81 replies to this topic

[Johnny Reb]

Um..k..However, I am not in a premade unless I join in a group of random ppl to form a 4 man group. Anyone, http://www.reddit.co...o_join_creddit/ ,can do it but half the time I drop solo! ***!

[Wizard Steve]

While I am most certainly a paying customer (400 days of premium time left, four - soon five - hero mechs and 27 mech bays), I play the game solo for 90+% of my games. I don't consider myself cannon fodder.

While I do consider trial mechs cannon fodder, I've done the current trial on a second account without any premium time or founder/hero mechs and it's possible to have a competitive mech well before the 25 cadet games are complete.

I've played plenty of games where premades have been taken apart by PUGs (and vice versa of course) so no, I don't consider (post trial-mech) solo players cannon fodder.

[Roland]

SlXSlXSlX, on 22 January 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Please do not present your opinion as fact unless you have something factual to back it up. Otherwise, it simply means nothing.

It's a fact, deal with it.
I've seen it myself... I PUG a lot, and the team I'm on often steamrolls the other side... and I've often had them say, "OMG ANOTHER PREMADE."

No. They lost to randoms... they just lost to randoms that were better than they were, because they were freaking terrible.

When you lost all your games, it's time to look at the common denominator between all those losses.. and it's in the mirror.

[Roland]

SlXSlXSlX, on 22 January 2013 - 10:27 PM, said:

You want to throw around the "no you prove it" statements... or have a decent conversation. No one is proving anything when all stat data is obscured. Even as I stated it, premades are mostly paying customers, I asked for counter points didnt I? You could argue the point, intelligently.

This wonderful experience motivated my posting tonight.




This was me running solo, which I am sure surprises none. That im not bottom score with 12 dmg however, may have you pondering how best to discredit my post beyond attacking the poster.

What exactly does this show?

To me, it appears that you played in a game as a pug, and that game ended up being pretty well balanced. It does not appear that one side was loaded with a premade team and the other wasn't.

So what exactly is the problem?

[stemnin]

750 games, solo only (may have grouped once or twice with my cousin), and last night was the only night I was thinking 12v12 is gonna be the death of me.

I should've known when something was up and we had 7 random assaults and 1 light...

[Kell Draygo]

That's some terribly, stinky cheese you ran into. Those people should be banned for exploiting the lack of matchmaking so bad, they do nothing to help this game.

[Mr 144]

SixSixSix, How do you rationalize your theories around the fact that every single day since open beta started, the percentage of Founders has decereased? They no longer sell this package, so there is a fixed potential number of them. Some are lost as time goes on, yet it is not possible to replace them. This simple FACT kind of kills your entire premise

Mr 144

[Joseph Mallan]

SlXSlXSlX, on 22 January 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

TL DR: Are solo-players playing MWO effectively fodder for the individuals who are currently considered "paying customers".... assuming said paying customers comprise the majority of premade teams?

Ummmmmm, We in Murphy's Law have non paying members. They will be dropping with us on our missions. Now if the Mission calls for 12 players and we have 9... 3 PUGs will join us. Those PUGs may be paying or non paying players. But they will be Pick Up Gamers

[Taiji]

SlXSlXSlX, on 22 January 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

Been awhile MWO. How are things?

On balance, it's better since the passing of the last while.

SlXSlXSlX, on 22 January 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

Saw a thread today on your forum which eluded to the idea that 12v12 will be structured similiarly to the current 8v8 system, in that solo players will be used to supplement empty slots in matches between premades.. the example was 12 man premade vs a 4 man, with 8 random players. Can this possibly be true? Solo players... premades.... projected to still be toe to tow how ever many months away the 12 v 12s are? Q n A 30 seems to elude to that idea.

Can it be true? Of course.

SlXSlXSlX, on 22 January 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

Is the theory that you need to placate the already paying masses, lest you lose them? It seems like this game will always be premades farming pubs, if this is the intended long term solution to having less than 12, and matching versus 12 man premades.

I guess not.

SlXSlXSlX, on 22 January 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

Assumption: Individuals in premade teams, are more likely to be paying customers. (maybe that is inaccurate??)

Yes, maybe it is inaccurate. Afterall it looks like whoever did the assuming neglected the requisite amount of thinking to be done prior. Since maybe they are less likely to pay for premium precisely because they are winning many more matches.

What do you think? You think winning so much, and as a result having so much CBills, is an incentive to spend money?

