182 replies to this topic

[Okie135]

I think a lot of the Jihad just doesn't fit for me. The cybernetic implants and almost AI nature to some of WoB's stuff doesn't work. Battletech is all about there being ambiguities and no clear good guy all the time. There are not supposed to be any intellegent aliens in BT because that allows something to be inhuman. The story of BT centers around the greatest and worst parts of humanity and how people can be far more monstrous or heroic than any angels or demons from beyond. So even hinting at an AI is a big no-no. WoB started as an interesting division in ComStar, but by the Jihad was the embodiment of everything evil and was the bad guy that everyone could/should hate.

Think about it. Victor Steiner-Davion once kept a clone of the Marik successor to prevent a war. Sun Tzu Liao is as brilliant as he is devious and has motivation beyond being the 'bad guy'. Teddy Kurita had story and tradition that made what was supposed to be the archenemy of the early novels into a respectable House Leader. Romano Liao was absolutely nuts, but you could see the hows and whys. Fredrick Steiner remade himself. Non of the good or bad guys are supposed to be purely good or bad in the BT universe.

On the topic of aging, some of the aristocracy in Battletech last a long time. Victor Steiner-Davion is still around in Dark Age if I remember right.


As for Dark Age... I think the problem lies in its execution. Read this sometime: http://www.michaelastackpole.com/?p=12
It gives the reasons for why they did Dark Age. It wasn't all about the click base games. The first one, Ghost War was in my humble opinion a good novel. However, Dark Age was not written by one person. Some of the ones that followed it were absolute garbage. I think that quality control was what got me about that series. Mr. Stackpole's reasons for writing in that era are perfectly valid.

This was also interesting. http://www.michaelastackpole.com/?p=13

We do need to bring new people into this universe my fellow MechWarriors.

Edited by Clark, 27 May 2012 - 04:14 PM.

[Onager Kell]

actually the clans being such a dominating military force and crushing the inner sphere in the initial onslaught is not that far fetched.
remember one of the reasons the IS was able to adjust so quickly (relative) was because they:

1) Got help from Wolf's Dragoons with equipment updates
2) The tactics they used did not fall into the Clans "minimize loss" paradigm of waging war
3) The sheer number of troops that the IS threw at Clan forces that had been bid down to minimize losing equipment and personnel


anyway, look at some real world examples of some of the stuff you find so unbelievable about the clans:

Middle Eastern countries fighting with each other go back and forth (or they used to) using equipment from soviet era or early nato stuff that was from the 50s and 60s and 70s. The kill each other and fought on a relatively even playing field as far as tech goes and on any given day if the forces are equal it could go either way.
Now look at what happened during the Gulf War, the US brought in tech that was so far above the level of what the M.E. countries had been using that they blew away whole tank regiments in days! Iraq was using tech to fight that was 30-40 yrs out of date. It didn't matter that they had 3000 tanks and the US only had 300 (just an example) the difference in tech made a decided difference.
Not a perfect example but it was given to illustrate the difference tech can make in warfare.

now move on to the society. it was very regimented and based purely on conquest and furthering conquest. lots of feudal japan and Norse elements mixed into the Clans as far as structure of the society goes. the circle of equals, the bidding away of forces, the 1 v1 combat...that's not anything new or contrived, it comes from history.and remember the forces that would eventually make up the clans came from a diverse set of backgrounds. they almost wiped themselves out because of infighting and power struggles and then had to find a way to survive and thrive. ole Nick Kerensky and some of his chums devised a way to eventually have a thriving society. and yes it was built around the warrior and warfare, also not something that is new. there are dozens of cultures down through history that existed for centuries in this fashion. ie Feudal Japan is the first thing that comes to mind

Edited by Mangonel Kell, 27 May 2012 - 04:29 PM.

[Arctic Fox]

HanaYuriko, on 27 May 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

There are a few other references where members of Clan Ghost Bear did DNA testing on killed Blake Domini to confirm their suspicions. From what read into it, the DNA confirmed the rumors.

