuspark]

LarkinOmega, on 06 March 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

You're reading what I said incorrectly. As long as the missiles would hit normally, then they would fire. With SRMs against a moving target that takes leading, leading is a skill learned through long practice. With SSRMs that would mean that you would need to know the lead, and be able to hit the button at the right time. Streaks were never an always hit mechanic, they were an Ammo efficiency mechanic. It still takes pilot skill to hit.

Which was my primary reason for this post. We need to reintroduce pilot skill to the SSRM.

Ahh - so you're suggesting adding hit prediction which some how takes into account the other mech's potential movements. How? Missiles would still miss which is not how SSRM are supposed to work. What do you think of my suggestion compared to yours?

[LarkinOmega]

focuspark, on 06 March 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

Ahh - so you're suggesting adding hit prediction which some how takes into account the other mech's potential movements. How? Missiles would still miss which is not how SSRM are supposed to work. What do you think of my suggestion compared to yours?

Yours adds too much to Streaks. I'm attempting to return them to what they were originally.

As far as the still miss issue and the prediction. I have a feeling that weapons already check their hit state when fired (this is the observed actions of weapons, and the simplest, since otherwise you'd have to track the objects in air constantly. I have a feeling that a line is drawn based off the flight characteristics of the weapon, and then it's determined what the weapon hits). With state rewind it checks accurately where the mechs actually were, and can return the fire/nofire command as needed. In reality with SSRMs vs SRMs it's a switched order and an extra command, which should be less than a ms worth of computing.

The "miss" case is an edge condition as well, since it would require about 10-50ms of reaction time, a mech already moving and the agility of the mech to get out of the path. If you've got those conditions you can already cause streaks to miss in the current implementation anyway.

I honestly just want to get rid of the lock-on bs that we've been dealing with. As an extra precaution the missiles could only check each time the button it pressed. Sure you could have a person write a repeat macro, but that is no different from UACs now, and would likely waste a lot of ammo. I want to see streaks as a high skill and precision weapon rather than a lazy, no skill weapon.

[focuspark]

LarkinOmega, on 06 March 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

Yours adds too much to Streaks. I'm attempting to return them to what they were originally.

As far as the still miss issue and the prediction. I have a feeling that weapons already check their hit state when fired (this is the observed actions of weapons, and the simplest, since otherwise you'd have to track the objects in air constantly. I have a feeling that a line is drawn based off the flight characteristics of the weapon, and then it's determined what the weapon hits). With state rewind it checks accurately where the mechs actually were, and can return the fire/nofire command as needed. In reality with SSRMs vs SRMs it's a switched order and an extra command, which should be less than a ms worth of computing.

The "miss" case is an edge condition as well, since it would require about 10-50ms of reaction time, a mech already moving and the agility of the mech to get out of the path. If you've got those conditions you can already cause streaks to miss in the current implementation anyway.

I honestly just want to get rid of the lock-on bs that we've been dealing with. As an extra precaution the missiles could only check each time the button it pressed. Sure you could have a person write a repeat macro, but that is no different from UACs now, and would likely waste a lot of ammo. I want to see streaks as a high skill and precision weapon rather than a lazy, no skill weapon.

And how does your solution prevent just spamming the fire button until a shot is allowed?

You're not removed the lock on mechanic, you've just changed how it works. My solution is identical to your except it cannot be spammed to work around it.

... and it balanced the guaranteed hit with a slight firing delay.

Both mechanics break the horrible lock on before you see the enemy mechanic, which encourages poptarting.

[LarkinOmega]

focuspark, on 06 March 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

And how does your solution prevent just spamming the fire button until a shot is allowed?

You're not removed the lock on mechanic, you've just changed how it works. My solution is identical to your except it cannot be spammed to work around it.

... and it balanced the guaranteed hit with a slight firing delay.

Both mechanics break the horrible lock on before you see the enemy mechanic, which encourages poptarting.

I already expressed that it doesn't prevent spamming. But if you think long enough about it, spamming is a sub-optimal strategy. Since you're attempting to deconstruct my suggestion to make your own seem superior, in your scenario, what's to prevent someone from just holding down the fire button?

Poptarting at 270 isn't really a problem, but the fact that the strategy exists is not an argument to prevent a balance pass on Streaks. Please stop bringing in extras, they serve no purpose.

[ohtochooseaname]

I like this suggestion as long as the SSRM's actually fly to where the reticle is pointing, so they can launch for specific torso sections instead of how they currently are, where it's a crap shoot where they'll hit.

[Hotthedd]

General Taskeen, on 06 March 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

Are you firing streaks too late and having them hit buildings or terrain? This is often the case, since in the open your SSRM missiles should hit 100% as currently programmed whether or not you keep the crosshair engaged.

I am almost always engaging fast lights when I use SSRMs, so yes, terrain blocks many shots.

[Sol Reapr]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak

See the second sentence in the Overview section.

Quote

"This system is designed to guarantee a hit against any target onto which the pilot can get a lock, ..."

This would indicate that Streaks are in fact working as intended by Battletech lore.

