143 replies to this topic

[Murku]

Kylere, on 24 January 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

I always PUG, playing with a premade trivializes the game to the point that I may as well be running a 150KP Stalker with 20SSRM's.

I have had five kinds of experiences with my groups.

1. The Whiners: They start typing instructions while whining about how their pugs never do as they tell them. Last night I had a guy still typing whines 6 minutes INTO the fight. We may have won, but he and his friends sat there whining instead of fighting. No names mentioned but he and his buddies are on my list to use as cannon fodder.

2. The Silents: Everyone sticks together, level of focus fire determines if we win.

3. The Louds and Prouds: Random Premades talking smack who tell everyone what to do as they charge into the entire enemy pack then whine for the rest of the match about everyone not supporting them. If you charge directly into the enemy and die I will be too busy laughing to console you since I never reinforce stupidity.

4. The Starfish of Heroes: This is the group that treats every drop like a Trial of Position.

5. The Players: The group splits into lances without commo, fire support stays behind the center mass, scouts go out and maintain targets instead of just being spazzy and we win.

Clearly I see mixes of the above, but you have to ask yourself when you are pugging, "Which one am I" and why am I not part of the last group.

This post is too full of Awesome, Censor please.

[Livewyr]

Thirdstar, on 24 January 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

Alright, flaming aside. What you say is somewhat true. IF and that's a big if, PUGs could use all the advice you stated they would stand a better chance (a small chance, mind you) against a premade. This is true, however the chances of all the factors coming together in a full PUG that has no way to select its members or really coordinate before the drop is somewhere between not happening and you wish. Tis' the nature of PUGing.

Conclusion, your ideas are sound. However, you are not the first to have made them. You are also stating that the PUG skill ceiling be stratospheric compared to 4 buddies on TS, who have preselected loadouts that complement each other.

Adult enough?

(Indeed, adult enough, hehe)

It is true, premades will always have an advantage in comms (real time VOIP) and therefore an equally skilled group of players with one side having VOIP will likely favor the comms side.

That being said (I have dropped against fourmans and organized the pugs with a strategy and we wiped the floor with the other team with 2 losses on our side.) Pugs who are willing to read chat and go with a strategy even if it seems bad have a much better chance than those who do their own thing.

Organized random < organized 8man
Organized random =< organized 4man
Organized random >=< 4man
Organized random > unorganized random

Always better odds with organization and teamwork.. in any team format.

[Rotaugen]

I have two accounts. One is my "paid" account with MC and will play in 4 mans maybe 10-20% of the time, the other is a "free" account that uses trial mechs in pugs. It is A Tale of Two Games. It was the best of mech battles, it was the worst of mech battles...
I occasionally get into pugs where all 8 of us tend to stick together (It could be a 4 man and 4 pugs but they work together) and there is actually text chat going on. Then I have a game where any chat is limited to insults and bravado, and we get rolled. I always try to talk, but often have people say "Why should I listen to you?" and then they run off alone and die quickly, coming back into chat to complain about how we didn't support them when their mech is faster and just outran us.

[Thirdstar]

Livewyr, on 24 January 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

(Indeed, adult enough, hehe)

It is true, premades will always have an advantage in comms (real time VOIP) and therefore an equally skilled group of players with one side having VOIP will likely favor the comms side.

That being said (I have dropped against fourmans and organized the pugs with a strategy and we wiped the floor with the other team with 2 losses on our side.) Pugs who are willing to read chat and go with a strategy even if it seems bad have a much better chance than those who do their own thing.

Organized random < organized 8man
Organized random =< organized 4man
Organized random >=< 4man
Organized random > unorganized random

Always better odds with organization and teamwork.. in any team format.

There's nothing in this post I can disagree with. The point of course is that I wish the matchmaker was better, I wish we had a chat/community lobby, I wish ELO to be implemented soon and I hope CW can help solve some of these issues.

My personal opinion is that the majority of the burden to be 'better' should not be placed on the disorganized masses that the PUGs currently are.

It. is. not. fair.

[Kylere]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 January 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

i prefer to get miffed at the 3 PUGs (Stalker, Phract and Centurion)who advance with me and when an Atlas and a Phract pop up over the crashed dropship, Take cover while I trade blows with the 2 Mechs. Best part is when I pop into another cockpit I see the Stalker looking at the ground and the Phract looking back at the other half of the team advancing! Surprisingly they died without a kill between the three and our team won.