Really? I must've missed that, then. Where does it say so?

Clark, on 27 May 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

I think a lot of the Jihad just doesn't fit for me. The cybernetic implants and almost AI nature to some of WoB's stuff doesn't work. Battletech is all about there being ambiguities and no clear good guy all the time. There are not supposed to be any intellegent aliens in BT because that allows something to be inhuman. The story of BT centers around the greatest and worst parts of humanity and how people can be far more monstrous or heroic than any angels or demons from beyond. So even hinting at an AI is a big no-no. WoB started as an interesting division in ComStar, but by the Jihad was the embodiment of everything evil and was the bad guy that everyone could/should hate.

What AI? Oh, sure, some systems like the rebuilt SDS in Terra have an AI, I suppose, but it's no (or little) more advanced than what has already been stated to exist in the setting, and in no way is it sentient. Same goes for cybernetics, which have existed in the setting since the very beginning.

And the only thing, as far as I can tell, that makes the Word of Blake in the Jihad 'evil' is the higher on average amount of atrocities they perpetrate, and they are by no means at the top of that category. As far as justifications go, they have a much better one than most other factions...

Edited by Arctic Fox, 27 May 2012 - 04:41 PM.

[Stern ES]

CaveMan, on 27 May 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

We don't even know if average life spans can be significantly extended in real life.

The reason average lifespan was so short in ancient times is due to all the people who died as children or young adults, due to disease, injury, malnutrition, etc. If you survived to your 20s in ancient times you were just as likely to live into your 70s as you are today. A number of people are in the historical record as living into their 90s or 100s. People weren't just keeling over at 46.

In modern times the average is much higher because we've almost eliminated infant mortality in first-world countries. The idea of a family having 8 kids and only 3 of them growing up is unthinkable to us now.

Besides, even if they did discover life-extension technology in BTU, it's gone by now. The Clans have no interest in preserving it since they prefer to be dead before they're 50, and ComStar was only able to preserve a little of the Star League's technology (and they didn't develop new technology because their mindset was entirely about preserving and worshipping lostech).

1) Using a real life reference really shouldn't count. We don't even know if we can make 100 ton functioning robots either, but this is where the realm of discussion is, in THAT universive.

2) I'm aware of the difference average lifespan vs the average life expectancy. In ancient times the life expectancy was lower. The lifespan was IIRC, around 55-60.

3) As I said before, the maximum lifespan is increasing. People are living longer. People also are looking younger, longer. My boss is close to 50 and looks mid-30's. The characters in BT look old by 50's. They look ancient. No character in BT has gotten close to oldest person in the modern age. If anything, let's say that people can't do something like live longer in the future. You'd expect them not to look ancienct in whole photographs at 50, which seems to be the norm.

Edited by Stern ES, 27 May 2012 - 05:56 PM.

[HanaYuriko]

Arctic Fox, on 27 May 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

Really? I must've missed that, then. Where does it say so?

I think it's in Jihad: Final Reckoning book. Or one of the Jihad Hotspots (3072?) source books. What I remember is a point of Ghost Bear elementals were moving through a ruined city after fighting with a number of Manei Domini. When the Point Commander found the body of one of the cybernetically enhanced WoB, He used an instrument and took a DNA sample. That's when they hinted at a discovery for remnants of Clan Wolverine.

[Evinthal]

DireWolf307, on 26 May 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

Definitely anything to do with the Dark Age. It just doesn't "feel" like Battletech to me. Granted, it brought a lot of people in to the game that never would have heard of it otherwise, but they could have modernized BT without raping canon and doing a lot of nonsensical things to do it.

It wasn't the Dark Ages that face raped canon. The two biggest ones are the Jihad, and the Wars of Reaving.

