115 replies to this topic

[Judochop]

Not to mention you're trading for an AC-2 by getting rid of a damn Gauss Rifle that actually does significant damage within a similar range profile as that AC-2. Over 7 times higher damage for a 2 hex range trade off. Both generate only 1 heat. Even if that's an Ultra AC-2, you're only doing 22% of the Gauss Rifle's damage, IF both shells hit and you don't jam up.

I mean sure, the AC-2 weighs significantly less, but if you have the room, then there's no reason not to take the Gauss Rifle over the Autocannon.

[Bleakheart]

Christopher Dayson, on 26 May 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

I look forwards to closing the distance with my superior jump jets and 6/9/6 movement to instantly get in range of my LRM's, PPC's, AC 5's, Gauss Rifles, and taking your 2 points of damage while utterly thrashing you with 5, 10, or 15 damage per shot compared to your 2 damage per shot giving me 2 hit kills when I head shot you in return.

All in good fun of course.

Now, when did I say I stripped the other guns off this thing? The AC2 is a good opener/attention getter, and has the range to keep tagging your backside if you're running away. All I'm saying is, in the right hands, at the correct time, the AC2 can reach out and bite you when other items just can't. It's just another tool in the box, and there are times it'll come in handy.

pop

TINK

pop

TINK

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TINK
"OHDAMMIT WILL YOU KNOCK IT OFF!!!"

[Sassori]

It's 2 damage with barely 90 meters at best range over other long range options. It's just not worth the weight, ever. No matter how you try to justify the machine gun damage it's just not worth it. The only reason a machine gun is ever worth it is because of infantry and being /light/. The AC2 is not light, and it's not good damage. It's only ever worth it when you're facing off against aerospace fighters and 2 damage can possibly cause internal damage due to aerospace armor breaching so easily.

That's it. That's it's role. Against mech's it's worthless. Replacing a Gauss Rifle with an AC2 is pointless.

Edited by Christopher Dayson, 26 May 2012 - 10:17 AM.

[Evedro Solais]

Feh, this is nothing. I have an variant which absolutely destroys in close quarters. Start with an Atlas AS7-K and strip the LRM 20 for 4 SRM6s (Though by the MechLab Demo, it may be limited to 3 SRM6s if they go by not all slots for a given hard point may be filled on a stock variant and max 3 per hardpoint. In which case, hello Artemis System) and Swap the Gauss Cannon for an LB 10-X. I also drop the XL Engine for a standard one. Thankfully the weight I save from the Gauss>LB X-10 switch can cover it.

Spoiler

18.5 Tons of Armor. I could squeeze another ton out if I removed the case in the left torso. Not sure why I left it in, no ammo is there.

Of course is the risk/reward of Inferno is too much, normal missiles work just as well.

Christopher Dayson, on 26 May 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

It's 2 damage with barely 90 meters at best range over other long range options. It's just not worth the weight, ever. No matter how you try to justify the machine gun damage it's just not worth it. The only reason a machine gun is ever worth it is because of infantry and being /light/. The AC2 is not light, and it's not good damage. It's only ever worth it when you're facing off against aerospace fighters and 2 damage can possibly cause internal damage due to aerospace armor breaching so easily.

That's it. That's it's role. Against mech's it's worthless. Replacing a Gauss Rifle with an AC2 is pointless.

You forget the range factor not to mention the fact that you get a ton of ammo, well... per ton of ammo. In close quarters its near useless but with a steady aim you can drill a single location (Such as the cockpit or a mounted weapon) enough to crit it from pretty far away. Though I would have gone for the Ultra AC/5 myself

Edited by Evedro Solais, 26 May 2012 - 10:58 AM.

[William Petersen]

Evedro Solais, on 26 May 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

Christopher Dayson, on 26 May 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

It's 2 damage with barely 90 meters at best range over other long range options. It's just not worth the weight, ever. No matter how you try to justify the machine gun damage it's just not worth it. The only reason a machine gun is ever worth it is because of infantry and being /light/. The AC2 is not light, and it's not good damage. It's only ever worth it when you're facing off against aerospace fighters and 2 damage can possibly cause internal damage due to aerospace armor breaching so easily.

