20 replies to this topic

[HeavyG]

Hi all, ill just ask quick, since i cant decide on those three, i just saved around 7 mil CB, which one you suggest? Regarding weapons equipped i know i have to make my decision on which variant to choose based on hardpoints, but just cant decide between those three. Awesome is in there only because it has more armor and only 8T is an option (9M is way way to expensive). But i guess its the slowest of the three, in both torso turn rate and run speed.

So IF you think armor of awesome is that much more important for new player, we are done. Awesome 8T it is. If not....

...here we go again, second round, catapult vs cataphract. I have no idea which variant, the one that stands out in price is 3D, its much more expensive then any of other ones. Is it worth it?
4X is slow as hell, so im kinda turned off by that, also with 4x balistics you have to be good at aiming long range, and in short range you are dead. I guess 4x is sniper kinda mech.

All in all, im looking for all in one mech, i want good long range (LRM's preferably, since im not so good at aiming), i want nice medium range and also short range if possible. I want nice armor so i dont die so fast.

Thanks so much. Also would be nice if you could give me some builds.

[John MatriX82]

Awesome? No. You can do good in that mech but it's not easy, because it's like running around with a giant moving hitbox. I used them, but kept only the AWS 9M. The others killed my kdr

So Phracts and Catapults.

The former is a good overall brawler and can also be a good sniper; Catapults are less suited for brawling (head hitbox is HUGE, but torso twist is the best among all the mechs and most of the time you can use XL engines, side torsoes are difficult to hit); you can reach certain op or near-to-op builds such as SRMpults (and streakpults) on the A1, or the infamous AC20pults and Gausspults on the K2.. but all of these have serious range/speed/fragility issues. I use SRMpult and the Gausspult, but they are glass, the former is quickly dispatched when you lose an arm, the other blows up very fast if anything closes up or if you're swarmed.

If I were in you, I'd go with Cataphracts. 1X (AC 20, STD 300, 5Mlas is a beast), 3D (STD 280, AC 20, 3 mlas 1 LLas) are the best variants imho, 2X is another good brawler if you take advantage of dual SRM4's or eventually SRM6 in the missile arm.

The 4X is very limited and slow, I'd not recommend it, unless you want to exp 3 cataphracts and the 3D is too expensive for you (but the 280 xl in there is rather useful for long to mid-range builds for the whole chassis, besides 4x of course).

If you want to brawl go with 280/300 STD + endo and DHS, if you want to snipe or stay at mid range, only to close up to finish the work, 280/300/325 xl, but beware side torsoes are quite big; learn torso twist to expose the giant arms to tank incoming damage.

Edited by John MatriX82, 24 January 2013 - 02:38 AM.

[HeavyG]

Thanks man, very helpfull. Is there a way to make cataphract or catapult use LRM's? Or are LRM's in those two fail? My idea is to:

shoot LRM's AND either AC5 (or any other AC) or LB10x or PPC for long range, then for closer fights im either for Streak SRM's (maybe normal SRMs) or medium laser or even LB10x since it spreads so i hit easier. I absolutely HATE shooting single projectile like AC's for close range because i cant hit sh*t. I really prefer to have at least 1 LRM either 15 or 20, maybe 10 if mass and space is problem.

I know im complicated but there you go guys, suggest me a mech and model for my wishes...

Thanks all.

[Ursh]

I've mastered the C4 and A1 cats, plus elited out the C1 and K2. I'm currently working on the Cataphracts 1x, 2x, and 3D.

John MatriX82 has pretty solid advice on builds.

Catapult C4- Pros: Can LRM+tag or SRM pretty well, super flexible. Cons: Can't SRM as well as the A1
Catapult A1- Pros: 6xSRM6 or 6xSSRM2 can be really deadly. Cons: Not a good LRM boat because no spot for TAG.
Catapult C1- Pros: 4 laser 2 missile hardpoints. Cons: It doesn't do anything the K2 or C4 don't do better.
Catapult K2: Pros: 2xGauss, 2xAC20, 4xPPC, 4xL-laser, very flexible Cons: Gauss build is slow, ac20 build is very slow.

