161 replies to this topic

[BrkDncr]

I'm voting to have SSRMs target multiple components at random rather than focusing on CT. With hitbox and latency issues resolved, my CT is getting hit a lot more now with non-SSRM fire, which makes SSRMs significantly more deadly. If it's on the To-Do list, great. I don't think any other adjustments to how targeting works needs to be made.

[Theobald Hauser]

They're already hitting torsoS, and more is on the way.

[blinkin]

Amarius, on 25 January 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

They're already hitting torsoS, and more is on the way.

tis one of the major reasons why i like standard srm more. i get to do precision component targetting. back when streak cats were still on the field i used to run up and beat their faces in with my 4x srm6+artemis.

i don't really think streaks are OP at the moment just bland and require very little skill. that is why i personally would like to see some changes.

well they might be a little OP in light vs. light combat, but that may have more to do with the fact that they are the only weapon that is immune to lag shield. i think if they can nullify the lag shield many of the other weapons will do just as well as streaks.

[TDR3D]

Let's not beat around the bush here, streaks are only a problem when mounted on light mechs, firing at light mechs. Streaks IMO are fine if the mediums or higher take them, so any balance suggestions should keep that in mind

[Solis Obscuri]

Streaks are ******** because two SSRM-2s are currently more useful than 2 LRM-20s, regardless of what you put them in.

[Theobald Hauser]

TDR3D, on 25 January 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

Let's not beat around the bush here, streaks are only a problem when mounted on light mechs, firing at light mechs. Streaks IMO are fine if the mediums or higher take them, so any balance suggestions should keep that in mind

This. Exactly.

Solis Obscuri, on 25 January 2013 - 03:23 AM, said:

Streaks are ******** because two SSRM-2s are currently more useful than 2 LRM-20s, regardless of what you put them in.

WHAAAAT ?

Edited by Amarius, 25 January 2013 - 04:33 AM.

[focuspark]

Amarius, on 24 January 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

1- Of course theyre are, SRMs 2 are lighter than SSRMs 2

That half ton is insufficient to create a balance. Have you ever, or would you ever mount SRM2 other than in an attempt to win an argument? Do you ever see them being used? I spend a lot of time holding a baby and watching YouTube on my phone, so I get to see a lot of MW:O videos and never have I seen a SRM2 launcher in one. I've never seen one as a ghost spectator either.

Amarius, on 24 January 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

2- It's the other way around boy. You're proving that SRMS ARE UNDEPOWERED, and that they SHOULD be partially guided, and you're still trying to nerf Streaks.

Since the to-hit change is the same for a AC and a SRM, are you suggesting that AC should be guided as well? SRM are far from underpowered. I'll let my CAT-A1 SRM6 (aka FlakCAT) show you some time. 90 pt alpha strike is a nasty thing, and it still has room for a massive engine, max armor, and a crap ton of ammo.

Amarius, on 24 January 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

You're working on the premise that streaks are OP, when they aren't. All lights-streaks problems stem from ECM, and nothing else. And no, ECM shouldn't be removed, and even not nerfed too.
Speaking of that, I'm startled that you're not invading my own suggestion thread about some streaks-ranting too, given you're doing it on everybody elses' threads. You do hate me as much ? :'(

Hate no. Find you rather tiresome, yeah maybe. That's beside the point. When compared to other weapons SSRM are unbalanced because you see them on at least 50% of the builds which allow missiles and you never seen SRM2. SRM4 are hardly seen, hell I even took flak about using them once with ghost riders saying stuff like "OMG, this ***** is using SRM4" and "hey focus, use streaks they're better and lighter"

Amarius, on 24 January 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

STOP.
LYING.
Streaks never miss. That's their POINT. They CAN'T FIRE if they're not sure to HIT.

Given the chance that an AC has about a 70% chance to hit at close range on TT and SSRM have the same chance at close range as well, I'd say they miss about 30% of the time. Sure, when SSRM miss on TT they don't fire so technically they never miss, but you know what I meant when I said "miss". You're just distorting the conversation in an attempt to "win" a discussion - which cannot be "won" because it's not a contest.

Paul and team will make the final decision and there's a very good chance they'll never even see these discussions.

TDR3D, on 25 January 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

Let's not beat around the bush here, streaks are only a problem when mounted on light mechs, firing at light mechs. Streaks IMO are fine if the mediums or higher take them, so any balance suggestions should keep that in mind

But light mechs are valid mechs as well. Are you honestly suggesting we bar a light mech from mounting a light weapon? Also, with SSRM2 I can hunt Jenners in my Stalker - that doesn't seem right.

[Theobald Hauser]

focuspark, on 25 January 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

That half ton is insufficient to create a balance. Have you ever, or would you ever mount SRM2 other than in an attempt to win an argument? Do you ever see them being used? I spend a lot of time holding a baby and watching YouTube on my phone, so I get to see a lot of MW:O videos and never have I seen a SRM2 launcher in one. I've never seen one as a ghost spectator either.

