64 replies to this topic

[TDR3D]

My issue lies more with the way streaks function more than how ECM Is implemented. My apologies if this has been discussed to death, but my jimmies have been severely rustled about this since returning to MWO after several months absence. I'm appalled to see that light fights have boiled down to who can fire off the most amount of streaks at each other. The guaranteed damage is so skilless, on top of the lack of collision, makes me disgusted to see so many awful awful pilots who can't aim.

"Oh but lag shield, bad netcode won't let me hit light mechs". *********, I have no trouble aiming at lights from a light using lasers or SRMs. I understand we shouldn't have to compensate for lag, but to say it's impossible is an outright lie.

I have no idea why streaks were changed from their previous incarnation. firing them from a light mech against an equally fast one meant you could juke them in circle fights to a certain degree while firing from bigger, slower mechs  meant the you'd almost always hit a light with them, since their's less inertia on the missile due to the slower speed from the source. I suppose what I'm saying is that streaks should be used as a deterrent for light mechs from the mediums and higher, not as the primary weapon for a light. This is complete and utter retardation, as it is completely skillless and incredibly unrewarding. ECM to me is just the scapegoat for allowing one team too streakrape the other team who has less ECM.

Don't get me wrong, I can still kill pubbie raven 3Ls with my Jenner-F in a 1vs1 fight ( which doesn't say much as i question the sentience of many solo droppers), but the damage taken from someone hovering their crosshairs over me for a few seconds, then putting a paperweight on their streak key while looking in my general direction is ridiculous. As ive said, streaks should be used as a deterrent by big mechs who have trouble keeping up with lights, not for lights to faceroll with their 100% chance to hit win button. it is of my opinion that PGI need to reinstate the old streak mechanics, or implement a new way to make what I've said above a reality.

[StalaggtIKE]

Netcode and ECM are non-related issues. They both need to be fixed. Was anyone complaining about RVN-3L before ECM was introduced? No. Let's say the netcode is fixed tomorrow. ECM would still be a problem. And no, it is not OP, it simply is not balanced. I can shoot down a light with an AC20 pretty easily, so I'm not suffering from lag shield, nor do I use missiles. But, as the poster stated earlier, ECM does entirely too much considering its size and weight. Fix ECM.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 22 January 2013 - 07:30 AM.

[XR17]

ok, added the "there is no problem". forgot the possibility

[Sudden Reversal]

Just make it actual Guardian ECM, not this weird overpowered hybrid.

Sheesh, how hard was that?

[TESTIFY]

Taemien, on 22 January 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

The problem isn't ECM. I can't ever remember a time where I was totally decimated just because an ECM was present. There's only two tactical advantages that ECM gives:

1. A means to flank using pathways you could not before due to the little red icons appearing over your head.

2. An immunity from streaks.

There is no immunity from LRMs as I've noticed that when using an ECM mech, I still get the incoming missile warning and have to take cover to avoid them. And the other effects of ECM are not noticable in PUGs because let's be serious, they don't and will not ever focus down a target. And premades are going to call out their targets over TS.

Now point 1 above isn't an issue for PUGs because they do NOT have that level of sophistication or collaboration. And when facing that sort of tactic, they are getting rolled anyway. And point 2 is well, let's face it, PUG'rs weren't using streaks that much anyway. The exception were the gimp build known as the Streak Cat with 6SSRM2s. For some reason they thought that build was effective. Sorry to say, it wasn't. Except against noob players who are running trial mechs.

Now some people think that correcting the lag shield will fix everything. More or less it will. However it WILL NOT fix the whining. In closed beta, we had no lag shields on lights and knock downs. Bad light pilots were simply fodder, just as expected. But the funny thing is, there were MASS complaints and whine threads about how Overpowered the Jenner was.

You could literally point your cursor at a Jenner and hit it where your reticle was and hit it with lasers. Dropping it in several shots. You could blow on it with anything over 50 tons and knock it down. Yet it was STILL "Overpowered" by the whining vocal majority (remember the majority of forum users are here to complain, happy players are playing, not usually posting).

These players will never be happy. Its not possible. Even if they never have to face a premade, collisions are in, and netcode isn't an issue, they will still find something to complain about. The simple fact of the matter is they are terrible at the game, and wish for the developers to fix the issue for them. The issue being they are just terrible and do not wish to slug through their baptism by fire and become vets like the rest of 'us' (of course us being the happy players that aren't affected by these issues and can overcome change and adversity, and even bugs like the netcode).

But I am calling it now. If the netcode is fixed and if heaven forbid the ECM is nerfed, they will still complain. Heck, we just had a thread pop up a few days ago saying LRMs are OP. I haven't been killed by an LRM since closed beta.