SlXSlXSlX, on 22 January 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

Sidenote: Saw a poll where 97% of forum posters thought the current premade system is just fine. That poll is a month or older now so, perhaps the mass opinion has changed. What I take away from that is, you will never win a premade related argument on these forums. This forum is by and large full of supporters of the current state of game. I am not saying "Don't waste your breath". More so I am saying, you are wasting your breath arguing against pub farming on this forum.

This notion of 'winning an argument' is funny.

SlXSlXSlX, on 22 January 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

TL DR: Are solo-players playing MWO effectively fodder for the individuals who are currently considered "paying customers".... assuming said paying customers comprise the majority of premade teams?

No. And BTW all customers are paying by definition - i.e. You're not a customer at all if you paid nothing.

Edited by Taiji, 23 January 2013 - 07:13 AM.

[Rotaugen]

I jump in groups sometimes and pug a lot too. I find that a lot of players in groups (even those in set units) only use c-bills, not MC. So no, your hypothesis is incorrect. I can see the logic of it, but it isn't what is happening. Yes, grouping helps. Two sides with equal experience and skill, one grouped, the other not. Which will more likely win?

[Bagheera]

SlXSlXSlX, on 22 January 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

Founders arging that they personally KNOW premades are not mostly comprised of paying customers... has a humor all to itself.

**This statement in no way generalizes all founders, but rather refers specifically to those who raise points in this thread, which lack emperical support.**

In the off chance you are referring to me.

One cannot prove a negative. Your assertion was that the majority of "pre-made" teams are "paying customers." As it is your assertion to the positive, the burden of proof is in your court.

Further: I fail to see how this metric is useful. "Paying customer" can range from the Legendary Founder who has pumped a couple hundred bucks into the game after their founder's purchase - to the guy that did a 1 time MC purchase to speed the acquisition of a single mech. There's just too broad a range of people for lumping them all together to be meaningful.

Edited by Bagheera, 23 January 2013 - 07:44 AM.

[SlXSlXSlX]

Let me attempt to clarify....

All presumption and assumption, my stat team went on strike... don't hire greek statisticians, you can't "count" on them.

Will solos always be fodder for premades... revised.

What I am trying to say here is, the majority of those paying and or playing, could arguably be said to "like" the game. Whether their like is of it, as of now, or their like is of it, as of now if a few changes were made. Point there is, whichever side of the ecm argument your on, or whichever gripe echoes your own sentiments, many still enjoy/endorse the overall structure of the game. In that I mean, random matches, grouped teams, filled in with "solo-sam's". Many who currently play, whether they be founders, founders on alts, new players, or myself, new players with alts, have or do 'pay". Whether a bobble was bought, a founder pack, or alike, it adds up to some money exchanging hands.

I appreciate that some founders solo exclusively, but on the opposite end of the spectrum some, only play in premades.

So, the idea is that.... IF you created a solo queue, the majority of those who "want" to use it, are those who are unhappy with the current overall structure. To offer such an option would reduce the available targets for a mm to choose from for filling the gaps in larger matches. The premades would arguably have to spend more time in queue, and their fear is eventually no one would play 4 mans anymore, and everyone would play the solo queue. (I assume <----- please correct if inaccurate. This is what you fear isn't it?)

Developers may or may not see the community growth they want or hope for, we players, are blindly guessing. At some point the focus may have, or may be, shifting from attracting new players, to retaining those current participants, the ones that have contributed "something".

I interpret Q n A 30 to state that, said focus is squarely on retention. If and when they go to 12 mans, after the netcode fix which could take a very long time, that they still see the role of solo's as fillers tells me the priority is on the premade players. I would guess the 12 man premade will win over the 4 man premade with 8 randoms, almost every time.

Adding all of this together, it says to me, solo's will be as much fillers in 6 months, down the road, in the forseeable future... as they are today.

So I ask the community, whom is 97% in agreement premade teaming is a touchstone of the game, will those solo's always be your fodder? Are solo's here to grow the community, pad your stats, fill your games, or a combination of the above? I guess I could reluctantly agree the fodder role is acceptable for now, if it was just "for now". However, if I am reading it all right, it seems this "role" is their intended long term purpose, fodder.

Sidepoints:

1. I value paragraph indentation.
2. Somo founder solo pros argue they always win, and they are not fodder, so my point is completely invalid. I assert the pro solo-player, is the exception not the rule. This is my personal in game experience.
3. Validity of my pic, that match was not a fun fair kinda time, it was alot more like a feeling of omg why arnt I getting any help, some well placed ac20 shots, and then the sad realization it was all for not. I only posted it to drive counter a single counter-point so many put forward on these forums... which is if you are QQing on the forums, you score less than 100 dmg per game, suck, and need to l2p.