Cataphract 1x: Pros: Nice dispersion of hardpoints over the mech. Cons: No missiles, if you like those.
Cataphract 2x: Pros: 2 missile hardpoints, flexible loadouts. Cons: Gives up several laser hardpoints for the missles.
Cataphract 3D: Pros: Jump jets, 2 ballistic slots. Cons: Jjets take up four critical slots, making it more difficult to achieve certain builds with Endo Steel, DHS, and xl engines.
Cataphract 4x: Pros: 4 ballistic slots for 4xAC5 is pretty cool. Cons: Engine capped at 255, making this mech quite slow. All four ballistics are in the arms, so you can't mount quad UAC5.

I know nothing about Awesomes, sorry

Edited by Ursh, 24 January 2013 - 04:26 AM.

[Ursh]

HeavyG, on 24 January 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

Thanks man, very helpfull. Is there a way to make cataphract or catapult use LRM's? Or are LRM's in those two fail? My idea is to:

shoot LRM's AND either AC5 (or any other AC) or LB10x or PPC for long range, then for closer fights im either for Streak SRM's (maybe normal SRMs) or medium laser or even LB10x since it spreads so i hit easier. I absolutely HATE shooting single projectile like AC's for close range because i cant hit sh*t. I really prefer to have at least 1 LRM either 15 or 20, maybe 10 if mass and space is problem.

I know im complicated but there you go guys, suggest me a mech and model for my wishes...

Thanks all.

Ballistics+missiles+lasers would be the Cataphract 2x. The missile slots are in the left arm, so there's room for big launchers. None of the Catapults combine missiles+ballistics, and neither do the Awesomes if I remember correctly.

There is a mech that combines missiles+ballistics+lasers with every variant though, the Atlas. Just don't buy the AS-7K if you decide to look into that chasis.

Edited by Ursh, 24 January 2013 - 04:29 AM.

[Budor]

If you want ballistics go with Phract 3D (2X for mini atlas or 1X for lazors ).

If you want to snipe buy a K2. (2x gauss or 2x ac20 for lulz)

If you want a balanced platform that can be used in many ways go with the C1 (LRM+Tag or SRM+Mplas etc).


Both Cats and Phracts are in really good shape atm. I wouldt recommend the A1 or the 4X though because they are very limiting.

Edited by Budor, 24 January 2013 - 04:32 AM.

[John MatriX82]

HeavyG, on 24 January 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

Thanks man, very helpfull. Is there a way to make cataphract or catapult use LRM's? Or are LRM's in those two fail? My idea is to:

shoot LRM's AND either AC5 (or any other AC) or LB10x or PPC for long range, then for closer fights im either for Streak SRM's (maybe normal SRMs) or medium laser or even LB10x since it spreads so i hit easier. I absolutely HATE shooting single projectile like AC's for close range because i cant hit sh*t. I really prefer to have at least 1 LRM either 15 or 20, maybe 10 if mass and space is problem.

I know im complicated but there you go guys, suggest me a mech and model for my wishes...

Thanks all.

Hmm later on I'm running a C1 with dual PPCs, dual SRM6 and dual Mlasers. Sounds like a Joke but with either 280xl or 300 xl is funny, you can spam the PPCs and most of the players will be annoyed by that; the consequence is that they are going to charge you thinking to take advantage of the 90m minimum range of the PPCs, which is covered by mlasers and much better by the SRM6..

However if you want to use LRMs then I won't reccommend to you a Phract. 2X can mount LRMs, but arm's tubes is 4 total, so any LRM will fire several consecuitve salvoes, resulting in less damage (the target can reach cover before you've unloaded all the salvo) and the DPS will lower a lot, because the recycle time of the weapon starts after the last missiles are out. Best use for that arm is for SRMs or SSRMs.

So if you want to mix it up I guess a Catapult C1 would do, you can place a couple of LRM15 in there and build the rest accordingly with 1 tag and other lasers as backup.

