53 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Serapth, on 25 January 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

Yes, but if you premade all the time, your stats will be inflated beyond your actual skill. So when you dont have the crutch of a group, you are going to play with people substantially more talented than you. ( Other of course that is, than the most talented member of the premade )

Not necessarily true, My team has players better than Me so I will actually lower their score while they will have me fighting above my level. SO I probably will get better faster than if I was playing on a level playing field.

[Greyfyl]

Vlad Ward, on 25 January 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

This thread is quickly devolving into a total sh*thole, like every other thread on this topic.

The original point was that premade groups who are playing in the 4-man queue aren't going to be totally screwed over by ELO because they generally don't take advantage of their voice comms anyways.

Otherwise, all I'm getting from this is that being good at the game is OP and needs to be nerfed. Good players should just not play unless they're in an 8-man because they ruin the game for everyone and everything and probably punched holes in the ozone layer, too.

Just answer the simple question I asked you 10 posts ago and it would never have devolved.

Would the average match involving 4man premades be more competitive if there were 4 mans on both teams as opposed to being only on one team? Yes or No? It's really a simple question that you refuse to answer.

Nobody is trying to take away your priveledge of being good at the game, we simply don't want you adding a stacked deck to game. By going in with 3 other good players on your team the deck is already stacked regardless of being on TS or not. Phase 3 will hopefully address this if PGI gets it right and make the changes to make sure you HAVE to play against equally skilled opponents instead of trolling us losers.

[Vlad Ward]

Greyfyl, on 25 January 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Just answer the simple question I asked you 10 posts ago and it would never have devolved.

Would the average match involving 4man premades be more competitive if there were 4 mans on both teams as opposed to being only on one team? Yes or No? It's really a simple question that you refuse to answer.

Nobody is trying to take away your priveledge of being good at the game, we simply don't want you adding a stacked deck to game. By going in with 3 other good players on your team the deck is already stacked regardless of being on TS or not. Phase 3 will hopefully address this if PGI gets it right and make the changes to make sure you HAVE to play against equally skilled opponents instead of trolling us losers.

Uh, duh. Of course that might be more fun. But it's a real waste of development time when they already have ELO in the pipes. If you have a few servers sitting around with all of this code just ready to flash over to their hardware, you should shoot Russ an email or something.

Otherwise, it's just a waste of time wondering about it.

[Kurshuk]

OK guys, he didn't ask to debat whether or not premades were causing issues, he asked if there is a plan in place to correct some of the unbalanced matches where one team has a clear advantage over the other. I run pug about 90% of my games. I have a life, I have responsibilities, I don't have 2 hours a night to devote to something that doesn't provide income. So I get 10-15 minutes at a time that I drop a pug or two. Every once in a while I'll do continuous drops as a 4 man premade and we do rock the house. I've gone through 10-20-30 game winning streaks when I do that.

Those that take the argument that dropping premade with voice chat doesn't give you an advantage over people who have to give up control of their mech to communicate clearly do not understand tactical movement and coordination. I would say my odds of winning a match go from about 40% up to about 85-90% when I premade. I see that as an advantage. If you don't then I will be unable to convince you.

To the original question: Yes, matchmaking is a work in progress. It used to be full 8 man premades crashing through, they cut the limit in half, but I know for a fact a lot of groups regularly sync-drop with a fair amount of success. So sometimes you're still facing 8 people who are able to communicate information about their damage levels, who they're targeting, mechs they see, help they need. I don't know about you but I can talk upwards of 120 words a minute. I'm a fast typist, but even typing very quickly it's only 80-90 words a minute. In addition I can key up my mic and shout out orders at a breakneck pace while turning, stopping the mech and moving into reverse, traversing the torso, firing on multiple targets and changing speed and direction again. While typing I can't do any of that, both hands are on the keyboard. So 4 people that can do that can win a match almost every time. In an 8 person group I think we lost 1 or 2 games ever. So you're not crazy when you think that having voice chat gives an extreme advantage.

TLDR: I'm a premade and I know voice chat gives me an advantage over pugs. Yes, the devs are working on matchmaking to get more of the even battles with losses on both sides.

Kurshuk

[Greyfyl]

Vlad Ward, on 25 January 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

Uh, duh. Of course that might be more fun. But it's a real waste of development time when they already have ELO in the pipes. If you have a few servers sitting around with all of this code just ready to flash over to their hardware, you should shoot Russ an email or something.

Otherwise, it's just a waste of time wondering about it.

Why can't ELO and putting a premade on both teams go hand-in-hand (for all I know maybe it already does). And why would it ever be a waste of development time to put something into place that make better, more evenly matched games? Isn't that the goal of ELO as well?

So again you have deflected the question to suit your preference to be able to pugstomp. Now it's not a matter of whether or not it would make better matches, now it's about resources and development time.

