78 replies to this topic

[CancR]

ECM will only:
-Negate external electronics (Narc,begal, and tag)
-iIncrease lock-on time (perhaps by 2.5 seconds)
-Have a jamming feature will any amount of other ecm with the radius are jammed.

Simply back to tt basics.

SSRMS
-increase lock on time by 1.5 seconds
-Decrease damage from 2.5 to 2
-Streaks cant fire unless the crosshairs are over the target
-streaks lose their lock if anything ether comes between the cross hairs and the targets or the crosshairs move off the target (The mech, not the very large indicator box)

A very simple tweak to really put the game back on track. How ironic that the simple solution was the table top solution all along.

[Theobald Hauser]

That's no TT basics.

[CancR]

Amarius, on 26 January 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

That's no TT basics.

Like you know anything about any of the table top or even previous mech warrior games.

Its funny because you proved you don't.

[Theobald Hauser]

Of course... ^^
Denial, again.
That's not in TT.
TT hasn't reticules, as far as I know.
ECM doesn't take TAG away.
SSRMs have same damages than SRMs.
The two of them have same rof.
Ad so on.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/SRM
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ECM

[Redacted]

And of course, by advocating changes that are against the dev team goals (mainly, the ECM effects that won't change, regardless of whining, as it has been said), you want to do what ? Some lobby to force them to change the game your way ?

Edited by Egomane, 29 January 2013 - 03:01 AM.
Removed an offensive line

[Sasuga]

CancR, on 26 January 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

Like you know anything about any of the table top or even previous mech warrior games.

Its funny because you proved you don't.

As mentioned in another post, trying to balance this game by using table-top rules alone won't work. So I'm not arguing in favor of or against table top rules here. I just think the truth should be in this thread, and since CancR was a jerk, it just happens to help highlight his stupidity and/or ignorance.

According to Page 121 of the Battletech Compendium Fourth Edition by FASA out of Chicago, IL:

"Streak Short-Range Missiles
Before the streak can be fired, it must have a lock on its target. ... If successful, the player may immediately fire his Streak SRMs at the locked-on target. All SRMs automatically hit, and the player rolls as normal to determine the hit locations. If the player fails to achieve a lock, he does not fire the SRMs and does not build up any heat. A player must roll for a lock each turn, even if he had achieved a lock on the target in the previous turn."

Reading that, I think the current system is the old-school or "basics". Because in the Table-Top rules a player is able to achieve a lock and choose not to fire them, which you can do right now in this game. It also states that all missile hit, which your cross-hairs method would not have.

It states a player much achieve a lock first and can not fire without a lock, which is exactly how it works in MWO right now.

Edited by Sasuga, 26 January 2013 - 02:21 PM.

[CancR]

Sasuga, on 26 January 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

Reading that, I think the current system is the old-school or "basics". Because in the Table-Top rules a player is able to achieve a lock and choose not to fire them, which you can do right now in this game. It also states that all missile hit, which your cross-hairs method would not have.

It states a player much achieve a lock first and can not fire without a lock, which is exactly how it works in MWO right now.

What non-players fail to realize though, is that
1) You still have to roll to hit with streak missiles in battle tech. If you fail to make the hit as normal then you didn't get the target lock, and unlike any other weapon no heat is expended and no ammo consumed.
2)You still have to face the mech to be able to roll to hit. This is difficult to explain to non BT players but basically all mechs share a small front arc no matter where the weapons are mounted and you have to use your movement time to make sure you can use the torso twist phase before the shooting phase to make sure you can use your one face change to put enemies in that front arc (which is almost exactly like aiming at an enemy in the videogame MW. A near translation can be 1:1 in this regard as they are the same exact mechanics expressed in a different medium. A true 1:1 translation.

[Sasuga]

CancR, on 26 January 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

What non-players fail to realize though, is that
1) You still have to roll to hit with streak missiles in battle tech. If you fail to make the hit as normal then you didn't get the target lock, and unlike any other weapon no heat is expended and no ammo consumed.
2)You still have to face the mech to be able to roll to hit. This is difficult to explain to non BT players but basically all mechs share a small front arc no matter where the weapons are mounted and you have to use your movement time to make sure you can use the torso twist phase before the shooting phase to make sure you can use your one face change to put enemies in that front arc (which is almost exactly like aiming at an enemy in the videogame MW. A near translation can be 1:1 in this regard as they are the same exact mechanics expressed in a different medium. A true 1:1 translation.

1. Aiming at the target in MWO for the time it takes to achieve a lock is like rolling to lock in table top.
2. If you turn your back on an enemy that you have a lock on in MWO you will lose the lock.
3. This MWO is a real-time, FPS-style, game with the goal of giving the players an enjoyable experience and with different advantages and disadvantages than table-top.

