167 replies to this topic

[MysticLink]

Grey Ghost, on 27 January 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

I'm surprised how little the AS7-K is mentioned in this thread, since it's the only Atlas that is truly weak compared to the rest.

Heh, that's the only Atlas I don't have.

But it's good if you want a lot of anti air.

[MysticLink]

The truth is everyone has their own style of play. Some people are better in some mechs then others. I don't mind a buff in an Atlas since that's what I usually pilot but I think they are the best mech in the game as of now.

[p00k]

p00k, on 27 January 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

even if you never doubletap, it has the dps of 2 large lasers

p00k, on 27 January 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

even if you never doubletap, it has the dps of 2 large lasers

p00k, on 27 January 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

even if you never doubletap

Khobai, on 27 January 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

You are aware the UAC/5 has a 25% jam rate and stays jammed for 5 seconds?

yes yes, i know, reading is hard.
uac5 has 4.5dps when single fired. when single fired. when single fired. large laser has 2.1
hell, do the math with an ac10 then. 4 vs 4.2dps, for 15 tons (say 3 tons ammo), vs 10+heatsinks for 2llas. even with dhs, takes more than 5 to run 2llas. sure you get some free with the engine, but those you use to power those other energy hardpoint the atlas also has. so the difference is between having 2 energy+2ballistic+3missile for the ddc, vs a hypothetical 4energy+0ballistic+3missile. your engine freebies will be used for the 2 energy you have either way, so you have to pay tonnage/crits for any additional heatsinks to power 4 energy instead of just 2

[Grey Ghost]

MysticLink, on 27 January 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Heh, that's the only Atlas I don't have.

But it's good if you want a lot of anti air.

The Stalker 5S would be better, seeing as it sacrifices NO firepower for it's second AMS. The -K is a terrible Mech, and the worst Atlas by far. Let us be honest here, that second AMS doesn't suddenly make you that much safer from LRM spam. Sure some people can make it work for them, but it's extreme loss in firepower potential just makes it a gimp compared to all the other Atlas.

[MysticLink]

Grey Ghost, on 27 January 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

The Stalker 5S would be better, seeing as it sacrifices NO firepower for it's second AMS. The -K is a terrible Mech, and the worst Atlas by far. Let us be honest here, that second AMS doesn't suddenly make you that much safer from LRM spam. Sure some people can make it work for them, but it's extreme loss in firepower potential just makes it a gimp compared to all the other Atlas.

I wouldn't know, never tried builds with it, never tried 2 AMS....

You probably are right, I didn't pick that mech for a reason

[Bren McGuire]

I know armour is already doubled but it should be tripled. All mechs are destroyed too fast.

[sC4r]

so atlas is one of those mechs that have better weapon loadouts, is extremelly heavily armored, with solid torso size but not fit for xl

in 1v1 there is atm NO MECH that can beat it... no for a stalker but proves a worthy oponent, hell no for awesome, mission imposible for light mechs anymore, mediums simply lack the firepower to do the job, dragon with its not so good weapon loadout, catapult may pose a threat(gauss,ac20 and srm6 builds), and pracht is another worthy oponent but is either smaller version of other mechs (stalker/atlas) or just same build in different mech (gausspracht)

so tell me WHAT PART of atlas is underperforming? yea i know its an xl engine someone sticked inside and that its slightly too big and less maneuverable
generally to kill atlas you need to
- be much better pilot
- meet long range atlas with some heavy brawler
- outman him
- have your own atlas

[GhostFacedNinja]

Bren McGuire, on 27 January 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

I know armour is already doubled but it should be tripled. All mechs are destroyed too fast.

Or simply add in weapon inaccuracy/convergence. As the main problem is that people can accurately place all their weapons fire in one location in a system based on spreading damage over the entire body of a mech.

[Bhael Fire]

I think Atlai go down way too quick.

They should have 200-300 more points of max armor (i.e., around 800-900 max instead) if they are to be considered the end all be all of "walking tanks." In other words, they should be very hard to put down.

[sC4r]

Bhael Fire, on 27 January 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

I think Atlai go down way too quick.

They should have 200-300 more points of max armor (i.e., around 800-900 max instead) if they are to be considered the end all be all of "walking tanks." In other words, they should be very hard to put down.

yea if all you do is facing your oponents face to face all the time thinking im the guy in the only 100 ton mech here that can survive nuke in the face...
but if you try to turn your torso a little you should notice that you can survive 2-3 times longer

[MysticLink]

sC4r, on 27 January 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

yea i know its an xl engine someone sticked inside

XL 360 engine is not a bad idea if your not a brawler (4 ppcs and a guass, or 2 er ppcs, 3 double streak missles, and a gaus).

Techinically you do die faster in the sense you die after losing torso, but the thing is that you can avoid Atlases that are brawlers (you go at 64.4 speed) as well as Stalkers.

Well everyone has their own style....but I think for non-brawling Atlases, xl 360 engine is better.

Edited by MysticLink, 27 January 2013 - 01:26 PM.

[Red squirrel]

Khobai, on 27 January 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

The solution is to buff ballistic weapons in a major way. Ballistic weapons need to be good enough to justify the massive amount of tonnage and crit slots they consume.

Worst thing are the firing delay and the broken convergence system which make using ballistics quite difficult.
Yes the Gauss as a 1000+m sniper weapon works fine but its difficult to use ballistics in a real fight.
Also the crit slots / tonnage seems a bit odd
AC2 1 6
AC5 4 8
AC10 7 12
AC20 10 14

Especially the AC10 seems a bit out of line here. And since the MG is useless there is no light weight ballistic weapon.

