565 replies to this topic

[Runenstahl]

Rejarial Galatan, on 30 January 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

1. go here: http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1
and here: mwomercs.com/game on that last link, scroll down, bottom section titled: How Does Game Play Work. First few sentences. THAT.

Thanks for the sources. But the first link says:

MechWarrior Online is being designed to put you the player in the seat of the pilot. It is 100% first person view only. Being the pilot is one of our key design pillars and 3rd person breaks that pillar on multiple levels as seen in many of the other 3rd Person discussions.


Okay. But it also says:

We will investigate 3rd person in the far off distance for special game settings, but this is very far off in the distance.

While we appreciate those who enjoy 3rd person, MWO will be 1st person out of the gate and in the near future.

-Paul
Lead Designer

That was postet half a year ago. So whats wrong with them "investigating" it now ?
And yes, it says in the game description:

MechWarrior Online puts MechWarriors into a first-person, team-based, tactical battlefield where the victors swim in the spoils of war and are rewarded with the almighty C-Bill (in-game currency).

Unless I overlooked something they never promised NOT to offer a third person view. And nobody knows how they ARE going to implement it. So what if they really make it "fair" so you can choose a pure "1st person view match" or a "whatever suits you" match ? No harm would be done.

So why does everybody freak out over something that isn't even there yet, nobody tried out in this game and nobody really knows how it's going to be implemented ?

I for one am more then willing to extend my trust to the devs and let 'em work their magic.
Why don't we try it out and experience how it works before we complain ?

[Ramses2020]

p00k, on 27 January 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

not really, i've played plenty of games with over the shoulder fixed camera views, and abused 3rd person to see over hills. it's easy. you just look off to the side, and the edge/corner of your screen will give you enough of a peek to see if something's on the other side.

for that matter, even if the camera were directly behind the mech to where you couldn't see what was directly in front of you, you could just look down and see what's over a hill. you just have to look down a bit more and be a little closer to the crest, but it still lets you look over without exposing yourself to weapons fire.

see crappy ms paint pic:

Yeah, that camera is WAY too far away from the mech to ensure that the warranted aspects of 3rd person view would be difficult to exploit. That looks to be 20 meters away, too easy to do the stuff you are describing. What I am proposing is nothing like that. More like 2 or 3 meters away. While it may be possible to sneak a peek, the window of opportunity would be so small that it would negate the incentive to do it intentionally. It'd be like trying to get a SSRM lock on an ECM raven with the targeting allowance being 2 meters deep instead of 20. Possible? Yes. Feasible? Hell no.

Besides, my proposal isn't claustrophobic .

EDIT: To sum it up, the question is not if, but how.

Edited by Ramses2020, 31 January 2013 - 05:08 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Coolant, on 31 January 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

<snip>

they advertise it as 1st person, Paul stated as an employee that a KEY DESIGN PILLAR is 1st person. This is all that matters. If they put 3rd into the training map, that is fine, silly but, its a single player map, no real damage. BUT, put it into the main game, and it shatters the game. end of story. The rest is nothing but belligerent nonsensical BS as to why we should have it, when, the key fact is, it will destroy this game, period.

1. this game is broken enough as is. Too many bugs with FPS falling out on people, netcode STILL not up to 100%, better yes, but not at 100%. Collision's NOT in. I can go on with the litany of bugs that this game is STILL plagued with, but, you know where this is gonna end.

2. Advertised as FIRST PERSON. Add in 3rd person and open the door to litigation and bankruptcy as PGI gets slammed for refunds demanded by players and the courts.

3. A good portion of players have already decried this. IF PGI is playing smart, they quash this nonsense and NOT kill the game with forcing a huge chunk out of the game in outrage. See point 1 again.

4. This game is probably MILLION or more lines of code, all of which would HAVE to be duplicated with the addition of an external camera. A POOR waste of time that could fix all the current issues.