Despite its role in TT or even in this game, I think better lrm platforms are going to be Stalkers, Atlas DDC or even Awesomes, although as you've noticed i tend not to advice them. You can self tag with those (something that not with all the Catapults you can do) and they can deal with closer range targets much better than a Catapult of the C series.

Plus, whenever you want to EXP 2 further variants, always using LRMs, then A1 is going to be very limited and team-reliant (no pug for it as a LRM boat) and the C4 is another limited variant, you can self tag but then slots dedicated to backup weapons are rather few if you get caught in a bad place.

In general, due to ECM i tend to consider direct fire much more reliable than LRMs, that's why I initially suggested cataphracts.

Ursh, on 24 January 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

John MatriX82 has pretty solid advice on builds.

I know nothing about Awesomes, sorry

Thanks man, nice advices of yours too

Awesomes have their niche as being nice lrm and direct energy supports. Their problems are:
-Anything that an Awesome can do, any Stalker will do it better
-Besides 9M (which is the only -imho of course- variant worth) they tend to be rather slow; max engine rating is 290, so you can't even reach 300 to add 1 more DHS within the engine to save crit space outside from it and you'll mostly end up using 275 or 280, also because a 290 STD must be acquired specifically for this mech
-Giant hitboxes, low general armor, even if you run 11/13/11 in your back. Slapping an XL engine in a Cataphract is going to make you last longer or equally than an Awesome with a STD engine (because you have more mobility, smaller hitboxes, ballistic firepower). As already said, Catapults with XLs are quite effective instead.
-XL on any Awesome is suicidal (if this isn't clear ). Only very large engines on the 9M can be competitive (375/385) to take advantage of innominable speed for an assault. I use my own with a 325 STD however, XL's are a bad idea anyway and it's a matter of seconds to end up into a bad place in the worst moment.

Edited by John MatriX82, 24 January 2013 - 05:42 AM.

[Midvalley]

Your desired playstyle sounds kinda similar to what I am doing now.

I decided to start collecting/leveling the Catapults after finishing the Centurions. To start I went with a C1 build with Endo/DHS/300xl 2xLRM15s,2xLL, & Tag. I had an additional ML in there for awhile in the CT, but I'm currently trialing without it in favor of an extra heat sink.

The 2xLRM15 isn't really the rain-of-death you see some from the LRM boats, but I find it has a suppressing effect on enemy movements if chain-fired into a barrage. Helps to hold some groups to cover during the approach so you can flank/group up with team mates. Once within 400-600m I try to circle outside of the skirmishes, maintaining minimum lrm distance & adding in the LLs for focused damage to weak points. YMMV, mine certainly does depending on teammates/opponents .

I might drop that extra heatsink yet for extra armor (at 383 right now), as I don't really miss the extra damage of the ML, and without the heat from it I think the mech would be fine with one less sink. I also originally intended to load a 295xl, but those things are so expensive I just used the 300xl out of my Cent-D. I'm on the fence right now about doing that to gain the .5 tons for... something, or grabbing the K2 and starting on that chassis.

[Takony]

Hi!

Never tried Catapult or Awesome. Had lots of fun with the Cataphract.

On the Cataphracts: I've mastered the 1x and the 4x. I couldn't really come up with anything viable on the 2x so I've sold it off after elite skills. Never had a 3D.

On the 1x with endo and dhs, I've used the classic
- 5ML+ ac20 or gauss (remember to slap a CASE on the gauss since the weapon explodes!) setup, as well as a
- 5 Large laser one , enjoyed all three.
Engine is 300 or 280 std.

On the 4x, with xl255 endo dhs, I've used the
- 4x AC5+2ML setup (180 ammo or 6 tons) for medium range direct fire support role, weapon grp 1 is the 4 ac5, in chain fire mode, group 2 are the 2 MLs and 3 is the alpha, than later switched to a sniper build:
- 2 gauss, 1 ER large laser in the center torso. This build proved to be quite nice, since I could deliver a (theoretical since the laser has to be painted on the target for the beam duration to reach maximum damage) 39 alpha at long range, or just harass people far far away while reserving ammunition for the gausses, or just make them mad with sustained fire by shooting only 1 weapon at a time, which also offsets their aim by rocking their cockpit.

