23 replies to this topic

[Vlad Ward]

Post-Testing Update:

Vlad Ward, on 26 January 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Overall Conclusion: The Heat system as a whole is working as intended. Nothing was changed in this patch, and both perks are working properly. Heat Containment works differently than the community assumed, but does work.

After all this hullabaloo about ninja changes to the heat scale, I decided to run through a quick test to make sure everything's working the way it should be. Unfortunately, either I messed up something in my calculations (very possible), or something is most definitely not working properly.

Part 0: Experimental setup

For these tests I'm using an STK-3F with 22 DHS and Master level perks. The weapons involved are a set of 6 Medium Lasers.

Part 1: Theoretical Yield

An STK-3F with 22 Double Heat Sinks and Master level perks should have a Heat Capacity of:

[30 + (10 * 2) + (12 * 1.4)] * 1.20 = 80.16 h

Likewise, it should have a Heat Dissipation rate of:

[ (10 * -0.2) + (12 * -0.14) ] * 1.15 = -4.23 h/s

A salvo of 6 Medium Lasers generates 24 heat. Medium Lasers have a 4 second cycle time (1 second duration + 3 seconds recycle), and heat is dissipated normally during firing (ref: older experiments).

This should result in 24 - (4.23 * 4) = 7.08 excess heat per volley.

This means that it should take [ (80 - 24) / 7.08 ], or 8 volleys to build up enough excess heat to force a shutdown on the 9th shot.

Part 2: Experimental Yield

On Forest Colony, over multiple attempts, my STK-3F has consistently shut down on the 8th volley itself instead of the 9th. If my calculations are correct, firing the 8th volley should only bring my Mech's heat up to 73.56, well below my expected Heat Capacity.

Part 3: Potential Explanations

A) If the equation for Heat Capacity for DHS-equipped mechs is of the form [ (10 * 2) + (ChassisDHS * 1.4) ] * 1.2 + 30, I would end up with 74.16 Heat Capacity instead of 80.16. This somewhat fits with my experimental results, and would mean that the 30 Base Heat Capacity for all Mechs is unaffected by the Heat Containment perk.

B ) Medium Lasers are borked in some way, shape, or form again. It happens.

C) DHS don't give 2.0 Heat Capacity in the engine. This would result in [ 30 + (22 * 1.4) ] * 1.2 = 72.96 Heat Capacity and would most closely fit my results.

D) I screwed up somewhere.

Thoughts?

Math corrections?

Anything?

I really don't want the answer to be C.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 26 January 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[Bilbo]

I don't have the time to check your math, but:

Garth Erlam, on 25 January 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

I run energy builds, pretty much exclusively. My Cicada 2A takes x% heat per 3 laser 'group' to fire. If there was a change in heat, I'd notice it (as in, I would constantly overheat - check the twitch videos, I ride 95%+ in combat )

[Vlad Ward]

Bilbo, on 25 January 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

I don't have the time to check your math, but:

I haven't had any problems overheating either, and I'm not sure that anything changed in this patch in particular. More important than any of that is the fact that something isn't adding up.

The math for this game is fairly straightforward, and a discrepancy of this magnitude usually means something we think we know is wrong.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 25 January 2013 - 01:59 PM.

[Kousagi]

From what i heard a while ago, the two skills regarding heat don't really work... so try removing them both and see if your math matchs that first.

[Vlad Ward]

Kousagi, on 25 January 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

From what i heard a while ago, the two skills regarding heat don't really work... so try removing them both and see if your math matchs that first.

Every Mech I use is Mastered, but I'll see if I can make a throwaway build to test this on. I'll report back with those results shortly.

[Splinters]

I see the problem with the math, I believe you aren't taking into account the faster re-cycle time with the mech skill "Fast Fire" which reduces the recharge time of weapons, so most likely you are not firing at 4 seconds but something less and that is getting you to the max heat capacity of your mech in 8 volleys.

Good test to verify that the numbers make sense.

If we knew how much faster the weapons recycled (set time, percentage, other), then you will be all set to verify calculations vs reality.

-S

[Rizzelbizzeg]

I don't believe it's 'C.' If you put in an engine that has less than the 10 heat sinks and add external heat sinks until you get to 10 total, your heat efficiency (at least what's listed in the mechlab, assuming that's a correct figure) is lower than if you just had an engine that has all 10 sinks with no externals. If the engine sinks matched the external ones, your heat efficiency would be the same no matter where you had 10.

To test the mechlab figures you could count how many alphas you can make with the same number of heat sinks but distributed differently via different counts in the engine or out.

[Vlad Ward]

Splinters, on 25 January 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

I see the problem with the math, I believe you aren't taking into account the faster re-cycle time with the mech skill "Fast Fire" which reduces the recharge time of weapons, so most likely you are not firing at 4 seconds but something less and that is getting you to the max heat capacity of your mech in 8 volleys.

Good test to verify that the numbers make sense.