5. They say that they do not want to divide the player base, but then, Russ says, that a 1st PP player would NEVER have to fight a 3rd person player, well, that is a division now isnt it. Makes them a liar now dont it? Oh, also, that would require a 2nd server.... another split, another lie. Oh, most important, 1st person is a KEY DESIGN PILLAR, to put us the PILOT into the PILOT SEAT...hmm that means in the cockpit....CHECK First Person View... But, let's break our pillar and lie... PR Nightmare.

6. Common sense says: Let us not anger the 5000+ players who have VOCALLY decried this 3rd person perspective and the potential for that number to be a huge factor larger who have NOT said anything against it. See there is this old business adage: For every ONE person who complains about something the business has done wrong, there are 10,000 just like them who say nothing, but are just as displeased. Financial ruin to anger numbers like that.

7. MOST IMPORTANT: this is NOT an arcade game, this game was sold as a "Tactical Combat Mech Simulator."

8. Those who WANT third person and claim that they want it because they cannot figure out the torso/leg facing thing, well, that is one of two things. A. A smoke screen set of coded words for: I stink at first person, and need an easy mode in a staggeringly hard game. OR B. On PGI for failing in an EPIC manner to not include a proper, playable tutorial, which, IF ATD30 is to be believed, they are going to fix this, and this SHOULD eliminate the need for 3pp. To those who just wanna gawk at their mechs, I get it, I really do, but, uh, mechlab for that. Sorry.

9. 3rd person, is too much of an exploitable thing, and face it, if it CAN be exploited, it WILL be. No question, no doubt, it WILL be.

10. The majority of us know now how to code things into this game. We do it by altering our user.cfg files to make things run smoother graphically or to make joysticks work. What is to say that ONCE the code for 3rd person view is in place, and once we are divided <against PGI's own claim of wanting to divide us, but, they MUST to keep things separate> that someone with no moral or ethical compass, wont create a mod to import 3rd person camera into a 1PP match to flat out cheat? You cannot say this will not happen, as it WILL happen. Hell, even Forza Horizon on the XBOX has been hacked by players to be able to drive the NPC cars that cannot be modded into better rides. That is just a cosmetic hack, imagine the ramifications of hacking in the 3rd person view to gain a real, measurable tactical advantage. Do you really want that? I sure as hell dont.

[Coolant]

Rejarial Galatan, on 31 January 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

they advertise it as 1st person, Paul stated as an employee that a KEY DESIGN PILLAR is 1st person. This is all that matters. If they put 3rd into the training map, that is fine, silly but, its a single player map, no real damage. BUT, put it into the main game, and it shatters the game. end of story. The rest is nothing but belligerent nonsensical BS as to why we should have it, when, the key fact is, it will destroy this game, period.

"destroy this game, period" - you opinion based on mere conjecture without anything solid

1. this game is broken enough as is. Too many bugs with FPS falling out on people, netcode STILL not up to 100%, better yes, but not at 100%. Collision's NOT in. I can go on with the litany of bugs that this game is STILL plagued with, but, you know where this is gonna end.

2. Advertised as FIRST PERSON. Add in 3rd person and open the door to litigation and bankruptcy as PGI gets slammed for refunds demanded by players and the courts.

3. A good portion of players have already decried this. IF PGI is playing smart, they quash this nonsense and NOT kill the game with forcing a huge chunk out of the game in outrage. See point 1 again.

"huge chunk out of the game" - As has been pointed out many times, minority of players actually post on forums, and how many additional would join the game with a 3rd person option?

4. This game is probably MILLION or more lines of code, all of which would HAVE to be duplicated with the addition of an external camera. A POOR waste of time that could fix all the current issues.

5. They say that they do not want to divide the player base, but then, Russ says, that a 1st PP player would NEVER have to fight a 3rd person player, well, that is a division now isnt it. Makes them a liar now dont it? Oh, also, that would require a 2nd server.... another split, another lie. Oh, most important, 1st person is a KEY DESIGN PILLAR, to put us the PILOT into the PILOT SEAT...hmm that means in the cockpit....CHECK First Person View... But, let's break our pillar and lie... PR Nightmare.