If you really wanted to argue about something: I fired Streak SRMs at a target that I had achieved a lock with, and more than half my missiles hit a building as the guy dodged behind it! That totally breaks the "All Missiles Hit" rule of table-top. However, not only do I not complain about that happening (just stating that it happened here, not a complaint - to cut you off at that pass) I am actually glad that it can and did happen for more reasons than I'll list here: 1. It means I can do the same thing (which also happens to me means its fair for all). 2. Its a more realistic look, its what would happen with the type of technology represented in the game. The missiles were out of the tube, something just got between them and their target faster than they could maneuver. 3. It is what I expect to happen, even if it does go against the old-school rules.

Edited by Sasuga, 26 January 2013 - 02:44 PM.

[Theobald Hauser]

Nicely said Sasuga.

CancR, just read. Everyone is proving that you are making things up. Insulting me won't change a thing.



PS: Hey Sasuga, I'm jealous, he's polite with you !
PPS: To Sasuga - I would be interested in some critics of yours about the things in my sig, if you have time, even for the fun of gamedesign only.

[Codejack]

I think you're leaving ECM too powerful and nerfing SSRMs for no reason.

ECM should:

-Decrease detection range by 50% (400m)
-increase lock-on time by 100%
-Counter the bonuses provided by NARC and Artemis
-Prevent information sharing from mechs inside the bubble

BAP should:

-Increase detection range by 25% (1000m, 600m vs ECM)
-etc

SSRMs:

I never had a problem with streaks; I ran a streakcat, but I also ran into them in my other mechs. Anything that can't kill a streakcat should be able to outrun it. Yes, if I ran into a streakcat in my Jenner, I turned around an ran, but that was about the only mech that I ran away from before ECM. Was that right?

Many people seemed to have a problem with chain-firing; I rarely used it because it decreased your actual DPS, but if something needs to be nerfed, that would be the thing. Make it reacquire lock after every shot, or take away the smoke and shake, that's fine.

But if you nerf the damage, heat, etc, you will take an already niche weapon system and remove it from the game, entirely, and that would be a shame.

[Theobald Hauser]

I'm with you about streaks.

About ECM, it's what it should do TT-translating directly-wise, but we've left that behind and gone further, and the things ECM do are interesting for gameplay. Just needs dilution. As in the discussion I've invited to join in.

[CancR]

Sasuga, on 26 January 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Lots of stuff here.

Ive said multiple times that a 1:1 translation from TT to VG is not caopy/pasting mechanics straight over, but implimenting them as the VG counterparts. Locking on/ putting the cross hairs is the translation from TT to VG of the of in TT counting your move points properly to make sure you can use your torso twist can get the enemy in that arc to fire.

The situation you laid out also is a 1:1 to TT to VG. As in the table top you couldn't even roll the hit to see if you get target lock, in real time of a video game, if they dart a building and the missiles hit it instead of the mech, then the mech beat target lock.

The true problem with streaks is that they go far beyond the 1:1 translation from TT to VG as you can look up to the sky and be facing left when you are facing right and will still hit; and in the almost non-existent scatter, where in the TT it was high improbably that if you had two streaks for 4 missiles, that any 4 would hit the same location, and on top of that streaks are one of the few wepaons in the game that do way more damage then the table top, and enjoy being one of the very very few weapons that have a high damage value then the table top. (all energy weapons but flamers and almost all ballistics do TT damage value. ) It is the extra damage and a lower skill that make far more powerful then they should be, and my suggestion would bring them more in line with the idea of the table top, and even other MW games, and would make them more balanced.

[CancR]

Codejack, on 26 January 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

I think you're leaving ECM too powerful and nerfing SSRMs for no reason.

ECM should:

-Decrease detection range by 50% (400m)
-increase lock-on time by 100%
-Counter the bonuses provided by NARC and Artemis
-Prevent information sharing from mechs inside the bubble

You think my idea leaves ECm too powerful still? Our suggestions are pretty close to being uniform. Mine just come from being closer to the table top. ECM in BT null bonus' from any external electronics which is why everything that was included was mentioned.

[Vizan Thalt]

If streakcats were a problem for you, then you just suck at this game. If you think ECM is "fine," then you are either evil or insane.

Seriously love the sig. Codejack. There's truth for you.

[Theobald Hauser]

No, your suggestion won't bring them more in line with anything except your personal unsupported view of game concepts.
Name them as so, and stop pretending being truer than anyone about translating rules you don't even understand.

And the true problem with streaks is, you've decided to hate them.

[Codejack]

CancR, on 26 January 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

You think my idea leaves ECm too powerful still? Our suggestions are pretty close to being uniform. Mine just come from being closer to the table top. ECM in BT null bonus' from any external electronics which is why everything that was included was mentioned.

Well, I don't see how it would affect TAG; it's a laser. You can't produce a field that bends light.

But the big problem is the detection range; any small, fast mech with ECM can get inside the range of TAG and LRMs with ease. Move that out to 400m and you should get at least 1 clear shot off as they close, to give you a chance of survival.