Nice work here

[SI The Joker]

SSRMs are just too effective, and ultra effective when boated. There's a spider thread where I suggested this:

- SSRMs do .75 less damage per missle
- Rack weighs more -- 2.5 or 3 tons

I thought I read that PGI had some tweaks coming for ECM, so I'm going to hold off until more is said... but the reality is that currently, SSRMs are just too effective.

Edited by SI The Joker, 22 January 2013 - 07:35 AM.

[Kousagi]

StalaggtIKE, on 22 January 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

Netcode and ECM are non-related issues. They both need to be fixed. Was anyone complaining about RVN-3L before ECM was introduced? No. Let's say the netcode is fixed tomorrow. ECM would still be a problem. And no, it is not OP, it simply is not balanced. I can shoot down a light with an AC20 pretty easily, so I'm not suffering from lag shield, nor do I use missiles. But, as the poster stated earlier, ECM does entirely too much considering its size and weight. Fix ECM.

To say that no one complained about the 3L before ECM is a slightly flawed argument. People Did complain about the jenner, which has a better hardpoint setup with streaks. So why take the 3L over the Jenner? There was no reason to. Also, that was the time of the streak cat, Number 1 light mech killer. I know my streak cat could at times 1 shot lights that I caught in the rear with a full alpha. So light mechs were of little problem cause Auto hit damage destroyed them very very easy. Once ECM was put in and it removed the OP Streaks from being able to deal with light mechs, the lagshield problem reared it ugly head more.

ECM itself is not the problem, Lagshield and streaks are. Once both are fixed no one will complain about light mechs or ECM. I take that back, the not so brights will still complain, cause they always complain about everthing. ECM is not that strong, It does nothing teamwork can't overcome except for its ability to allow/deny OP streaks, and still super strong LRM's.

[Darwins Dog]

I voted ECM and streaks. I used to be a good light hunter in my COM-3A. Now there are only 2 mechs out there that get to use streak missiles, and that puts them way ahead of the other lights and cicadas. If ECM countered your own streak missile lock, as well as your opponents, there would be a lot more variety in the light mech department.

[Tam Wolfcry]

ECM prevents LRM lock. If someone has you locked while you are currently being shielded by ECM, then one of a few things have happened:
1) you have been hit by TAG
2) an enemy mech is within the ECM zone and has you locked
3) your ECM is currently being disrupted.

Notice that 2 & 3 require an enemy mech to be in your face.

Matching needs to take into consideration the number of ECM mechs on each side. Right now it doesn't. This ruins PUG match ups as you can easily have one side without any ECM and the battle is a foregone conclusion.

Make no mistake, ECM is a game changer. If you don't have the counters for it, or are hosting it yourself, you will lose.

I play mostly PUGs due to time constraints. Out of my three mechs that I run, the one that has the most success is my ECM commando. It survives the longest due to severely decreased missile locks. It can sneak around the map very well. I've armed it with as many big SRMS as I can. It is very easy to get behind large mechs and shred their rear armor. I'll get at least two salvos off before having to run for it. Rinse and repeat.

My spider can not carry an ECM. It gets decimated unless I follow along behind an ECM mech. It cannot scout as it is detected easily and locked on by LRMs.

My founder's atlas is in the same boat. I used to run an LRM boat version, but now that it can barely ever get a lock on a target, there is no need. I have to hope I'm on a team with a ECM atlas, or pray a scout mech with ECM is willing to babysit. Now if those conditions are met, my atlas brawls pretty well. If not, then it will get tore up by LRMs and other long range fire.

ECM shielding is very powerful. It determines the outcome of a match. So they either need to balance it, or they need to fix matching. I would be more than happy to see a category for stock mech battles. Especially for new players. Let people enjoy the game vs stock mechs. Much more balanced. Let them learn without having to face a mech with millions of C-bills sunk into it that grants it huge advantages.

My 2D has millions in upgrades. It will decimate any stock CMD in the game. So how fair is it to match someone up who is running one vs mine? Not very. Tonnage means squat. $ mean more. Match up based on mech worth over mech ton..then the game might be more balanced.