If we knew how much faster the weapons recycled (set time, percentage, other), then you will be all set to verify calculations vs reality.

-S

Fast Fire!

Ah, thank you. I'll re run the numbers with that.

If it's working as intended and reducing recycle time by 5%, that should bring the overall cycle time of the medium laser down to 3.85 seconds. On a 3.85 second cycle, with -4.23 h/s, that should result in 7.71 excess heat per volley.

At that rate, it should still take 8 volleys (7.28 has to round up) to reach overheat threshold, for 9 shots total. Hm. That's not it.

On the bright side, testing with a no-perk HBK-4P with 20DHS and 6MLs is yielding expected results to the tee.

It must be something up with Heat Containment or Cool Run, then.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 25 January 2013 - 02:21 PM.

[Biglead]

Any update on this?

[Vlad Ward]

Testing has ruled out B and C. A and D are still up in the air.

Any thoughts on ways to isolate problems with Heat Containment and/or Coolrun?

Likewise, any thoughts as to what might be wrong with either/both?

[Biglead]

Vlad Ward, on 25 January 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Testing has ruled out B and C. A and D are still up in the air.

Any thoughts on ways to isolate problems with Heat Containment and/or Coolrun?

Likewise, any thoughts as to what might be wrong with either/both?

None, but I did find this.

Garth Erlam, on 25 January 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

We haven't touched heat, nor latent heat, at all.

[Vlad Ward]

Biglead, on 25 January 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

None, but I did find this.

I can't say whether or not these discrepancies are a result of this patch. I've been doing all of my testing on Forest Colony and River City to eliminate the effects of ambient temperature, so the weather update a couple patches ago shouldn't be an issue.

It's quite possible that this is a long-standing issue with those perks.

[Grimlox]

Maybe test the same mech with same loadout after heat eff and cool run to confirm.

[Deamhan]

I don't know where this double heat sinks having a 2.0 value in the engines came about but I'm pretty sure it's wrong. Standard heat sinks offer 1.0 point per and reduce heat at -.1 / sec. Double offers 1.4 and -.14 / sec.

It is spot on to what I see in game.

[Biglead]

Deamhan, on 25 January 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

I don't know where this double heat sinks having a 2.0 value in the engines came about but I'm pretty sure it's wrong. Standard heat sinks offer 1.0 point per and reduce heat at -.1 / sec. Double offers 1.4 and -.14 / sec.

It is spot on to what I see in game.

That's only true when they are placed outside of an engine. When inside they should function at -.2.

Edited by Biglead, 25 January 2013 - 04:32 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Biglead, on 25 January 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

That's only true when they are placed outside of an engine. When inside they should function at -.2.

^ I can confirm that DHS do function at 2.0 values when they come with the engine. I'll grind up some EXP on my hunchback and see if I can isolate these issues to one of the perks.

[MrPils]

Just wanted to throw my voice in and say that there is definitely something up. My 4 PPC stalker now shuts down on its second alpha while stationary in caustic whereas before the patch I could alpha twice on the run. Thats with 10+1+6 DHS mastered.

Thinking bout what Vlad has suggested regards coolrun and containment it does seem inline with what I remember of the build when I first bought it. I would be inclined to look at containment as I now seem to return to 0% faster than before, anecdotal though.

[Vlad Ward]

Testing so far:

With an HBK-4P, 20 DHS, 6 MLs, Heat Containment unlocked

With Heat Containment, my total Heat Capacity should be:

[ 30 + (10 * 2) + (12 * 1.4) ] * 1.10 = 70.4

If Scenario A is the case, my Heat Capacity would be:

[ (10 * 2) + (12 * 1.4) ] * 1.10 + 30 = 67.4

Heat Dissipation remains the same, with 10.4 excess heat per 6ML volley.

Using the firing pattern 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 4, I should end up with 68 heat, shutting me down if Scenario A is true, but leaving me with a couple % to spare if it isn't.

Test Results: No Shutdown. Scenario A has been ruled out.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 25 January 2013 - 05:09 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Update: Oops!

I forgot to account for heat being dissipated during the 1s duration of the laser on the last volley.

In reality, a 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 4 firing pattern would result in only 64.6 heat.

Re-doing tests with a 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 5 pattern, which should actually generate 68.6 heat.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 25 January 2013 - 05:09 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Okay. This time, I did get a Shutdown on 68.6 heat. This means that, unless I screwed up the math somewhere, the Heat Containment equation is of the form:

(Heat Sinks * Heat Containment modifier) + 30 for SHS

and

[ (EHS * 2.0) + (DHS * 1.4) ] * Heat Containment modifier + 30 for DHS

Essentially, this means the 30 Base Heat Containment that every Mech gets is not affected by Perks.

Please feel free to comment on experimental setup and point out any issues you come across.

I have not currently tested Coolrun because Mechs are expensive and I don't want to pollute the test with a Mech that already has Heat Containment. I don't really have any theories as to how Coolrun might be acting up anyways, so anyone with any thoughts along those lines please speak up!