As for button spamming being a sub-optimal strategy and wasting ammo, that would in fact be untrue. Since the weapon can only fire when a hit is guaranteed (as per HSR), there is absolutely no wasted ammo. As it is now, if you have a lock but the target is behind a building, the SSRM will hit the building. Using your method the SSRM would not fire at all because HSR will take into account things like buildings to see if the target would be hit.

Your suggestion removes the lock-on mechanic, but because it replaces it with a "fire only if hit guaranteed" doesn't change the end result of a guaranteed hit. Your suggestion also makes it possible to hold down the fire button and rake your reticle across the screen and the Streak will fire once the target comes under focus. This could be possibly worse than the lock mechanic because you wouldn't even have to hover your reticle near the target as you do now to get the lock.

While focuspark's suggestion may add more "skill" to Streaks, it overly complicates the matter and deviates a little too much from both lore and table top game rules.

The lock mechanics, as they are now, are pretty close to how they would work in the Battletech universe (reference Sarna link above), which means that the developers are unlikely to change it much.

Edited by Sol Reapr, 06 March 2013 - 06:49 PM.

[focuspark]

Sol Reapr, on 06 March 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak

See the second sentence in the Overview section.



This would indicate that Streaks are in fact working as intended by Battletech lore.

As for button spamming being a sub-optimal strategy and wasting ammo, that would in fact be untrue. Since the weapon can only fire when a hit is guaranteed (as per HSR), there is absolutely no wasted ammo. As it is now, if you have a lock but the target is behind a building, the SSRM will hit the building. Using your method the SSRM would not fire at all because HSR will take into account things like buildings to see if the target would be hit.

Your suggestion removes the lock-on mechanic, but because it replaces it with a "fire only if hit guaranteed" doesn't change the end result of a guaranteed hit. Your suggestion also makes it possible to hold down the fire button and rake your reticle across the screen and the Streak will fire once the target comes under focus. This could be possibly worse than the lock mechanic because you wouldn't even have to hover your reticle near the target as you do now to get the lock.

While focuspark's suggestion may add more "skill" to Streaks, it overly complicates the matter and deviates a little too much from both lore and table top game rules.

The lock mechanics, as they are now, are pretty close to how they would work in the Battletech universe (reference Sarna link above), which means that the developers are unlikely to change it much.

You're spot on about spamming meaning only getting hits due to the suggested change. There's nothing overly difficult about what I'm suggesting. Basically what I'm saying is: require a re-lock after every shot and only allow lock-on within 270m - also, do not prevent lockon via ECM.

[LarkinOmega]

Sol Reapr, on 06 March 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak

See the second sentence in the Overview section.



This would indicate that Streaks are in fact working as intended by Battletech lore.

As for button spamming being a sub-optimal strategy and wasting ammo, that would in fact be untrue. Since the weapon can only fire when a hit is guaranteed (as per HSR), there is absolutely no wasted ammo. As it is now, if you have a lock but the target is behind a building, the SSRM will hit the building. Using your method the SSRM would not fire at all because HSR will take into account things like buildings to see if the target would be hit.

Your suggestion removes the lock-on mechanic, but because it replaces it with a "fire only if hit guaranteed" doesn't change the end result of a guaranteed hit. Your suggestion also makes it possible to hold down the fire button and rake your reticle across the screen and the Streak will fire once the target comes under focus. This could be possibly worse than the lock mechanic because you wouldn't even have to hover your reticle near the target as you do now to get the lock.

While focuspark's suggestion may add more "skill" to Streaks, it overly complicates the matter and deviates a little too much from both lore and table top game rules.

The lock mechanics, as they are now, are pretty close to how they would work in the Battletech universe (reference Sarna link above), which means that the developers are unlikely to change it much.

No where did I say that spamming the button would waste ammo. What I meant by sub-optimal is that it would induce cooldowns on less than ideal shots, would prevent max damage and would make it fairly easy for the enemy mech to dodge if the notice the pattern. All that is sub-optimal.

Could it potentially be worse? No. As it is, there is a fairly large leeway on missile locks, and it's extended with modules. This system would be unaffected by the lock retaining modules. Yes there's a chance of someone just wildly spamming and swinging, but honestly, I'd rather face that guy. Again, a sub-optimal strategy that would lead to a dead mech.

And I ask streak users, do you not already just hold down the button most of the time anyway? I know I do, since it's sub-optimal to let up unless they're not in LoS. It is harder to spam a button than hold it down, and it's easier to just hit it when you've aimed correctly. So far this "negative" does not exist.

As for the lock in that Sarna article, that refers to the target lock that we all enjoy. It returns information about the enemy mech and let's your allies know it's there. So again, a null issue.

Not firing due to buildings is an advantage over the current system, but if the streak user was firing into buildings, they're acting sub-optimally anyway, and the weapon system should not be balanced around that kind of user.

Ohto points out that this system would allow for more accurate SSRM fire, and that's the goal. To turn it from a lock, fire and forget to a skill based weapon. Being able to mostly focus (as per the ASRMs we have now) would be an innate bonus.

As a last note, this also paves the way for SSRM4s and 6s to be introduced with minimal fuss. As the current mechanics, they would be entirely too powerful.