That is really all they need to do to fix this game. Fix matching. Provide more options for people.
Solo:
Stock games - no upgrades allowed. Match based on tonnage.
Balance - upgrades allowed, match based on tonnage and C-bill worth of mechs.
Open - Anything goes, uses current system.
Teams: as above but let them match either 4v4 or 8v8

[StalaggtIKE]

Kousagi, on 22 January 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

To say that no one complained about the 3L before ECM is a slightly flawed argument. People Did complain about the jenner, which has a better hardpoint setup with streaks. So why take the 3L over the Jenner? There was no reason to. Also, that was the time of the streak cat, Number 1 light mech killer. I know my streak cat could at times 1 shot lights that I caught in the rear with a full alpha. So light mechs were of little problem cause Auto hit damage destroyed them very very easy. Once ECM was put in and it removed the OP Streaks from being able to deal with light mechs, the lagshield problem reared it ugly head more.

ECM itself is not the problem, Lagshield and streaks are. Once both are fixed no one will complain about light mechs or ECM. I take that back, the not so brights will still complain, cause they always complain about everthing. ECM is not that strong, It does nothing teamwork can't overcome except for its ability to allow/deny OP streaks, and still super strong LRM's.

You have issues with lagshield, I do not. Does that means lagshield is not an issue? I think not. I've said this in countless threads before; I have no issue with the complete neutering of LRM/SSRM, because I don't use them. I am a ballistics man. However, I can tell when something is unbalanced. Just because you can defeat something doesn't mean it's fine. For instance, let's say there was a new laser added to the game that did 50 dmg with the same heat and recycle time of a small laser. With teamwork we could kill that person, however does that still means it's balanced? Goodness no! ECM is imbalanced because it has too many pros for little, to no, cons. There is nothing else in the game with similar weight and size that does as much as ECM does. It needs to be toned down. The fact is, a large amount of our new players are going to be solo drops. New players are what's keeps this game going. If we chase them off with a tiny passive device, only accessible to premades, they're going to leave. At the very least stealth should be removed from ECM, so players can at least access a call letter, paperdoll and weapon intel, so that solo drops can construct some semblance of tactical play together. ECM, SSRM, LRM and netcode are all in need of some work.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 22 January 2013 - 08:48 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

ECM is a problem. SSRMs are a problem. TOgether they are a bigger problem. I voted just ECM to make it clear that it's not enough to nerf Streaks for ECM users.

[Kousagi]

StalaggtIKE, on 22 January 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

~ wall-o-Text ~

Everyone has problems with lagshield, its just a matter of how bad it is on your side. If you can guess the lead its fine, but that lead is not always the same, so it can become a pain to kill light mechs. Times when they should have been roasted and dead, they just take minor damage and laugh.

ECM is nothing like having a small laser with 50 damage, Two completely different things. Thing is ECM really does not do that much for its weight. Though If ya want to compare it, C3i is free of charge for us, so....and BAP has the same amount of benefits, just everyone found them moot cause they didn't do anything. Only mech to use the BAP to any effect was the Streak cat.

Though of the things that ECM does, Who cares if ya can't put a red box around a mech? Detection is a very moot thing, since with thermal view I can spot the other team moving out from their spawn from my spawn. I don't need a red box around them to even shoot them or tell what mechs they are. Any brain dead monkey can work out, that if it does not have a blue box on it, its a bad guy, shoot it. I mean no other FPS puts a red box around around bad guys, so why is it some magical thing thats required in this one? Ya just shoot for their cockpit, if ya miss, you will hit the torso sections which 95% of the time is what everyone else is aiming at too, so the depending on target data is kinda meh.

The only thing that kills off for new players is the ECM cutting C3 from the radar network. It can be hard to be blind in that way, but its something they need to learn. Which is not that powerful either, well at least not to anyone that does not panic. If the newbies panic then sure, they will be in a world of hurt since they run right in to the firing line. Learning experience of what not to do next time.

Then last bit of ECM being the allow/deny of Streaks/LRM's. This is the only point anyone can really argue over being OP. Which in itself is not OP, but it allows the use of OP weapons to the side that has more ECM. Which indirectly makes it powerful.

Ya know that whole calling letter thing, Never NEVER seen it happen in a pug match, ever. Never done it in a pre-made either. Heck, I played in closed beta, and never knew there was a letter there till a month or so in to open beta. Never needed it, so never bothered to find it.

I think ECM brought tactical play back to MWO, as it was very much lacking before. Though Everyone crys imbalanced but they can't give a solid reason why it is. Only thing that could be seen as Imbalanced, is once again the allow/deny of OP weapons.

[Tam Wolfcry]

I don't see a problem with SSRMs. Currently they come in only a 2 missile variety. The most any mech can carry I believe is 6. The issue is not SSRMs being too powerful. I've seen plenty of mechs pre-ECM with SSRMS that were not OP. Not being able to lock onto a mech with SSRMs is a problem, especially when combined with a high speed and small profile. Also, creating modules that make SSRMS lock on for near forever is a problem.

