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A Forewarning To Pgi...(Not A Threat, Just A 'look Out!' Friendly Warning...


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#1 Tice Daurus

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:03 PM

I was playing Planetside 2 tonight.

GASP! Yes I know I was playing another game besides MW:O. Sacrilidge, I know. Tonight they had a capture the map game.

Now I know, how does this relate to Mechwarrior: Online? Bear with me, this might be a bit long, but I promise I'll get to my point.

The problems were that as usual, the Goons had their team on there and they were dominating the game. Not only were they using their forces, but they were logging on to other forces teams and then placing blocks in entrance doorways for the launching points to keep other teams stalled so they could get an unfair advantage. But the worst...was that their servers couldn't handle the MASSIVE amount of people on there, causing for incredible lag problems. There were 1 hour wait times to jump from one area to the next. It was brutally bad.

Now, granted, the GOONS were not the problem. The problem...the lack of server space. They had SOOOOOOO many people on there for this event, the servers could not handle the massive amounts of changes from teams, massively LARGE teams moving from one area to the next. It was TERRIBLE. Now...how does that apply to MW:O?

Simple. My fear is that I do not believe that one server will be able to handle one area for Community Warfare. You'd have to have the best and most expensive blade servers out there all interwoven together. AND then, you're going to have to somehow tie those servers into other servers across the globe to handle massive Inner Sphere changes. Oh sure, I know right now you guys are going to be starting small, with only about 100 worlds or so that will be able to change hands. But each world is going to be massive, and each world will have hundreds of forces fighting on one world. Tie it all in that they will be all interwoven, and it's going to be pure CHAOS.

My problem is say you get a force from South Korean players attacking a force in the US or the UK. It's going to be hell trying to get those two forces to fight together and then get the proper results without massive lag interfereance, PLUS be capable of handling a sudden massive rush of other players joining in to create serveral THOUSAND people or more on ONE SERVER world.

The reason why I'm pointing this out is because I work in the Telecom industry and I've also worked in Data Center hubs.

You are absolutely going to need TOP of the line servers to handle this. I'm warning you guys in advance of what to expect because I know. I've got 15+ years of experience to back it up and know what I'm talking about.

Look, I'm not going to ask for specifics of how your system works. That's IGP's department, and I'm leaving that between you and them. What I am saying is whatever deal you have with IGP...if this sucker takes off, like you and I expect it will, and we've done the server stress tests, whatever you might THINK is acceptable, give yourself a buffer zone. If you think you need say, hypothetically 400 servers, add at least 25 percent more for mass overflow for major events. Because when they come into play, ESPECIALLY for Community Warfare hits, you guys are going to NEED the extra servers that can handle the capacity. Or else people are going to do what they did in Planetside 2 did tonight. A TON of people from one side...they just UP and QUIT out of frustration. They left. Like I did.

Anyway, I'm going to be taking this and posting this also on the General Discussion boards, but I wanted to put this out there to FOREWARN you guys that you are going to HAVE to be prepared for the massive crush of people that will be playing when Community Warfare hits the game.

You've been told. It's not a threat. It's a forewarning to keep PGI from making the same mistakes that Sony made tonight. And I'm not trying to post this to be a dbag or try and hurt PGI. That's not my intent. My intent is to get you guys at PGI to listen so you know to watch out for this and try and cut this in the bud AHEAD of time. The old saying stands...

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of CURE.

Thanks.

Edited by Tice Daurus, 25 January 2013 - 08:15 PM.


#2 acemarke

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:14 PM

Based on the initial description of how Community Warfare is planned, I don't think MWO will face the same kinds of issues you described. Rather than having hundreds of individual mechs tromping around a planet's surface, the CW dev blog made it sound as if it's more of a "Davion and Kurita are fighting on Planet X, so a series of drops are scheduled for there" kind of thing. IE, same setup we have now, just that the match results are used for something more.

Of course, I could be misinterpreting the post, and the final CW implementation can and will probably be different than the initial description, but I don't think the specific scenario you described is as likely to be an issue here.