6. Common sense says: Let us not anger the 5000+ players who have VOCALLY decried this 3rd person perspective and the potential for that number to be a huge factor larger who have NOT said anything against it. See there is this old business adage: For every ONE person who complains about something the business has done wrong, there are 10,000 just like them who say nothing, but are just as displeased. Financial ruin to anger numbers like that.

7. MOST IMPORTANT: this is NOT an arcade game, this game was sold as a "Tactical Combat Mech Simulator."

8. Those who WANT third person and claim that they want it because they cannot figure out the torso/leg facing thing, well, that is one of two things. A. A smoke screen set of coded words for: I stink at first person, and need an easy mode in a staggeringly hard game. OR B. On PGI for failing in an EPIC manner to not include a proper, playable tutorial, which, IF ATD30 is to be believed, they are going to fix this, and this SHOULD eliminate the need for 3pp. To those who just wanna gawk at their mechs, I get it, I really do, but, uh, mechlab for that. Sorry.

9. 3rd person, is too much of an exploitable thing, and face it, if it CAN be exploited, it WILL be. No question, no doubt, it WILL be.

10. The majority of us know now how to code things into this game. We do it by altering our user.cfg files to make things run smoother graphically or to make joysticks work. What is to say that ONCE the code for 3rd person view is in place, and once we are divided <against PGI's own claim of wanting to divide us, but, they MUST to keep things separate> that someone with no moral or ethical compass, wont create a mod to import 3rd person camera into a 1PP match to flat out cheat? You cannot say this will not happen, as it WILL happen. Hell, even Forza Horizon on the XBOX has been hacked by players to be able to drive the NPC cars that cannot be modded into better rides. That is just a cosmetic hack, imagine the ramifications of hacking in the 3rd person view to gain a real, measurable tactical advantage. Do you really want that? I sure as hell dont.

1) "this game is broken enough as is" - unless you work at PGI is it strictly conjecture on your part if it breaks the game or requires too much time or resources

2) "open the door to litigation and bankruptcy" - Again, entirely speculation on your part

3) "huge chunk out of the game" - As has been pointed out many times, minority of players actually post on forums, and how many additional would join the game with a 3rd person option?

4) "A POOR waster of time that could fix all the current issues" - Again, more conjecture that you have no basis to make unless you actually work at PGI.

5) "well, that is a division now isnt it" - According to this very poll there will be plenty of players that will only play in 1st Person, unless you are admitting that there really aren't that many that are adamant 1st Person players

6) "there are 10,000 just like them who say nothing" - Speculation based upon a biased poll and the minority of players that actually post on the forums. And, once again, how many new players would try the game if there was a 3rd Person option.

7) "this is NOT an arcade game" - Opinion only based on your own personal definition of an "arcade" game. Look up "arcade" and see if the definition fits MWO. I looked it up in webopedia, "A type of game genre that is a fast-paced action game (for PC or console), requiring hand-eye coordination skill to play". In the middle of a brawl with many mechs around it's fast-paced requiring hand-eye coordination and skill to play. I can make "arcade" fit what I want too, which means both of us are right making the point moot.

8) This one I actually agree partially on that there does need to be a proper tutorial. But, you seem to want to keep the game all to yourself and dissuade any 3rd person shooters to come and try the game because they will get turned off being stuck up against a building too many times and not be able to move.

9) "3rd person, is too much of an exploitable thing" - Entirely conjecture on your part. You can have no idea unless you work there how PGI, if they incorporated it, would make it a part of the game. The only thing we can know from the way it was described is that you don't have to face a 3rd person view player if you don't want to.

10) "wont create a mod to import 3rd person camera into a 1PP match to flat out cheat?" - You made the same point twice, why a separate numerical bullet? Unless you work for PGI you have no idea the anti-cheat methods they have in place or will have in place or how the 3rd Person, if it was incorporated, would work. You have no idea whether it would possible to make a mod that would work with the game. Purely speculation.