Like others have said, a massive build up in forces, converting House Marik into a puppet state of the Wobbies and ALL UNDER THE NOSES every intelligence agency in the Inner Sphere for the Jihad, and the SCIENTIST CASTE in the clans developing super advanced weapons in secret then rebelling and shattering pretty much EVERY clan. Seriously look at the Nova CEW, it basically amounts to ECM + C3i, + Active probe, sure it can only be used to link three units at a time and it generates a MASSIVE 2 heat per turn, BUT it weighs 1.5 tons and can reconfigure itself to other NCEWs should other ones go out, and it isn't shut out by other ECMs unless they are HOSTILE NCEWs, which no one else had...

not to mention the specific DNA targeting viruses "the society" used to kill off people.

The Dark Ages is duck shaped safety scissors to the felt fabric of Battletech canon compaired to those two.

edit: I did however like the Improved Advanced Tacticle Missile launchers that "The Society" made...

Edited by Evinthal, 27 May 2012 - 06:20 PM.

[Arctic Fox]

HanaYuriko, on 27 May 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

I think it's in Jihad: Final Reckoning book. Or one of the Jihad Hotspots (3072?) source books. What I remember is a point of Ghost Bear elementals were moving through a ruined city after fighting with a number of Manei Domini. When the Point Commander found the body of one of the cybernetically enhanced WoB, He used an instrument and took a DNA sample. That's when they hinted at a discovery for remnants of Clan Wolverine.

There's a scene line that is in JHS:3076, just a bit after the Ghost Bears are handed the Wolverine report in the The Blake Documents. All it really does is imply that they are searching for Wolverine DNA, though, not that they actually find it.

[ndgooh]

the weapons have always bugged the heck out of me<range and weight>, even more so when aerotech was brought into the game.

for a modern example a M1 Abrams tank is 62 metric tons, it has a 120 mm cannon this canon weighs apx, 7.3 tons, and has an effective range of 4000 meters. it carries 42 rounds of ammunition, each rounds weight is 18.6 Kg ( that would be 53 rounds per ton) and travels at 1750 M/S the armour piecing sabot this gun fires will penetrate 560 mm, or 22inches of steel. this gun can fire 12 rounds per minute.

considering each hex in the paper and dice game is 30 meters. the above would be the equiv of 133 hexes.

in game terms this canon would be called a Double Ultra AC 12,weigh the same as a Clan AC5, carry as much ammo as an AC2 and have a range of just over 8 boards (1 board=16 hexes)

Still it doesnt make the game any less fun, im a life long BT addict, i still have an original white cover copy of the game the one with a shadow hawk on the cover. Back then the game only had 14 mechs , and i still had all my hair

[CaveMan]

ndgooh, on 27 May 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

in game terms this canon would be called a Double Ultra AC 12,weigh the same as a Clan AC5, carry as much ammo as an AC2 and have a range of just over 8 boards (1 board=16 hexes)

Not sure that's justified really. I mean, yeah, the range thing there's no question about, but the 8.35kg penetrator at 1750 m/s? That's about 1/50 the impact energy of a Gauss rifle slug*. In other words about 0.3 damage. The GM Whirlwind AC/5 on the Marauder fires 3-round bursts of 120mm shells. Battletech armor is just insanely, mind-bogglingly efficient because (technobabble).

*8.35kg DM33 penetrator @ 1750m/s = 12.75MJ.

125kg Gauss rifle slug @ 3500m/s (twice the velocity of traditional cannons, as stated in BMR) = 765.25MJ

Edited by CaveMan, 27 May 2012 - 07:02 PM.

[Scarlett Avignon]

A few things about this thread.

First, I'd say post-FedCom Civil War, I stopped paying attention to the lore written. It's beyond silly, and was meant to sell those clicky things.

About a lot of the things people are naming:

Melee. Really? Battletech was originally written in a very 'Mad Max' style setting where technology was VERY misunderstood and unabel to be serviced. Supplies were limited and once things broke, they were often broken for good. Mechwarriors in these times (Succession War era) often used melee attacks as a way to save valuable ammunition and weapon wear. Sorry you grew up on the video games where melee was dropped due to technical limitations, but this isn't Steel Battalion or even previous Mechwarrior titles. Melee combat is there. Deal.