There is always an excuse for not having an even playing field, it is simply a beautiful thing to see.

[Greyfyl]

Kurshuk, on 25 January 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

OK guys, he didn't ask to debat whether or not premades were causing issues, he asked if there is a plan in place to correct some of the unbalanced matches where one team has a clear advantage over the other. I run pug about 90% of my games. I have a life, I have responsibilities, I don't have 2 hours a night to devote to something that doesn't provide income. So I get 10-15 minutes at a time that I drop a pug or two. Every once in a while I'll do continuous drops as a 4 man premade and we do rock the house. I've gone through 10-20-30 game winning streaks when I do that.

Those that take the argument that dropping premade with voice chat doesn't give you an advantage over people who have to give up control of their mech to communicate clearly do not understand tactical movement and coordination. I would say my odds of winning a match go from about 40% up to about 85-90% when I premade. I see that as an advantage. If you don't then I will be unable to convince you.

To the original question: Yes, matchmaking is a work in progress. It used to be full 8 man premades crashing through, they cut the limit in half, but I know for a fact a lot of groups regularly sync-drop with a fair amount of success. So sometimes you're still facing 8 people who are able to communicate information about their damage levels, who they're targeting, mechs they see, help they need. I don't know about you but I can talk upwards of 120 words a minute. I'm a fast typist, but even typing very quickly it's only 80-90 words a minute. In addition I can key up my mic and shout out orders at a breakneck pace while turning, stopping the mech and moving into reverse, traversing the torso, firing on multiple targets and changing speed and direction again. While typing I can't do any of that, both hands are on the keyboard. So 4 people that can do that can win a match almost every time. In an 8 person group I think we lost 1 or 2 games ever. So you're not crazy when you think that having voice chat gives an extreme advantage.

TLDR: I'm a premade and I know voice chat gives me an advantage over pugs. Yes, the devs are working on matchmaking to get more of the even battles with losses on both sides.

Kurshuk

But yet a large percentage of the premade community will not admit that they are playing with a huge advantage, simply because they don't want to see it taken away.

I like doing premades when I have the time, it is fun having people to BS with while you play. Why some people think that it should come with some inherent advantage is what is beyond me. The word 'entitled' gets thrown around alot nowdays, I think it applies here.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

Vlad Ward, on 25 January 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

Putting 2-4 good players on the same side of a match is already more than sufficient to wade into the other team's random 8 and kill everyone without losing a limb in the vast majority of games.

Don't forget the cheese builds. Premades would be nothing without their SRM cats, LRM boat Stalkers, Raven 3Ls and Atlas DDcs.

[One Medic Army]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 25 January 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

Don't forget the cheese builds. Premades would be nothing without their SRM cats, LRM boat Stalkers, Raven 3Ls and Atlas DDcs.

Only some do that. Most of my friends don't do anything cheesier than a dual-gauss Cataphract, and even then they tend to feel bad about it.

[Vlad Ward]

Greyfyl, on 25 January 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

There is always an excuse for not having an even playing field, it is simply a beautiful thing to see.

I didn't want to bring up the added hassle of increased queue times for everyone while the matchmaker sits around trying to mirror both Weight class and group composition for both sides of a match, but you're just being nasty at this point.

[Serapth]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 January 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

Not necessarily true, My team has players better than Me so I will actually lower their score while they will have me fighting above my level. SO I probably will get better faster than if I was playing on a level playing field.

No, this is exactly what I mean.

See, you ( as you admit, I dont know how you play ) are being carried by better players on your team. Therefore your stats are from when you play in a team environment being supported by your teammates. Therefore when you PUG under ELO, your stats will show you as a more capable player than you actually are, so you will get match against PUGs of a higher calibre than you actually are.


I am just using as an example btw...

Kurshuk, on 25 January 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

TLDR: I'm a premade and I know voice chat gives me an advantage over pugs. Yes, the devs are working on matchmaking to get more of the even battles with losses on both sides.

Kurshuk

Full circle, but no they arent. Nothing about the matchmaker changes or ELO that has been announced factors in the advantages premades get.

It wont be as bad as it is now, as you wont be partnered with players vastly above or below your talent level, so this should keep absolute beginners together, etc... But there is nothing in the upcoming changes about balancing premades across each side.

[Livebait]

The REAL advantage to a pre-made 4 man drop, you have less of a chance getting stuck with an asshat team killer or griefer. That really is it.

[Vlad Ward]

Livebait, on 25 January 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

The REAL advantage to a pre-made 4 man drop, you have less of a chance getting stuck with an asshat team killer or griefer. That really is it.

^

Anyone who tells you otherwise has either never actually played in a premade, or is seriously underestimating either themselves or the players on their team.

The gameplay difference stems more from the fact that veteran Mechwarrior players who have played online before (or have played MWO for a few months now) are likely to be in groups while totally new players who have never seen an Atlas before are more likely to be solo.