This game is heavily, play to win. The more you play, the more GXP you get, the more money you get, the more special rules you can buy.

Which is fine really, except when your match up system is lame. People want fun, fair play. Give them the option to have games like that, and you'll have a successful game as people commit the time because its fun, and then branch out into the varied aspects of the gameplay. Throw everyone into the same bowl, and create lopsided matches and disgruntled players.

[TDR3D]

Tam Wolfcry, on 22 January 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

I don't see a problem with SSRMs. Currently they come in only a 2 missile variety. The most any mech can carry I believe is 6. The issue is not SSRMs being too powerful.

SSRMs do 2.5 dmg per missile. Ravens can fit 2 launchers for a total of 10 damage (15 damage with commando), spread across left, right, and centre torso. Guaranteed. Every few seconds. this destroys lights with very little effort of the user.

Tam Wolfcry, on 22 January 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

 I've seen plenty of mechs pre-ECM with SSRMS that were not OP.

You are talking about a time when circle-strafing lights were able to out-turn streaks to some degree.

Streaks always hitting regardless of physics is a bad idea because streaks on a light mech will guarantee you victory over a mech who doesn't, provided both pilots are of equal skill. This even more of a problem because you simply cannot run away from the streak-equipped light, as they will follow you until you're dead or down to red internals when you reach the rest of your team. Streaks are fine on non-lights. Streaks are not fine on scouts.

[DocBach]

If you didn't vote all of the above, I'm pretty sure you've been playing a different game then me.

ECM by itself negates weapons systems and every other piece of equipment in the game, including your ability to determine friend from foe. Every friend and family member I've recently tried to introduce to this game have quit because of it. I'm talking like three games before they said "f*ck this sh*t" and never logged on again. To be a new player and then figure out half the weapons of the trial 'Mech you are forced to use won't work against the enemy, and not even being able to tell who is the enemy makes the learning curve even harder.

The streaks are broken because they still haven't made it so they don't want to home in to the center torso. If they opened their grouping a bit it would make them absolutely fine.

Netcode is rubbish and combined with ECM you are relegated to either packing more ECM than the bad guy to hit the light with guided weapons or hope you can nick them to death with lucky leads from your laser.

[Topsytervy]

one of the problems i have seen with missiles is that after you lock on and fire you have to maintain lock. my suggestion is do away with this practice. missiles should be lock, fire, forget. move on to next target or macross missle massacre em. this is how all missiles should work. ecm should increase target lock time and break in flight missile target lock. the missiles will no longer home in on the target but will still impact on the last area locked. so if you have a ecm it will take longer for your enemies to establish a lock, be attacked with missiles, your ecm will jam the in-flight missiles. the now jammed missiles do not become inert, instead of homing they become area sateration. the missiles will go to last point in which they had a lock. so even if you do jam a missile attack you can still be hit or take damage from the missiles if you stay in the same area.

[Topsytervy]

also all missile should also be dead fired, in other words fired as if they are rockets. this done by firing the missiles with line of sight to target with out a target lock. yes at longer ranges your target if smart will simply move out of the way, but with most SRMs you still have a very good chance to hit. and since the missiles are dead fired ecm can not jam them because no lock has been established.

[Solomon Ward]

I can live with ECM but the world would be a better place without SSRM.

[Strig]

I have posted elsewhere that I believe ECM (or the effects it currently provides) should be broken up into multiple pieces of equipment so that there is an element of decision in whether or not to take this piece over that piece (right now if a mech CAN have ECM it WILL have ECM because you would be utterly stupid not to).

The main issue I have with which mechs get this overpowered piece of gear is that ECM is an complete counter to missile lock given to chasis that have the best missile capabilities of their type.

The mechs that should have ECM are the ones that don't sport the best missile hardpoints (I know that this might go against canon, but so what).

It is powerful, but fine on the Spider and the Cicada. It is too strong on the Atlas D-DC, the Comando 2D and the Raven 3L.

Give it instead to:
Comando 1B (1 missile hp)
Raven 4x (1 missile hp and ballistic slots on a light .. booo)
Atlas K ... (1 missile hp and 1 less weapon hp than all the other Atlas models ... this totally gimped Atlas has no redeeming qualities besides an extra AMS slot and coming with an XL which any Atlas can be upgraded to hold ... why have an Extra AMS when you can get the D-DC and never even get missile locked?)

[Topsytervy]

also combining tactics such as dead firing missiles with leading your target is another way of getting around ecm. leading is the practice of shooting ahead of your target. you match the flight time of the projectile with speed of the target so the two meet at the same point. should also work with auto cannon and guass rifles.