Davions. What? You read very different literature from me if the Davions were white knights that could do no wrong. Yes, they were the primary protagonists of the main story arc. Not sure what to say to make you feel better. There is plenty of fiction where other factions were the heroes of the story.

The Clans. The Clans were a fantastic (thought not flawless) addition to the battletech lore. It enable the houses to show their best sides while fighting a common foe. Their weapons and equipment are whined about so often, but that just shows that you weren't playing them correctly. The Clans were meant to be role-played in TT, and if you didn't do that, of course they stomped anything they touched. Learn the game better. Now, I'll be the first to admit that, it's going to be insanely hard to get the Clans right because for them to be remotely fair, the pilots would have to follow Clan honor rules very closely. Also, remember that only front-line Clan units use upgraded tech. The vast majority of clan forces use Star League tech. I'd almost say the best idea is to make fighting the Clans PvE content, but that wouldn't really mesh with the core game concept. Seeing the time-frame that Piranha picked for the game, the Clans are coming, whether you like it or not.

[Scarlett Avignon]

CaveMan, on 27 May 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

Battletech armor is just insanely, mind-bogglingly efficient because (technobabble).

I think that's a problem that a lot of people have. They try to compare BT universe technology to our own, but don't take into account that POSSIBLY, in the next thousand years, we create more efficient warfare technology that we simply don't have an analog to in our present time.

That being said, autocannon ranges are wonky, but they had to work that way for game balance. If you reverse the ranges on the guns (AC/20 shoot out to 24 hexes while AC/2 shoot out to only 9) there would never, ever, ever, ever be a reason to mount any light ballistic weapons.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Franklen Avignon, on 27 May 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

Also, remember that only front-line Clan units use upgraded tech. The vast majority of clan forces use Star League tech. I'd almost say the best idea is to make fighting the Clans PvE content, but that wouldn't really mesh with the core game concept. Seeing the time-frame that Piranha picked for the game, the Clans are coming, whether you like it or not.

I have to disagree with this part, second line Clan units used second line CLAN tech, but that is not the same as Star League equipment. A Commando IIC or Warhammer IIC is a whole different beast then a Star League equivalent.

Edited by Tincan Nightmare, 27 May 2012 - 07:48 PM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

The biggest problem I had with the lore, was how neurohelmets and mech piloting was explained. I'm not talking about the TT rules, but just the explanation on how mechwarriors drove their machines. Instead of the overly complicated design of manual controls like joysticks and foot pedals combined with a subconscious link to the mechs gyro, they should have just made it where the mech became an extension of the mechwarrior body once he/she donned their neurohelmet. Considering the complex activities and combinations of actions that mechs can perform, this would have simplified how mechwarriors could control a 20 to 100 ton monster to run, use jump jets, pick things up with fully articulated hands, fire different combinations of weapons, etc...

[Scarlett Avignon]

Tincan Nightmare, on 27 May 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

I have to disagree with this part, second line Clan units used second line CLAN tech, but that is not the same as Star League equipment. A Commando IIC or Warhammer IIC is a whole different beast then a Star League equivalent.

IIc variants are used by front line troops who choose to, or are being punished (or honored in the case of the Orion IIc) and better equipped solhama units. In the lore, it's stated many times that Inner Sphere forces are not nearly as concerned with garrison forces because their mechs do not posses the technology that front line mechs do.

Yes, Warhammer IIc's and Hunchback IIc's do pose a much larger threat but not all clan second line units have access to them. In the lore it's stated a several times that Clan garrison clusters were seen fighting with Centurions and Trebuchets, mechs that have no IIc variant.

Edited by Franklen Avignon, 27 May 2012 - 08:06 PM.