#3 Tennex

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:19 PM

ah the problems of success

#4 Tice Daurus

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:23 PM

View Postacemarke, on 25 January 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

Based on the initial description of how Community Warfare is planned, I don't think MWO will face the same kinds of issues you described. Rather than having hundreds of individual mechs tromping around a planet's surface, the CW dev blog made it sound as if it's more of a "Davion and Kurita are fighting on Planet X, so a series of drops are scheduled for there" kind of thing. IE, same setup we have now, just that the match results are used for something more.

Of course, I could be misinterpreting the post, and the final CW implementation can and will probably be different than the initial description, but I don't think the specific scenario you described is as likely to be an issue here.


I hope your right. As of right now, we don't have specifics on how Community Warfare will be played out in the game for say the conquest of one world. But what happens if say you have a large merc group controlling ONE world. Then you end up getting the GOONS make an organized assault on that one world with two thousand people all bringing mechs in? And then say that large merc group calls in reinforcements from IT'S allies? You could possibly have serveral thousand mechs in one server area. Can the server handle that type of stress? I don't think so. When we did server tests earlier, it got up to about 3000 before it got bad. So what happens when you get several thousand all rushing on one server to attack and defend a single world or area?

YOU KNOW that's going to happen. It's inevitable.

#5 Inconspicuous

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:23 PM

I think CW will just be some 12v12 matches. I doubt the server overloading will be as intense for this game.

But who knows...?

#6 Thirdstar

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:24 PM

Realistically speaking most gaming companies rarely build their servers to handle the very highest peak loads. It doesn't make financial sense, the peak is not consistent and the nature of online gaming means every peak will die, sooner rather than later.

Then you're left with unused capacity and the overheads that go with it for no perceivable profit.

#7 Tuku

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:25 PM

EvE is a single server that handles thousands in the same area at the same time fairly well. Lag is a problem in any large game that allows lots of people to play on the internet. It is going to happen.

#8 Inconspicuous

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:25 PM

View PostTice Daurus, on 25 January 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:


I hope your right. As of right now, we don't have specifics on how Community Warfare will be played out in the game for say the conquest of one world. But what happens if say you have a large merc group controlling ONE world. Then you end up getting the GOONS make an organized assault on that one world with two thousand people all bringing mechs in? And then say that large merc group calls in reinforcements from IT'S allies? You could possibly have serveral thousand mechs in one server area. Can the server handle that type of stress? I don't think so. When we did server tests earlier, it got up to about 3000 before it got bad. So what happens when you get several thousand all rushing on one server to attack and defend a single world or area?

YOU KNOW that's going to happen. It's inevitable.


I think CW will not be setup like that, I imagine it will just be some ranked matches and not some massive MMO style setup.

#9 GalaxyBluestar

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:29 PM

whether it's possible or not and it will be a case for future CW the op's made a very intelligent point about how player behavior is involved around the kind of warfare PGI wants to implement for MWO. it's a very good warning and i think we'll see many more double xp events and the like to continually monitor the server stress and what will be necessary for the main operation aspects of this game. i don't know how planet invasions will be handled by servers or game modes etc but it must be planed carefully keeping in mind how a player base wants to play {enmass attack or whatever} and what are the limits to pgi's infrastructure.

in short don't overstretch yourselves with grandious game concepts until you are dead sure you can handle it.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 25 January 2013 - 08:30 PM.


#10 Thirdstar

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:30 PM

View PostInconspicuous, on 25 January 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

I think CW will not be setup like that, I imagine it will just be some ranked matches and not some massive MMO style setup.


There's going to be a LOT of disappointed mechwarriors when CW does roll around. Please have realistic expectations guys and I don't mean that as a bash on PGI.

#11 Dukarriope

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:32 PM

And I still don't know what people mean when they talk about Goons here...

#12 Prophet of Entropy

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:34 PM

the problem PS2 and EVE have with large numbers and lag is a. open world b. no intancing/sharding

these problems are pretty easy to avoid with CW, extra server load at peak times is something they will have to watch for CW.

Edited by Prophet of Entropy, 25 January 2013 - 08:35 PM.


#13 Tice Daurus

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:37 PM

And I do see what some of you are trying to say. Right now...it's kind of speculation because I could be TOTALLY wrong as to how CW is going to break down and they could do something completely different. However, my point is this...PGI absolutely needs to heed my warning. Even if they do it completely different than how I might have it planned, they still need the server space to handle mass battles in order to deal with stress. Just seeing tonight what the GOONS and their ally forces did to the servers, they totally overwhelmed them to massive amounts of stress to where you couldn't move from one area to the next and there was an hour wait to log into the next area. From there, massive amounts of people on our side just whined and complained about the servers being unable to handle the stress so they just up and left the game.