Almost all of your arguments are based merely on speculation without anything to base them on except your own anger and outrage and emotion. You still haven't answered my 3 points: you would never have to play against a 3rd Person player if you didn't want to, MW4:Mercs was dominately 3rd Person EVEN THOUGH any player could make a 1st Person only server, and I have yet to see the poll you threw up at a popular 3rd Person Shooter site to see if they would be more prone to try MWO if it was 1st Person or 3rd Person because this poll is biased.

Edited by Coolant, 31 January 2013 - 09:23 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

actually Coolant, all my arguments are based on 1. having played, watched or read the majority of Battletech games and its children, novels and the cartoon for the better part of my life. Also, having gamed the majority of my life, I know when a game is broken and when it isnt. it should also be pointed out, that the majority of issues this game HAS right NOW, have been here since I joined Closed Beta in EARLY JUNE. Further, having actually dated a programmer, and having a grasp of how coding works, I know just how monumental the task PGI has right now. I also know that you need two lines of code for every single action in this game. one for FIRST PERSON, one for THIRD PERSON. YOU seem to be speculating MORE than I am bucko. Take those rose colored glasses off, see the flaws for what they, see just how nasty a move it would be to add in something as complicated as third person. see also mechwarrior 4 and its multiplayer and all the god forsaken pop tarting. This is NOT a shooter bub, to try to compare it to that is like trying to compare a rack of lamb to a grilled cheese.

Do also pay attention to this little fact: we all know how to alter this game's code by the simple fact we HAVE TO in order to make some of this game work as PGI intended. Do not fool yourself Coolant into thinking that it will be possible to make each view point exclude the other, it simply cannot happen, there is no way to prevent it, short of NOT HAVING THIRD PERSON.

Now, stop prattling at me about how I know nothing, nearly 30 years playing the games FASA put out, then Activision, and everything in between tells me what this game SHOULD be and the game it currently is, which is nothing more than death match again and again. Now, stop fooling yourself into thinking I am full of crap or do not know what it is I am going on about. Never forget, for ever single one of us that posts our dissent there is a very strong statistical likely hood there are 10 more just as opposed as we are, but remaining silent. ALSO stop trying to compare this game to any other game out there, because it is NOT like any other game out there. It is its own game, and like this or not, they CHOSE to advertise it as 1st person only, they CHOSE to make that a core design pillar, THAT is what they MUST do, else they face litigation on false advertising, which is a distinct potential.

Edited by Rejarial Galatan, 31 January 2013 - 10:18 PM.

[Kasiagora]

I went with undecided because the option I would choose wasn't there; Make it a selectable option in the lobby. People who want 3rd person matches can do it, people who don't want it don't have to have it.
I don't want it personally, but I feel like having the choice is always better than not getting the option as long as it doesn't harm the gameplay of those who don't want it. Unfortunately people like to think in extremes and think it has to be one way or the other with no middle ground. Heck, I might want to hop in a 3rd person match once in a while to take smexy-time pics of my mech for my desktop wallpaper!

[Alois Hammer]

Donamir, on 24 January 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

Did we not do this vote before and it went as a big flaming no like last time?

Yes, but it "accidentally" got "deleted" in the process of (needlessly) merging two threads.

Sooo, we're doing it again...and in the process, proving it wasn't a fluke and the results can be duplicated over, and over, and over no matter how much the Developers spin their excuses on why it's ultimately, eventually going to be shoved down our throats anyway.

Runenstahl, on 31 January 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Why don't we try it out and experience how it works before we complain ?

Why don't we just not waste Developer time, which is already obviously at a premium, on "maybe" crap and let them work on things we definitely need? Is that concept really so difficult?

Coolant, on 31 January 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

You still haven't answered my 3 points: you would never have to play against a 3rd Person player if you didn't want to,

Well, maybe and maybe not. You're assuming they would treat their promise to separate the two gameplay types with more respect than their lofty claims about first-person being "sacrosanct" and such a "pillar of their design." But like all the other Pollyannas, in order to make that claim you have to ignore their basically having thrown "It's all about first-person" out the window, to the tune "Well, but they'll stand by their word this time around...unlike the last time."