Food for thought: winning 8-0, is as much fun as losing 0-8.

[Rizzelbizzeg]

Mr Mantis, on 22 January 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

Inaccurate generalization skewed into speculatory nonsense.
...

^^ this

Edited by Rizzelbizzeg, 23 January 2013 - 11:26 AM.

[SlXSlXSlX]

Mr 144, on 23 January 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

SixSixSix, How do you rationalize your theories around the fact that every single day since open beta started, the percentage of Founders has decereased? They no longer sell this package, so there is a fixed potential number of them. Some are lost as time goes on, yet it is not possible to replace them. This simple FACT kind of kills your entire premise

Mr 144

Sorry I initially missed this, hard to keep up at work. I rationalize it as follows, we do not need to be a founder, to buy MC.

P.S. my name is SLXSLXSLX, but 6 has a nice ring to it too.

[Mr 144]

SlXSlXSlX, on 23 January 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Sorry I initially missed this, hard to keep up at work. I rationalize it as follows, we do not need to be a founder, to buy MC.

P.S. my name is SLXSLXSLX, but 6 has a nice ring to it too.

Ahhh, I expected this backpedal. Most of the angst in your threads (before re-editing) erroneously identifies premades as equating to founders. Now that you've opened the door to ANYONE who buys MC in the game, where are you drawing the line? A pain Job? A few Mech Bays? A Bobble Head?...or only hero mechs (made available to compete with founder's mechs)? Secondly, how are you then even identifying these players as pre-made in your completely 'guessed' analysis? Your argument is severley flawed just on logic, causation, and correlation points alone without even needing to address your actual theories and opinions.

When people QQ'd about the economy...I documented 100 matches in the most expensive build I could run at the time and ran with full R&R on, with no premium time, solo PuG, and with almost perfect 'average' stats just to disprove the QQers. Just an example of ACTUAL observations that could be used to prove your points.

What I'm instead seeing from you, is baseless opinions disguised as statistics. Worse, when anyone questions the inherent lack of data gathering, they are instantly white knights. Well, I'm no White Knight Gold, and all I see is BS. If you were truly passionate about making any point with these rediculous threads you would gather data yourself, rather than just make unsubstantiated claims.

You may very well be right on some of your points, but with zero investment in any form of data gathering, it all just comes off as a confrontational troll-post whine.

Mr 144

[Major Scumbag]

You dont have to pay money to get on TS or Vent. You can still pay and still suck. On TS every once in awhile I get people coming in TS group and asking if they can join. Even though they on a trial mech. NP come on in. You have learned the first part of winning. Join a team on a voice chat

[Taizan]

SlXSlXSlX, on 22 January 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

TL DR: Are solo-players playing MWO effectively fodder for the individuals who are currently considered "paying customers".... assuming said paying customers comprise the majority of premade teams?

I'll completely ignore your odd connection between paying and premade players.

Of course solo players are cannon fodder for a premade team. That is the point of a team based game. Be part of the team or get shot to chunks of steaming metal.

You can also be part of the team as a "solo pilot" by taking cues from what your teammates are doing, defining your role and aiding to the general effort of your team. It is not necessary to join a voice comm for that, you don't even have to write a word - just be there for your team and don't go solo.

Nevertheless, the pure "solo pilot" who just wants to play on his own with 7 random people will always be something like the lowest common denominator in this game and will probably always have a very hard time.

[Ghogiel]

stemnin, on 23 January 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

750 games, solo only (may have grouped once or twice with my cousin), and last night was the only night I was thinking 12v12 is gonna be the death of me.

I should've known when something was up and we had 7 random assaults and 1 light...

Pug life.
Soloing 6 atlas erryday.

[Joseph Mallan]

SlXSlXSlX, on 23 January 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

P.S. my name is SLXSLXSLX, but 6 has a nice ring to it too.

And you never once corrected my Dark lord statements? Oh the Huge Matinee!

[Wolf Ender]

stemnin, on 23 January 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

750 games, solo only (may have grouped once or twice with my cousin), and last night was the only night I was thinking 12v12 is gonna be the death of me.

I should've known when something was up and we had 7 random assaults and 1 light...

LOL NICE

of course...doesn't prove anything.

i've been in random pub games in my 'phract, with 6 other phracts on the team. statistically it will happen after enough games get played, you're going to have anomalies occur.