That, it's because streaks answer a problem srm2s don't.

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Since the to-hit change is the same for a AC and a SRM, are you suggesting that AC should be guided as well? SRM are far from underpowered. I'll let my CAT-A1 SRM6 (aka FlakCAT) show you some time. 90 pt alpha strike is a nasty thing, and it still has room for a massive engine, max armor, and a crap ton of ammo.

Missing the point. By the TT rules you quote, SRMs are guided. So you can't just use some out of context alone sentence from sarna.net to try to trick people in believing you're backed by TT.

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Hate no. Find you rather tiresome, yeah maybe.

Stop saying false things, I'll stop proving you're wrong.

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That's beside the point. When compared to other weapons SSRM are unbalanced because you see them on at least 50% of the builds which allow missiles and you never seen SRM2.

Because streaks are the only counter of something that isn't countered by anything else.
1- You're totally doing things backwards by nerfing streaks, when the problem is lagshielded ECMed lights.
2- It'll just go away when direct weapons will kill lights

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SRM4 are hardly seen, hell I even took flak about using them once with ghost riders saying stuff like "OMG, this ***** is using SRM4" and "hey focus, use streaks they're better and lighter"

never seen someone typing "focus the streaks carrier !!!!"
Seen a lot of SRM4s on the other hand. You really need to play more before advocating of your veterancy. You're showing a lot of totally false statements about your whole two-dozen-of-threads-headed completely false theory. Like when saying LRMs are fire and forget too easy to hit eaysy win button, and at the same time crying ECM made them useless.

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Given the chance that an AC has about a 70% chance to hit at close range on TT and SSRM have the same chance at close range as well, I'd say they miss about 30% of the time. Sure, when SSRM miss on TT they don't fire so technically they never miss, but you know what I meant when I said "miss".

What are you making appear from you hat this time ???! O_o

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You're just distorting the conversation in an attempt to "win" a discussion - which cannot be "won" because it's not a contest.

WAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHA clearly transposing....
There's no win/lose scenario. There even is no 'discussion" of sort, you're totally ignoring everyone that isn't your way (that meaning, like, everyone, period.)
You're typing false assesments. You're wrong. End of debate.

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Paul and team will make the final decision and there's a very good chance they'll never even see these discussions.

And luckily you're not part of it.

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But light mechs are valid mechs as well. Are you honestly suggesting we bar a light mech from mounting a light weapon? Also, with SSRM2 I can hunt Jenners in my Stalker - that doesn't seem right.

Yeah, they shoud be totally defensless. So much fun.

[focuspark]

Enough quoting, thread is getting too long...

Since we're obviously not going to convince each other of anything, this ceased being a debate hours ago and is at best a discussion. As for the 70% chance, I bet even you can do the math to figure out the chance of rolling a 4+ on 2D6.

The lag shield is 50% gone already, the promised "stack rewind" should remove the rest of it. I can already hunt light with lasers easy enough. AND yes, Assault Mechs are supposed to be at a loss when dealing with Light Mechs. That's the balance circle the MW:O devs outlined a while ago.

[CancR]

Bottom line is locking on and not missing is what streaks are spouse to do, dealing way more damage then lasers is not and always hitting CT is not. One day some one at PGI will smarten up, but im not holding my breath.

[Theobald Hauser]

There never was any debate, you never were in the mood for it. Other people already said that to you yesterday and the day before. [REDACTED]

Lights good against everything isn't in any way a balance.
[REDACTED]

Edited by Viterbi, 26 January 2013 - 04:57 PM.
Removed insults

[focuspark]

At no point did I ever lie, and I really do not appreciate you stating that I did.

Nobody suggested that "Lights good against everything" is the goal.

As for being "very bad" at "fun, game design", I happen to think SSRM2 are not fun as is, that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. You're entitled to yours. I'm gonna stop replying to you after this, as it obviously makes you far too hostile a person when somebody doesn't agree with you.
t

[ManDaisy]

ahem now that the drama is over I'd like to have a discussion about my original points:

1) Streak 100% hit rate is making non ECM lights, particularly those under 35 tons which have very little armor, non viable. (case in point, death knell)

2) This is proved by the over abundance of raven 3L mechs and spiders and the general assumption of ECM on any hero mech, which would make them p2w by the way.

3) Without streak 100% hit rate, I predict more people would be willing to use mechs that DO not have ECM, due to the ability to have a chance of survival against streaks.

4) Without the 100% hit rate, jump jets would get power back, as poptarting with streaks have a chance of missing as well.

5) In the BT board game hitting with streaks, (rolling dice), is no where near as easy as MWO. The average to hit a light would have to be a roll of 9 or greater with 2 six sided dice.