More good players in premades means more premade players are likely to be good, resulting in total lockouts against less experienced players. The voice comms don't really add much.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 25 January 2013 - 05:26 PM.

[Serapth]

Livebait, on 25 January 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

The REAL advantage to a pre-made 4 man drop, you have less of a chance getting stuck with an asshat team killer or griefer. That really is it.

Plus of course instant comms, (potential) advanced knowledge of your teammates loadouts, which in todays game is HUGE. At the very least if you LRM boat, you can guarantee a tagger and an ECM mech.

... of course, no premades work together, they are all drunk, never have advanced knowledge of each others mechs or tactics, blah blah blah...

So, nutshell:

- get to pick up to 3 teammates, meaning 3 spots less likely to contain a suicider, TKer or some guy in a trial mech.
- ability to take specialty mechs without concern that you wont have ECM, TAG, etc...
- ability to really cheese, like 4x D-DC, 4xSRM6Cats, 4XECM Ravens, etc...
- instant communication compared against the horrid in game texting
- focused fire ( see above ). Single biggest advantage, as focused fire == win.
- pregame/postgame communication
- prearranged tactics...


Um... is that about it? I mean sure... none of those are an easymode advantage... no sirrrrrreeee.

Edited by Serapth, 25 January 2013 - 05:27 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

The long and short of it is that you seem to think premades care about winning a lot more than they actually do.

[Serapth]

Vlad Ward, on 25 January 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

^

Anyone who tells you otherwise has either never actually played in a premade, or is seriously underestimating either themselves or the players on their team.

The gameplay difference stems more from the fact that veteran Mechwarrior players who have played online before (or have played MWO for a few months now) are likely to be in groups while totally new players who have never seen an Atlas before are more likely to be solo.

More good players in premades means more premade players are likely to be good, resulting in total lockouts against less experienced players. The voice comms don't really add much.

You have never once pugged have you?

Or you have, you know the easy mode you have, are afraid of 8man matches and are desperately clinging to the advantage you have.

You would think the truly talented would want a working matchmaker, so they could demonstrate their skill, as opposed to hiding behind a crutch. Terrified to discover its not actually skill?

Vlad Ward, on 25 January 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

The long and short of it is that you seem to think premades care about winning a lot more than they actually do.

I love the sweeping generalizations.

Had I not encountered hordes of 4xECM Ravens over the last month, I might maybe just maybe think these people are scarce.

[Livebait]

I pug drop all the time and there really is no great difference I have seen with my score at the end. I've been in since close beta. The only real difference is griefers. I see them every few games when I pug. So, you have just taken at least 2 players out of play when this happens. You may not see it but from where you are at but trust me. Asshaters are a bigger problem then pre-made 4mans.

[Vlad Ward]

Serapth, on 25 January 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

You have never once pugged have you?

Or you have, you know the easy mode you have, are afraid of 8man matches and are desperately clinging to the advantage you have.

You would think the truly talented would want a working matchmaker, so they could demonstrate their skill, as opposed to hiding behind a crutch. Terrified to discover its not actually skill?

I love the sweeping generalizations.

Had I not encountered hordes of 4xECM Ravens over the last month, I might maybe just maybe think these people are scarce.

I PUG all the time and play 8-mans every time we have 8 or more people online, which is fairly often. ECM ravens aren't scary. Cheese in general isn't scary. The more you blame other people for your failures, the less likely you are to learn from them.

[NocturnalBeast]

The inclusion of in-game VOIP, will do allot to reduce some of the advantage the premades have over pugs. More often than not, there are partial premades on both sides in any given match. Some players really are just better.

[Bguk]

Serapth, on 25 January 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

I love the sweeping generalizations.

Had I not encountered hordes of 4xECM Ravens over the last month, I might maybe just maybe think these people are scarce.

Both sides have been doing it so take a step down please.

The original question was whether something was being done about balancing. It is. Your score will determine who you are pitted against. If you strictly premade and you "stomp", as they say, they should be matched against other "stompers". Just like "window lickers", as they say, will be matched with other "window lickers". Any system will eventually be gamed by some so it will not be perfect. Life is not perfect.

[Serapth]

Bguk, on 25 January 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

Both sides have been doing it so take a step down please.

The original question was whether something was being done about balancing. It is. Your score will determine who you are pitted against. If you strictly premade and you "stomp", as they say, they should be matched against other "stompers". Just like "window lickers", as they say, will be matched with other "window lickers". Any system will eventually be gamed by some so it will not be perfect. Life is not perfect.

No, I feel no need to take it down. You may notice the thread was quite civil until someone turned it toxic... hint, it wasnt me, it wasnt Grey and you liked his post.

Then again, you always like the one sides posts, then try to take moral high ground on the other side... the side that, unlike you, is currently getting screwed.

So no.