I've also watched some youtube vids of a mixed build for the 4x with 1 AC 10, 1 LBX-10 and 2 MPL.

If you have tonnage/crits left, get AMS on yout Phract.
I would also add that XL is a no-go for brawling (at least for me), and is a liability in general.

Hope that helps.

[edit: typos]

Edited by Takony, 24 January 2013 - 07:27 AM.

[Cerlin]

Since you like LRMS the Catapults are pretty awesome for this. The C1 or the C4 are good choices, I own both and they can both be great when turned into close range brawlers too. The Cataphrach 2x is also very fun and can have a lot of possible builds. You can get a similar amount of missiles as the C1 (two mounts, so two lrm 15s) and you get lasers and ballistic slots as well. I have met players who did a very effective mixed ranged CTF-2X build including LRMs. Objectively I would say the catapult is easier to start with, skinner, faster, and has more balanced hardpoints. I like both and drive the CTF more though.

[Elyam]

AWS-8T is a pretty good fit for your long-range style with good missile capability, beam points for TAG and backup lasers. Work in the online mechlabs to see if any loadouts per speed are acceptable to you. You'll have to be good at hull-down and pop-up/out use of cover to avoid the large front profile of the AWS getting whittled down by heavy snipers. You may want to save this for a second purchase down the road after you've really acclimated to success and survival in the indirect fire-support role, but even then, the Stalkers are often a preferred choice.

You can't go wrong heading down either of the Cat' paths (I've mastered them both, I think many longer-time beta players have). Others above have outlined well the qualities of each. I use a 2X presently, built for a different role (cavalry, similar to a heavy Dragon). I agree with the assessment above that the 2 arm missile points - while superb for the 2 SRM6-A I'm using - are not well-suited for your LRM use.

So these things considered, I'd have to recommend the Catapult line for you as a superior LRM mech with goood armor and mobility options and secondary weapon and accessory support that will also serve you well for other experiements until you get further along in experience, wealth, and knowledge of your own preferences - something that can take quite some time. As to which 'Pult, see the reccomendations above, but I'd recommend working through the whole line on the way to mastery, testing a variety of approaches.

I sometimes think this: Once the meta-game/CW is fully under way, it would be great to sometimes have missions where there is little or no intel on the possible opposing force(s), and no part of the merc contract specifying lance weight due to the unknown nature of what might be encountered. In such a situation, what do you drop with? what can deal best with anything you might face in one or more battles? I imagine that the Catapults would often be my go-to for such situations due to their ubiquitous nature.

[Hex Pallett]

Short and clear:

If you wanna rain down missiles to your foes (and occasionally PPC), Catapult.

If you wanna shoot ye foes in dem face, Cataphract.

If you wanna be awesome, Awesome.

[HeavyG]

Thanks guys so much. But after a whole day of thinking and using web tool to try equip stuff (damn this is addictive), i settled....on two: either C4 or 2X. Basically i want to use SSRM and some lasers, and one long range weapon. So i came up with this, and would ask you kindly to inspect what i piled up:

C4: 3x SSRM2, 1x LRM20, 2x Med lasers, endo and dual heat sinks, with AMS, and ammo in legs and filled with DHS. Problem here is you can use only 2 slot energy weapons in torso, so PPC and stuff is out of the question (as far as i caould see it). Then if i would like to go short range just dismount LRM and put another SSRM there, so 4xSSRM2 and 2x MLAS.

2X: 3xMLAS, 2xSSRM2, then either Ultra AC/5 (for sniping) or LB 10-x, endo and DHS, with CASE where ballistic is and AMS, ammo.