[Arctic Fox]

Tincan Nightmare, on 27 May 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

The biggest problem I had with the lore, was how neurohelmets and mech piloting was explained. I'm not talking about the TT rules, but just the explanation on how mechwarriors drove their machines. Instead of the overly complicated design of manual controls like joysticks and foot pedals combined with a subconscious link to the mechs gyro, they should have just made it where the mech became an extension of the mechwarrior body once he/she donned their neurohelmet. Considering the complex activities and combinations of actions that mechs can perform, this would have simplified how mechwarriors could control a 20 to 100 ton monster to run, use jump jets, pick things up with fully articulated hands, fire different combinations of weapons, etc...

Of course it would have been easier, but the technology in the setting doesn't work like that. It is possible with EI and VDNI implants, but they require extensive surgery and have the nasty side effect of rapidly driving you insane and killing you.

Edited by Arctic Fox, 27 May 2012 - 08:07 PM.

[Scarlett Avignon]

Tincan Nightmare, on 27 May 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

The biggest problem I had with the lore, was how neurohelmets and mech piloting was explained. I'm not talking about the TT rules, but just the explanation on how mechwarriors drove their machines. Instead of the overly complicated design of manual controls like joysticks and foot pedals combined with a subconscious link to the mechs gyro, they should have just made it where the mech became an extension of the mechwarrior body once he/she donned their neurohelmet. Considering the complex activities and combinations of actions that mechs can perform, this would have simplified how mechwarriors could control a 20 to 100 ton monster to run, use jump jets, pick things up with fully articulated hands, fire different combinations of weapons, etc...

Well, simply speaking, neurohelmets just aren't that advanced. They can provide date to the mech concerning the pilot's sense of balance and general motions (moving the limbs) but not much more, it seems. There doesn't seem to be a high level of conscious control that the neurohelmet can give a human over a machine. All it is is a more advance human-machine interface. To get the kind of control that you are talking about, you have to undergo surgery to have enhanced imaging implants, and those have serious drawbacks.

[Madog]

Autocannons... They aren't really well thought out. A modern 120mm gun like the one on an M1A1 has a range of about 133 hexes. Double that with some of the more advanced munitions. Compare that to the AC/10's 20 hexs, or 600 meters. And the M1's gun can penetrate 22 inches of armor.

I would say that maybe they are using much larger shells because of changes in armor, but the books are quire clear that their calibers are the same range as ours today, from about 20mm to a bit over 200mm. So there's no reason ranges should be that much lower, unless they are aiming completely with iron sites.

It is a bit annoying to think that the 21st century US military could probably destroy all the mechs in the Inner Sphere.

(Aerospace fighters, OTOH, are pretty bad *** and would be next to invincible against modern militaries. Elementals would be pretty nasty too, against anything but an MBT.)

[Arctic Fox]

BattleTech's ranges are specifically only as low as they are for gameplay and aesthetic reasons (Because big stompy robot combat is meaningless at more than point blank range), and that in 'reality' they are much longer. If you play under the Extreme and LOS Range rules in TacOps then pretty much any but the shortest ranged weapons in the game are capable of firing to the horizon.

Edited by Arctic Fox, 27 May 2012 - 08:44 PM.

[Mechwarrior Of Rock]

That I can`t know anything about it unless I read novels about it or spend hours on the wiki.

[Madog]

CaveMan, on 27 May 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

Not sure that's justified really. I mean, yeah, the range thing there's no question about, but the 8.35kg penetrator at 1750 m/s? That's about 1/50 the impact energy of a Gauss rifle slug*. In other words about 0.3 damage. The GM Whirlwind AC/5 on the Marauder fires 3-round bursts of 120mm shells. Battletech armor is just insanely, mind-bogglingly efficient because (technobabble).

*8.35kg DM33 penetrator @ 1750m/s = 12.75MJ.

125kg Gauss rifle slug @ 3500m/s (twice the velocity of traditional cannons, as stated in BMR) = 765.25MJ

I can accept that armor advances may have made penetrating rounds less effective. And even HEAT rounds like the designs currently used.

But the Gauss rifle still raises the issue of range. It has a muzzel velocity twice that of 21st century guns that can fire rounds accurately 6x further?