6) There is really no reason to have an unbalanced artificial anti light weapon, when the cause for it in the first place is gone, that being the lagshield.

7) A 100% hit weapon, after the lag fix will remove one of the pillars of light mechs, which is being able to out maneuver to survive.


I state I have disproved your board game theory of streaks 100% hit, and have disproved the necessity of it in MWO.

I hereby challenge anyone to a debate on WHY streaks should continue to hit 100%.

Edited by ManDaisy, 25 January 2013 - 10:37 AM.

[focuspark]

Said beautifully ManDaisy. +1 Agreed.

The only viable alternative to dropping the 100% hit rate, that's I've seen, is if the damage is randomly applied to a non-head location and the lock on is lost after each shot.

Otherwise we'll keep getting games like this:
where people TK Ravens as a form of protest.

Edited by focuspark, 25 January 2013 - 10:49 AM.

[Theobald Hauser]

ManDaisy, on 25 January 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

ahem now that the drama is over I'd like to have a discussion about my original points:

1) Streak 100% hit rate is making non ECM lights, particularly those under 35 tons which have very little armor, non viable. (case in point, death knell)

2) This is proved by the over abundance of raven 3L mechs and spiders and the general assumption of ECM on any hero mech, which would make them p2w by the way.

3) Without streak 100% hit rate, I predict more people would be willing to use mechs that DO not have ECM, due to the ability to have a chance of survival against streaks.

Plainly wrong. What makes ECM lights so common is ECM. What makes non-ECm lights uncommon is their lack of ECM.

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6) There is really no reason to have an unbalanced artificial anti light weapon, when the cause for it in the first place is gone, that being the lagshield.

Lagshield isn't gone at all from here in Europe, and the end of lagshield doesn't make in any way streaks stronger. That's no point.

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7) A 100% hit weapon, after the lag fix will remove one of the pillars of light mechs, which is being able to out maneuver to survive.

They're already 100% hitting and, WOW, THERE'S STILL LIGHT MECHS !

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I hereby challenge anyone to a debate on WHY streaks should continue to hit 100%.

They're already, and I just proved that anything won't change by simple logic

[ManDaisy]

Well, you kinda missed my point in that its not about hating on ravens, its that the raven is the only usable light mech right now due to ecm making it partially immune to 100% streak hit rate.

Why is there so many ECM ravens in the first place?


The ANSWER: 100% hitting streak missiles.


Why did streaks have to hit 100% in the first place?

THE ANSWER: the lagshield.

If p then q if not p then not q.

If lagshield then streaks 100% hit
if not lagshield then not streaks 100% hit.



ECM mechs will always be out there but without streak 100% hit, there wont be an exclusive need to carry ECM.

Edited by ManDaisy, 25 January 2013 - 11:07 AM.

[Mawai]

Peter Thorndyke IV, on 24 January 2013 - 04:35 AM, said:

From the Battletech Compendium,
afaik the official BT Rules

Streak SRM

Before the Streak can be fired, it must have a lock on its target . . .
If a lock is achived the Streak SRM's can be fired immediately, all SRMs from that Launcher automaticaly hit!

Here comes the part that made them nevertheless not that OP:

For each SRM the Hit location is determined seperately.

So much for BT rules,
the only tweak that is required, and as far as i could observe in game, allready is implemented, was the hit location diversity for the missiles.

Honestly, they work well currently as far as i could observe.

Actually, if the game determined a hit location separately for each missile in MWO there would not be much issue with them.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to work this way in MWO. If there is a clear path to the CT then the missiles tend to hit there. If the target happens to turn at the right instant the missiles might hit the arm or other torso section but they are most likely still to hit CT.

To implement them in a manner similar to TT the SSRM should have a spread applied to them just like SRM ... the only caveat being that each missile will hit the target mech somewhere no matter what the spread. This would be a significant nerf to the current way SSRMs function. They should spread like any other SRM and then when they are at the target range will hit the nearest section on the target mech whatever it might be on a per missile basis (unless the missile is destroyed or hits another target along its flight path).

I also think that SSRM2 in an ECM field should be able to fire as SRM2 if desired by the pilot.

[Theobald Hauser]

You're kidding. Raven-3L weren't the most used Raven before ECM.

[ManDaisy]

Jenner of was king of light mechs before ECM countered streaks and before when streaks didn't hit 100%. After streaks started hitting 100% people moved from jenners to Raven 3L because of ECM counter to streak missiles and comparable fire power.

ECM use evolved due to streaks hitting 100%.

Streaks hitting 100% evolved due to lagshield.

Without streaks hitting 100% people will adopt the jenner again, and branch out of their ECM streak shielding mechs.

Without lagshield, streaks do not need to hit 100% to balance lights.

Edited by ManDaisy, 25 January 2013 - 11:14 AM.

[Theobald Hauser]

Exactly. You just proved yourself wrong.