And just to be straight here, I'm not blaming the problems on the GOONS or the other forces which were on their side. The problem wasn't with the their side. The problem was the lack of servers to handle the massive amounts of stress.

Edited by Tice Daurus, 25 January 2013 - 08:39 PM.


#14 Ravn

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:45 PM

I just hope the CW doesn't playout like XBOX's chromehounds. Many many folks battling over one location to get to the next. It made your efforts seem meaningless.

Also Goons are the lovely folks who "Squaaaaaaaaaaaaaak" at the beginning of matches. They don't cheat, but they are certainly not known for playing fair. They pride themselves in learning and exploiting weaknesses in both game structures and social structures to win. Thus far, they have had a very nul impact on MWO.

#15 Elkfire

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:46 PM

View PostDukarriope, on 25 January 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

And I still don't know what people mean when they talk about Goons here...

Members of the Something Awful forums that are notorious for being unusually proud and dedicated trolls, as illustrated by the OP's Planetside 2 example. They have a pretty strong presence in a lot of online games. I'll let you formulate your own opinion on them (as they play this game as well and frequent these forums), but just be forewarned that they are unquestionably fond of messing with people.

Edited by Elkfire, 25 January 2013 - 08:48 PM.


#16 Silent

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:50 PM

That's the nature of the beast.

#17 Scraper

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:53 PM

View PostTuku, on 25 January 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

EvE is a single server that handles thousands in the same area at the same time fairly well. Lag is a problem in any large game that allows lots of people to play on the internet. It is going to happen.


EVE is NOT a single server, it's only one server in name. There are multiple racks handling the traffic, likely by system, but I'd be surprised if heavy traffic areas weren't handled by multiple servers... if the JITA lag is gone (it's been a while for me) then they split the load.

*EDIT* To the OP, I don't think server load will ever be an issue as was said above 12v12 is the current goal. Even with 20v20 it wouldn't be too much of an issue as long as they have multiple servers. If anything, it's easier for a game like this to deal with massive numbers since the action is taking place in such small numbers.

Edited by Scraper, 25 January 2013 - 08:55 PM.


#18 Moromillas

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:53 PM

Hmm... No, I don't agree. Opening more servers just as a backup for what might happen is a bad idea. There's a chance it could just be waste of resources, and I don't think decisions should be made on chance. In a beta environment, you're supposed to encounter all sorts of problems, not a good idea to come up with fixes ahead of time, it may not be the best or ideal solution.

#19 Thirdstar

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:58 PM

View PostTice Daurus, on 25 January 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

And I do see what some of you are trying to say. Right now...it's kind of speculation because I could be TOTALLY wrong as to how CW is going to break down and they could do something completely different. However, my point is this...PGI absolutely needs to heed my warning. Even if they do it completely different than how I might have it planned, they still need the server space to handle mass battles in order to deal with stress. Just seeing tonight what the GOONS and their ally forces did to the servers, they totally overwhelmed them to massive amounts of stress to where you couldn't move from one area to the next and there was an hour wait to log into the next area. From there, massive amounts of people on our side just whined and complained about the servers being unable to handle the stress so they just up and left the game.

And just to be straight here, I'm not blaming the problems on the GOONS or the other forces which were on their side. The problem wasn't with the their side. The problem was the lack of servers to handle the massive amounts of stress.


Probably missed my post.

Realistically speaking most gaming companies rarely build their servers to handle the very highest peak loads. It doesn't make financial sense, the peak is not consistent and the nature of online gaming means every peak will die, sooner rather than later.

Then you're left with unused capacity and the overheads that go with it for no perceivable profit.

#20 Rokuzachi

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:14 PM

As much as I'd love a huge map with mech bays to resupply/repair in that was persistent and you could just stomp around on to your hearts content...

I'm guessing CW will be like am improved, more in-depth version of WoT's clan wars - matches fought that decide territory (planet) capture.

Edit: Also, +1 for Planetside 2! What an amazing thing they managed to pull off. So much fun.

Edited by Rokuzachi, 25 January 2013 - 09:19 PM.




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