Edited by Alois Hammer, 01 February 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[Pvt Ortiz]

628 agaisnt 58....Do we need to say more ? Why is this being talked still...... I suggest the 8% players who wants 3rd person go play Hawken and leave the rest of the 92% alone.

Edited by Pvt Ortiz, 01 February 2013 - 07:43 AM.

[Dreepa]

Problem seems to be that beginners are over burdened and a 3rd person view means more players.

I would suggest to tackle the issues with other measurements, instead of adding a 3rd person view.

Picture in picture cam (like the zoom) could be enabled for a mech that goes reverse.

A probe launched into the sky could offer a short term eagle view.

Stuff like that would still be in line with the mechwarrior brand.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Coolant, on 31 January 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

1) "this game is broken enough as is" - unless you work at PGI is it strictly conjecture on your part if it breaks the game

Id say the 600 "no" answers added to the 4 THOUSAND "no" answers in the last thread speak for themselves on that

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 01 February 2013 - 08:25 AM.

[MWHawke]

Kasiagora, on 31 January 2013 - 11:31 PM, said:

I went with undecided because the option I would choose wasn't there; Make it a selectable option in the lobby. People who want 3rd person matches can do it, people who don't want it don't have to have it.
I don't want it personally, but I feel like having the choice is always better than not getting the option as long as it doesn't harm the gameplay of those who don't want it. Unfortunately people like to think in extremes and think it has to be one way or the other with no middle ground. Heck, I might want to hop in a 3rd person match once in a while to take smexy-time pics of my mech for my desktop wallpaper!

This would put the people who will exploit the cam view with the newbies. How would this help the game grow?

[Runenstahl]

We can vote all we want. We simply (and thankfully) have no say in it.
If we WOULD have the right to decide game-mechanics by vote I'm sure that the game would suck.

Most fans would probably have wanted to take over the boardgame mechanics in a 1:1 translation. And that simply would NOT work in a PC game, OR it would be VERY boring. "Oh look... another mech that switched out everything for medium lasers."

Anyways, this is only wasting my time. You guys just keep "flaming" and "demanding". I'll just go and PLAY the game

[John Norad]

The devs deleted the old 3rd person poll?

Who do they want to fool? It's their own foot they're going to shoot if they put it in.
But hey, modern darwinism and all. If they think they really must work against their customers, so be it.
I just hope they'll never forget that they owe their customers, not the other way around. It's going to be sad if the game starts to suck at some point, but it won't be the end of the world. Lots of other games to play.
Hope the same goes for dev jobs.

Runenstahl, on 01 February 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

We can vote all we want. We simply (and thankfully) have no say in it.
If we WOULD have the right to decide game-mechanics by vote I'm sure that the game would suck.

So far I agree. Majority votes would be terrible. However, if the devs ignore well thought out suggestions and constructive criticism, that's not much better.

Runenstahl, on 01 February 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

Most fans would probably have wanted to take over the boardgame mechanics in a 1:1 translation. And that simply would NOT work in a PC game, OR it would be VERY boring. "Oh look... another mech that switched out everything for medium lasers."

Wohoho ho! Wait a second. So the TT has one glaring balance issue, which isn't even a universal one, since med lasers still suck at range and on open maps you're just going to be slaughtered. And that's your super duper single and sufficient argument for "TT would suck"?
Really?
TT bashing gets really old, you know. At least bring some better arguments. The current incarnation of MW:O has more flaws and balance problems than the TT.
Period.

And EVERY approach is going to suck if you do it wrong. Q.e.d.

Edited by John Norad, 01 February 2013 - 09:54 AM.

[Kasiagora]

MWHawke, on 01 February 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

This would put the people who will exploit the cam view with the newbies. How would this help the game grow?