This would also require the ECM mech to actually use skill instead of loading ECM and ignoring half the weapons in the game.

Frankly, I don't see how yours is any closer to TT rules, especially since it isn't supposed to affect detection range at all.

[Vizan Thalt]

Man I do love pointless debates over things that aren't set in stone- please note that while I never played BT- as far as I know the rules and specs had only been put on paper and to say that silcone waffers are stone(SAND) and thus on the net is splitting hairs.
ECM is bad in it's current state. Will it get fixed? Maybe- but probably not.
SSRMs are what they are and that's NOT TT COMPLIANT. Will they be? Maybe- but probably not.
Everyone detests something about the game and QQ over it being OP. Yours happens to be your desire to have TT rules apply to the thing you hate which is the SSRMs. Have a Nice day and thanks for playing.

[CancR]

Codejack, on 26 January 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

Well, I don't see how it would affect TAG; it's a laser. You can't produce a field that bends light.

But the big problem is the detection range; any small, fast mech with ECM can get inside the range of TAG and LRMs with ease. Move that out to 400m and you should get at least 1 clear shot off as they close, to give you a chance of survival.

This would also require the ECM mech to actually use skill instead of loading ECM and ignoring half the weapons in the game.

Frankly, I don't see how yours is any closer to TT rules, especially since it isn't supposed to affect detection range at all.

TAG isn't 'just a laser' though. It's a radar system that uses a laser to ping back and forth information, which is exactly what ECM jams.

Think of it almost exactly like a cop using a radar to catch speeders, and the speeder has one of the new fangled devices that jams the radar so they cant get an accurate read. That is why ECM in BT nullifies the bonus from TAG. It jams the external radar system so it gets the laser beam out, but no data pinging back.

Vizan Thalt, on 26 January 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Man I do love pointless debates over things that aren't set in stone- please note that while I never played BT- as far as I know the rules and specs had only been put on paper and to say that silcone waffers are stone(SAND) and thus on the net is splitting hairs.
ECM is bad in it's current state. Will it get fixed? Maybe- but probably not.
SSRMs are what they are and that's NOT TT COMPLIANT. Will they be? Maybe- but probably not.
Everyone detests something about the game and QQ over it being OP. Yours happens to be your desire to have TT rules apply to the thing you hate which is the SSRMs. Have a Nice day and thanks for playing.

the root of the problem my self, and alot of other people have with SSRMS are not that they are in line with TT, but are broken because how they function in the game, and the solution to fixing them is making them more in line with BT.

[Codejack]

CancR, on 26 January 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

TAG isn't 'just a laser' though. It's a radar system that uses a laser to ping back and forth information, which is exactly what ECM jams.

Um, no, it's purely laser-based.

CancR, on 26 January 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

Think of it almost exactly like a cop using a radar to catch speeders, and the speeder has one of the new fangled devices that jams the radar so they cant get an accurate read. That is why ECM in BT nullifies the bonus from TAG. It jams the external radar system so it gets the laser beam out, but no data pinging back.

Which is why many police departments use laser speed detectors, now, that cannot be blocked. You can still detect them, but you cannot scramble or jam them.

[Sasuga]

Oh my goodness!

Guys, guys, guys, relax! ECM is the rock to the Streak SRM Scissor. TAG is the Paper to the ECM Rock.

There was an advanced rule that allowed you to dumb-fire streaks. I see no reason to not allow streaks to be dumb-fired. It would have be be switched on and off somewhere, and that can take time during combat... but that would be another trade off to it.

I have ran with Streaks, and it hurt that ECM blocked me, and I got blown to bits because of it. So, I learned and I adapted my strategy. I invested in some non-Streak SRMs and I'm working on buying a Cat C4 so I can use a TAG.

MWO is a team game, you probably won't be able to take out every mech on the other team by yourself. Some sport lots of armor, others are fast, some can jump, others have ECM... It is war, you just have to deal with it.

War is hell, adapt or die.

Edited by Sasuga, 26 January 2013 - 05:15 PM.

[Codejack]

Sasuga, on 26 January 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

Oh my goodness!

Guys, guys, guys, relax! ECM is the rock to the Streak SRM Scissor. TAG is the Paper to the ECM Rock.

No, TAG is the post-it note to the ECM Boulder; it just doesn't work.

Sasuga, on 26 January 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

There was an advanced rule that allowed you to dumb-fire streaks.

That wasn't an advanced rule, that was how streaks worked against Angel ECM, which never really existed.

Sasuga, on 26 January 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

I have ran with Streaks, and it hurt that ECM blocked me, and I got blown to bits because of it. So, I learned and I adapted my strategy.

Me too; that doesn't mean that it didn't make the game less fun.

Sasuga, on 26 January 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

MWO is a team game, you probably won't be able to take out every mech on the other team by yourself. Some sport lots of armor, others are fast, some can jump, others have ECM... It is war, you just have to deal with it.

War is hell, adapt or die.

That's great; that's not the problem!