That's it. That's it's role. Against mech's it's worthless. Replacing a Gauss Rifle with an AC2 is pointless.

You forget the range factor not to mention the fact that you get a ton of ammo, well... per ton of ammo. In close quarters its near useless but with a steady aim you can drill a single location (Such as the cockpit or a mounted weapon) enough to crit it from pretty far away. Though I would have gone for the Ultra AC/5 myself

"With barely 90 meters at best range over other long range options." What part of that is forgetting the range factor?

EDIT: And yeah, you do get a ton of ammo. For me to explode before you spend it all. If you take an LRM 20, you empty a ton in six shots and deal considerably more damage per firing (though admittedly, you don't really get to aim the damage allocation, though honestly I'm *very* skeptical of the ability to fire accurately at 24 hex range anyway...I sincerely hope that zoom functionality is severely limited if included at all; its exclusion is probably too much to hope for), so that once they do close they don't have an ammo bin to light up like the 4th of July.

Edited by William Petersen, 26 May 2012 - 10:36 AM.

[Bleakheart]

This is basically a classic .22 cal vs. 12 guage debate. The .22 brings piles of ammo and can get you at range. The 12 guage is devastating at close range, but has 5 - 8 shots. It's all in the hands and play style of the gunner....

[Sassori]

Bleakheart, on 26 May 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

This is basically a classic .22 cal vs. 12 guage debate. The .22 brings piles of ammo and can get you at range. The 12 guage is devastating at close range, but has 5 - 8 shots. It's all in the hands and play style of the gunner....

No it's not.

A Gauss Rifle has nearly identical range to an AC2 with 7.5 times the firepower. The only thing the AC2 has is more shots per ton over a Gauss Rifle and a /miniscule/ range advantage that is easily covered by any mech that can manage a 60 kph run vs an Atlas at 3/5. There's essentially no range advantage and a massive damage disadvantage... this isn't even a logical debate anymore. If you can fit the Gauss Rifle it's superior to the AC2. Every. Single. Time.

[William Petersen]

Bleakheart, on 26 May 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

This is basically a classic .22 cal vs. 12 guage debate.

I'd say it's more like "BB Gun versus firearm." =P

[Orion Pirate]

I imagine the AC/2 as having an Ammo advantage and a Reload time advantage over other longer range weapons. In the game, which operates in real time, you might get off several shots of an AC/2 between the two shots of a Gauss. And seeing as you will have more AC/2 ammo to work with over other ballistic weapons....

Anyways, it is all speculation. Until the game is played, most of the AC/2 is a waste/is boss discussions are mostly moot.

[Judochop]

I'd rather have a standard engine in close quarters. If you lose a side torso and you're carrying an XL engine, it's good night. The AS7-K is well suited to sitting at moderately long ranges where its gauss rifle can shred while the mech itself maintains higher to-hit mods againt it.

Edited by Judochop, 26 May 2012 - 10:44 AM.

[Bleakheart]

Gauss rifle recycle time and ammo load vs. AC2 recycle time and ammo load could be a wash for all we know atm. Plus, I love how even TALKING about this weapon gets under people's skin, so I can't wait to use it!

[Jacob Davion]

Stone Profit, on 26 May 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Jumping mechs make for notoriously easy targets, at least for myself in previous games.

Yeah, right. And if you're 720 meters away, the only thing you can hit it with is an AC/2.

Edited by Jacob Davion, 26 May 2012 - 10:59 AM.

[Sassori]

The only definitive rules for the weapons we have is the Table Top really. That's what I'm going by. Recycle mechanics of any sort should not increase or decrease a weapons effectiveness or damage over time otherwise it upsets balance completely. The role an AC2 fills is not one that is useful for this specific theater but it has it's uses in TT against Aerospace fighters.