Yeah, this is annoying. It is what has put me off on assaults right now.

[Livewyr]

Thirdstar, on 24 January 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

There's nothing in this post I can disagree with. The point of course is that I wish the matchmaker was better, I wish we had a chat/community lobby, I wish ELO to be implemented soon and I hope CW can help solve some of these issues.

My personal opinion is that the majority of the burden to be 'better' should not be placed on the disorganized masses that the PUGs currently are.

It. is. not. fair.

Indeed, I think ELO will solve a lot of it and make for some very good games.

I don't think it's unfair to ask people to work together. (I don't care if you can hardly drive and spend half the time walking into walls, or if you don't know how to lead and such.. I'm more than happy to work with that and help out, so long as you make an effort to be with your team and go with what your team does.)

I know there will never be a solution to disorganized pubs, outside of matching them as best as possible with others like them.. it will be a problem with no end because the very people who have the problem don't read chat so they don't know they have the problem.

One cannot fix a problem they don't know they have.

[Agent of Change]

Thirdstar, on 24 January 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

There's nothing in this post I can disagree with. The point of course is that I wish the matchmaker was better, I wish we had a chat/community lobby, I wish ELO to be implemented soon and I hope CW can help solve some of these issues.

My personal opinion is that the majority of the burden to be 'better' should not be placed on the disorganized masses that the PUGs currently are.

It. is. not. fair.

I agree with you that we need improved MM, and that a lobby would be fantastic. ELO may well make things a little better, and i can't say enough that throwing newbs to the wolves is not a good policy. So there are things we agree on.

I disagree that the 'burden to be better' should not be placed on players. Pick up games by nature are going to have an inherent amount of randomness and in built disorganization. However players need to elevate themselves rather than have the game simplify for them. The 'burden to be better' needs to be placed on everyone.

I don't say this out of arrogance but out of experience, the choices are adapt or accept. Everyone is going to struggle and when you face that moment you can try something different (whether it be voice premades, PUG bossing, focus on teamwork, or whatever) or do the same thing and hope for a different result. The challenge is in facing that moment and overcoming it, that's also where the satisfaction comes from. You don't NEED to premade to succeed but you do need to focus on teamwork and mutual support and those lessons are going to come hard in the PUG environment where there are less factors under control.

I put forth that it is fair in that everyone all things being equal has the same options. However, not everything is not equal and some players see themselves at a disadvantage to people who have gone out of their way to make the best use of everything at their disposal, the truth is they are. But there is no reason for them not to come up with other ways to succeed. The major problem is a lack of respect between the most vocal of the two camps and the fact the community really isn't big enough to have a hard split and remain viable at this point.

[TheMadPoet]

I PUG exclusively, and have been at it quite a while now. My stats are pretty damn bad for win/loss and kill/death. I usually am at, or near, the top of the scoreboard for my team, and usually have many assists.

I've learned to stick together. I've learned if I'm in a fast mech and we are getting LRM'd to pieces, to go harrass the LRM boats.

I've leanred to follow the occasional ecm atlas closely.

I've learned various tactics for various maps.

But...even when our team tries to do the right thing, the premades are usually still able to coordinate far quicker, are almost always in FOTM or optomized mechs (vs a mix of trials and upgraded on our side), and almost always include at least two ecm atlases and two ecm lights (usually Ravens).

All that adds up to us getting rolled quite often vs obvious premades. And many of the prmades make sure and taunt that they are premades nowadays, and gloat on their victories.

Does anyone think that is encouraging?

Premades DO have an advantage, and a big one, and that's OKAY..but they should be fighting mostly other premades and let those that PUG or are new to the game have a chance to settle in and try out various mechs and builds without gewtting rolled so often.

It's better for the game, both population-wise and business-wise.

[Ryokens leap]

Pugs shouldn't feel too bad. I was in an 8 man last night and it felt like a pug match. Team with the most ddc and 3l wins. Most un-fun experience to date. 20 minutes of arguing about who has ECM and if u don't have a ddc or 3l, why not! So many frustrated players. Pugged 10 matches after, 5 wins, 5 losses, more fun than 8 man fiasco.