Good point.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Kasiagora, on 31 January 2013 - 11:31 PM, said:

I went with undecided because the option I would choose wasn't there; Make it a selectable option in the lobby. People who want 3rd person matches can do it, people who don't want it don't have to have it.
I don't want it personally, but I feel like having the choice is always better than not getting the option as long as it doesn't harm the gameplay of those who don't want it. Unfortunately people like to think in extremes and think it has to be one way or the other with no middle ground. Heck, I might want to hop in a 3rd person match once in a while to take smexy-time pics of my mech for my desktop wallpaper!

I put those 3 choices, because they are the only ones that matter. There is NO way to add in that camera that is healthy for this game. period. It would open them <PGI/IGP> to financial ruin from the thousands of Founders demanding refunds of ALL monies paid into the game on the basis of 1st person only, and would open them to litigation on the basis of Truth In Advertising laws and the fines and forced refunds from that. Also, it would damage them irreparably in the PR department because at that moment, the fact that 1st person is not only sacrosanct <Russ's words folks> but <PAUL's Words> A KEY DESIGN PILLAR are both lies and if they are willing to shatter a KEY DESIGN PILLAR in a blind money grab, what is next?

Runenstahl, on 01 February 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

We can vote all we want. We simply (and thankfully) have no say in it.
If we WOULD have the right to decide game-mechanics by vote I'm sure that the game would suck.

Most fans would probably have wanted to take over the boardgame mechanics in a 1:1 translation. And that simply would NOT work in a PC game, OR it would be VERY boring. "Oh look... another mech that switched out everything for medium lasers."

Anyways, this is only wasting my time. You guys just keep "flaming" and "demanding". I'll just go and PLAY the game

We vote with our wallets. THAT is where we have the control. They anger us, we walk and take our money with us. They anger us badly enough, we demand money back and then walk.

[Rejarial Galatan]

bump. keep the vote alive folks. keep your voices held high in our cry against this.

[FrostPaw]

My primary concern is that PGI have not proven to be effective at designing mechanics that cannot be exploited. Look at all the ways people have exploited the game since open beta began, ....now tell me when they implement 3rd person it won't be full of exploits...

While I'm not 100% against the idea of a 3rd person camera that is perfectly balanced vs a 1st person camera, I have zero belief that balance will be achieved and that whatever implementation they try it will hurt the gameplay rather than enhance it.

There will always be a situation where third person camera is more useful, situational awareness, reticle placement through terrain, ambush cover etc....and so all I see is how it will detract from first person. Even if they separate the matches I feel the first person playerbase will decline and the third person playerbase will grow meaning I will eventually be pushed out of the game or forced to play in a way i do not appreciate.

[Rejarial Galatan]

FrostPaw something you did not take into account fully. You hit on it in part when you said the 1st Person base would diminish, this is true, the angered Founders that no longer have any faith or trust in a company that is willing to shatter a KEY DESIGN PILLAR in favor of a money grab. I do not know if you would leave over this, and make no assumption on that, as you hint at staying even if they do. But also, it would be a huge can of worms as every mechanic, every line of code, broken or otherwise must be duplicated with 3rd person in mind. There were bugs and exploits from back in CLOSED BETA that still exist today. Some were quashed in prior patches, but, and this is nearly comical, but they came back <some at least> when they tried to fix OTHER bugs.... Coding sucks, I should know, my ex tried to teach me how to code... So I do not envy PGI with this task, but, they really outta stop taking out the shot gun and shooting themselves in each foot with trying to add in something far more complex that would only exacerbate the problems and NOT fix them.

[Armando]

I would be alright with a 3rd person PoV if and ONLY if all the following requirements are meet...

...No weapons can be fired while in 3^rd person
...No movement allowed while in 3^rd person
...You can see your mech and only YOUR mech

The only reason I would want any form of 3rd person would be so I can look at how awesome my paint job looks outside of the mechlab.

[Thorn Hallis]

I wonder where those 5000 votes came from when there are allegedly only 1500 to 2000 people playing MWO...