At 6 tons and 2 damage with 45 shots per ton, you can fit 2 of them into a single gauss rifle. If the tech level is there, then a Light Gauss is even /better/ as it has /more/ range than an AC2, with 4 times the damage.

So with what information we have available, the AC 2 is practically worthless.

Bleakheart, on 26 May 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

Gauss rifle recycle time and ammo load vs. AC2 recycle time and ammo load could be a wash for all we know atm. Plus, I love how even TALKING about this weapon gets under people's skin, so I can't wait to use it!

P.S. You're not getting under my skin, I'm just trying to be helpful. If after all of this you still want to waste 7 tons on 2 damage... well that's on you. I'll be satisfied with the original gauss.

[Evedro Solais]

Judochop, on 26 May 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

Spoiler

I'd rather have a standard engine in close quarters. If you lose a side torso and you're carrying an XL engine, it's good night. The AS7-K is well suited to sitting at moderately long ranges where its gauss rifle can shred while the mech itself maintains higher to-hit mods againt it.

Im a little confused about whether you're talking about my variant or the AS7-K in general. Also you forgot to quote me

[Tezz LaCoil]

Steiner put rockets on their atlas again. Speed exceeds 430 kph.

[William Petersen]

Bleakheart, on 26 May 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

Gauss rifle recycle time and ammo load vs. AC2 recycle time and ammo load could be a wash for all we know atm. Plus, I love how even TALKING about this weapon gets under people's skin, so I can't wait to use it!

Talking about it 'gets under [our] skin' because it's ignorant. By all means, do use it and I'll laugh all the way to your grave as I walk up and pound-in your face with three times your firepower. In my Jenner. =P

[Jacob Davion]

Christopher Dayson, on 26 May 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

No it's not.

A Gauss Rifle has nearly identical range to an AC2 with 7.5 times the firepower. The only thing the AC2 has is more shots per ton over a Gauss Rifle and a /miniscule/ range advantage that is easily covered by any mech that can manage a 60 kph run vs an Atlas at 3/5. There's essentially no range advantage and a massive damage disadvantage... this isn't even a logical debate anymore. If you can fit the Gauss Rifle it's superior to the AC2. Every. Single. Time.

I agree with you in the fact that a Gauss Rifle should be mounted on an Atlas. However, a mech that is more mobile and that can maintain the 720 meter distance between himself and his opponent can be more favorable in the use of the AC/2 than most people think. Yes, and the 45 rounds per ton also plays a big factor when sniping. When you go out, make sure you have enough ammunition.

[XavierX]

Christopher Dayson, on 26 May 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

The only definitive rules for the weapons we have is the Table Top really. That's what I'm going by. Recycle mechanics of any sort should not increase or decrease a weapons effectiveness or damage over time otherwise it upsets balance completely.

This isn't a turn based game. It's also skill based, not based off of dice. ROF is going to matter. TT rules are great and all, but they aren't going to be what the Devs are sticking to exclusively. Tonnage, damage, rof and heat will have to be tinkered with for the sake of balance.

[Stone Profit]

Jacob Davion, on 26 May 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

Yeah, right. And if you're 720 meters away, the only thing you can hit it with is an AC/2.

You feel free to count on keeping in a 90 meter zone. Ill take advantage with my mix of er ppc ,gauss rifle and lrms.

[Jacob Davion]

XavierX, on 26 May 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

This isn't a turn based game. It's also skill based, not based off of dice. ROF is going to matter. TT rules are great and all, but they aren't going to be what the Devs are sticking to exclusively. Tonnage, damage, rof and heat will have to be tinkered with for the sake of balance.

Exactly. TT rules are very important when you're actually loading out your mech and you have the knowledge of crit space and tonnage and what not. But it indeed isn't a turn based game. ROF will matter. For example, for a very long time I loved the Awesome, because of it's awesome firepower. BUT, the ppcs, have a slow rate of fire in the game compared to lasers, so......having an Awesome can be great in fire support, but when it comes face to face with an Atlas in close range, the Atlas will have more weapons and a higher rate of fire than the Awesome's ppcs.