[Thirdstar]

Ryokens leap, on 24 January 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

Pugs shouldn't feel too bad. I was in an 8 man last night and it felt like a pug match. Team with the most ddc and 3l wins. Most un-fun experience to date. 20 minutes of arguing about who has ECM and if u don't have a ddc or 3l, why not! So many frustrated players. Pugged 10 matches after, 5 wins, 5 losses, more fun than 8 man fiasco.

Do not want touch THAT can of worms with a 10 foot pole. Nuh uh.

(Mixed metaphors are best)

[King Arthur IV]

i was going to start a post but this will do.

the way i see it is, you should aim to do about 300-400+ damage per game. if your doing less its either two things, your getting head shots or your not pulling your weight in damage.
if your doing about 700+ damage per game, two things again. your not focusing fire on components and damaged targets or your team is not pulling their weight.

if you manage to do like 300 damage and die then its ok even if your a dummy who 1v8.
how you deal 300+ damage? well what op said is good for starters. this really is a team game. team will not always do what you want, that is why you must learn to adapt and play the way your team is playing.
obviously there are those team who drop their balls at spawn and you might need to tell the in chat, " move up"

Edited by King Arthur IV, 24 January 2013 - 08:38 AM.

[Novakaine]

Hmm I have a novel idea.
Voice chat.
We use teamspeak and it's great.
And remember stop the pew pew madnes.
Before its to late.

[Jacmac]

Livewyr, on 24 January 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

It's really hard to sympathize with pugs who come on the forums and cry about losing 99% of games in landslides.

I only drop in teams and regularly slaughter solo players with the rest of my team. I have sympathy for them, there should be a solo-only matchmaking mode and PGI knows it. Ultimately, a lot of the solo players will get on voice chat, the rest will quit MWO. How many players a month does PGI lose to the stompings? Only they know.

[Doomstryke]

Or we could just add this game mode called free for all death match. Drop the match length by 5 minutes so games are 10 minutes max and force everyone that isn't paired into solo play only. If your paired with 1 or more you get to play the other game modes.

All joking aside I agree with the OP. If your in a pug take charge and read dam chat. Hell just saying going 3 line or kappa is almost enough to win you the match since staying together is the key.

[Killerwithin]

Yes as pug you simply have to follow those rules but remember you might be dropping with other pugs who do not do that so therefore you lose horribly or perhaps you are dropping against a premade and getting ripped apart that way because they are running REAL mechs not play toys. I see so many horribad mechs its not even funny not to mention horribad pilots who couldn't shoot the broadside of a barn. So therefore I disagree with you. I might be a great pilot dropping with a bunch of horribads therefore I am going to lose there is nothing I could of done to prevent that. You need to remember that everyone has to follow that list not just you.

[Sybreed]

I'm a pug player with a 60% win rate and a 2.8 K/D ratio, I don't know who are these whiners you are referring to.

[Jacmac]

Sybreed, on 24 January 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

I'm a pug player with a 60% win rate and a 2.8 K/D ratio before they took out the alt+F4 death stat avoidance, I don't know who are these whiners you are referring to.

I fixed your statement for you.

[Sybreed]

Jacmac, on 24 January 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

I fixed your statement for you.

and you are completely wrong. Never alt+f4 in my life. I'm just a pretty good pilot, that's all. Don't forget I've been playing since the closed beta in june, so I got a few more tricks up my sleeves than most pilots.

Edited by Sybreed, 24 January 2013 - 09:05 AM.

[Agent of Change]

Sybreed, on 24 January 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

and you are completely wrong. Never alt+f4 in my life. I'm just a pretty good pilot, that's all. Don't forget I've been playing since the closed beta in june, so I got a few more tricks up my sleeves than most pilots.

no no he's technically correct you did have those stats prior to the alt-F4 removal, doesn't mean that has any bearing on it but it is a factual statement. It just happens to be leading for no apparrent reason... have you pissed him off?

[Jacmac]

Agent of Change, on 24 January 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

no no he's technically correct you did have those stats prior to the alt-F4 removal, doesn't mean that has any bearing on it but it is a factual statement. It just happens to be leading for no apparrent reason... have you pissed him off?

No he didn't **** me off. Stats just don't prove anything. he could be a great solo player that hangs back, lets everyone else take the punishment and then swoops in for kills using great marksmanship. Doesn't change the problem for solo players. Someone has to be out brawling for Sybreed to rack up his kills.

Edited by Jacmac, 24 January 2013 - 09:19 AM.