Basically difference is that 2X has 3xLasers, where c4 has 2. And C4 uses (i equipped) 1x LRM's where 2X uses AC. I could also put PPC to replace one MLAS, but weight kills it.

I think it comes down to LRM's or AC/LB 10-x. Big plus is also c4 uses jump jets, which i find AWESOME. But minus is that it has much less armor than 2x. I also love SSRM missiles = i can have 4 on C4 and only 2 on cataphract. Then again i like sniping with AC but LRMs look so cool...Just simply cant decide.

Any suggestions?

Thanks again guys.

Edited by HeavyG, 24 January 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[Hex Pallett]

C4 is ABSOLUTELY THE WORST variant in all Catapults. I strongly recommend you to go for C1 with 2xLRM15, 3xML and TAG.

[John MatriX82]

HeavyG, on 24 January 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

Any suggestions?

Thanks again guys.

UAC5 and "sniping" isn't a couple of things that goes along well.. this is decent for sniping, mid range and if something closes up:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f51db6cdad15eec

If you want something more snipey, although you'll want to keep the medium lasers and the PPC away from each other in close range:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...17d9aefe66396fe

[JayVrb]

Use my build:

"Generalist Cat"
XL300
2x Streak
1x LRM 20+Artemis
1x SRM 6+Artemis
2x Medium Lasers
4 JJ
AMS
Near max armor, save a few on the legs

If you wanna dump the jump jets, it just frees up more space for you to do whatever else you want (more ammo, pulse lasers, XL 315, etc), but I like running this because it can handle pretty much any situation with a moderate to strong amount of effectiveness.

[Limekiller]

Might I recommend the following Cataphract 2x build?

CTF-2X

DHS/Endo/FF (yes, FerroFibrous... heh)
Std 280 engine w/ 1 DHS
PPC
Gauss rifle (3 tons of ammo)
2 MedLas
2 SSRM2s (2 tons of ammo)
412/434 armor (11 less than max in each leg is all you're missing)

Costs 9,768,335


Has excellent damage potential across all range bands, with a pretty decent alpha if you unload everything at once at something that is, say, 150m away. Heat efficiency index of 1.23 too, mainly since the Gauss generates almost none. You're actually heat-efficient enough that you could probably get away with an ERPPC instead of the normal one, which gets rid of the close range dead zone from the normal one. (drops efficiency to 1.12, which is still better than a lot of mechs)

Be VERY careful with a 2x about putting too many missile launchers in the arm, as it only has 4 launch tubes there. So, if you, say, put 2 LRM 20s in there and tried to fire both at once, you'd find yourself firing off 10 waves of 4 missiles at a time, which makes life very easy for opposing AMSs.

Anyway, a 2x is like the swiss army knife of cataphracts. It can do a bit of everything, and do it surprisingly well. I haven't tried the cata or the awesome, but I've been very happy with the cataphracts I've been running.

[Wrenchfarm]

I very much enjoy the Phract-3D. 320XL, JJs, 4xMLAS, 2xUAC5, 4 tons of ammo - gives you a versatile and highly mobile heavy fire support mech, just watch those torso bits.

I am a huge fan of the Awesomes. The 8R can be a nasty SRM brawler, the 8Q is the best laserboat in the biz, and the 9M is a super-versatile chassis that can be configured any number of ways (although I prefer my 3xPPC funtimes build.) Don't listen to the haters, if you want to hop in an Awesome, go for it. They're great mechs once you get used to them.

[Budor]

Wrenchfarm, on 24 January 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

I very much enjoy the Phract-3D. 320XL, JJs, 4xMLAS, 2xUAC5, 4 tons of ammo - gives you a versatile and highly mobile heavy fire support mech, just watch those torso bits.

I run the same build but with a 325XL, gives you 3 engine slots for DHS(15). 43/60 Armor on both legs. All criticals used.

[Cleverbird]

Also, its important to note, that if you pick an Awesome, it gives the other team another Assault mech as well. And while I like the Awesome, it pales in comparison to a Stalker or an Atlas.