[Icewraith]

The only issue I have with dual UAC/5 builds is that to get that dps you have to keep your torso pointed at whatever you're shooting at. If you twist to shield your ACs with your arms, you're losing dps. An AC/20 has a really long recharge time, but SRMs are almost as long, so you can twist away from your opponent for a few seconds and screw with his targeting before twisting back around and unloading on him.

On the plus side, you have 2 ACs to kill instead of just one, so when that torso's armor does get blown off you don't lose all of your ballistics as fast (usually).

Atlas side torsos seem like they should be more durable. If you're reckless or unlucky you can lose your ballistics before you get a chance to use them properly.

[Red squirrel]

sC4r, on 27 January 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

so atlas is one of those mechs that have better weapon loadouts, is extremelly heavily armored, with solid torso size but not fit for xl

in 1v1 there is atm NO MECH that can beat it... no for a stalker but proves a worthy oponent, hell no for awesome, mission imposible for light mechs anymore, mediums simply lack the firepower to do the job, dragon with its not so good weapon loadout, catapult may pose a threat(gauss,ac20 and srm6 builds), and pracht is another worthy oponent but is either smaller version of other mechs (stalker/atlas) or just same build in different mech (gausspracht)

so tell me WHAT PART of atlas is underperforming? yea i know its an xl engine someone sticked inside and that its slightly too big and less maneuverable
generally to kill atlas you need to
- be much better pilot
- meet long range atlas with some heavy brawler
- outman him
- have your own atlas

I cannot say whether I am a godlike pilot and always fight against noobs ...
But with my 4 xAC5 Cataphract I can pretty constantly core an Atlas in a 1 on 1 situation.
That's what made me wonder and thus I started this thread.

[p00k]

Khobai, on 27 January 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Not sure where youre getting your numbers from. You are aware the UAC/5 has a 25% jam rate and stays jammed for 5 seconds? So every four shots its going to add 5 seconds to the cooldown of weapon. So if it takes 3.3 seconds to fire four shots, plus the 5 second jam, thats 8.3 seconds... 20 damage in 8.3 seconds is 2.4 dps. A large laser does 2.12 dps.

also your math assumes a 100% jam rate, not a 25% jam rate
uac5, if you doubletap, will average out to about 4.3dps as well actually. i know, math is hard too, but let's try. we'll do a nice long stretch so it averages out

time/damage
1.5s/10 (using 1.5 since it takes a few ms to get your doubletap off)
2.6s/20 (counting 1.1s after you finished your first doubletap)
3.7s/30 (again, 1.1s after your 2nd doubletap)
4.8s/35 (25% jam rate means you jam once every 4 doubletaps, if you average out to a long period. which i'm going to do, so the math is fair. only 35 because you didn't get your 2nd shot off here cuz it jammed)
9.8s/45 (ok, 5 seconds later, unjammed (really it unjammed at like 9.5, but again, by 9.8 you should've fired your doubletap)
10.9/55 (see the pattern?)
12/65 (keeps going)
13.1/70 (again, jammed on the doubletap so you only do 5 damage instead of 10)
18.1/80 (5 seconds later...)
19.2/90 (keeps going)
20.3/100
21.4/105 (jam)
26.4/115 (5s later)
27.5/125
28.6/135
29.7/140 (jam)
34.7/150 (5s later)
35.8/160
36.9/170
38/175 (jam)
43/185 (5s later)
.
.
.
79.5/350 (4.4025 cumulative dps btw)

so depending on where you are in the jam cycle, your overall dps will fluctuate between 4.2 and 4.5, but doubletapping you have the potential to do up to 9dps with lulls of nothingness. i suspect the 25% jam rate was chosen intentionally to give the weapon a comparable long term dps to when single fired

tl;dr even doubletapping and factoring in the 5s jam, the uac5 still has double the dps of a large laser

[Malora Sidewinder]

Red squirrel, on 26 January 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

Hi,

first of all I have to say that I am not an Atlas pilot myself.
I used my founders Atlas just a few times so far.

What makes me wonder is that I thought (and in CB that was the case)
that the Atlas is the ultimate fortress. A slow area denial / defensive mech.
But right now the Atlas feels so weak.

In a close range combat the Stalker seems to win 3 out of 4 times.
Even worse, with my CTF-4X 4xAC5 I rip Atlai to pieces.
I mean I am okay coring Atlas all day long. But it feels a bit odd.

Your opinion?

No the atlas is fine as is, probably the most balanced mech in the game actually.

[p00k]

p00k, on 27 January 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

time/damage
1.5s/10 (using 1.5 since it takes a few ms to get your doubletap off)
2.6s/20 (counting 1.1s after you finished your first doubletap)
3.7s/30 (again, 1.1s after your 2nd doubletap)
4.8s/35 (25% jam rate means you jam once every 4 doubletaps, if you average out to a long period. which i'm going to do, so the math is fair. only 35 because you didn't get your 2nd shot off here cuz it jammed)
9.8s/45 (ok, 5 seconds later, unjammed (really it unjammed at like 9.5, but again, by 9.8 you should've fired your doubletap)
10.9/55 (see the pattern?)
12/65 (keeps going)
13.1/70 (again, jammed on the doubletap so you only do 5 damage instead of 10)
18.1/80 (5 seconds later...)
19.2/90 (keeps going)
20.3/100
21.4/105 (jam)
26.4/115 (5s later)
27.5/125
28.6/135
29.7/140 (jam)
34.7/150 (5s later)
35.8/160
36.9/170
38/175 (jam)
43/185 (5s later)
.
.
.
79.5/350 (4.4025 cumulative dps btw)

and before the mathematically challenged get confused, the reason it's 1.5/2.6/3.7 and not 1.1/2.2/3.3 is i'm basically doing this
1.1-shoot
1.5-doubleshot
2.2-shoot
2.6-doubleshot
3.3-shoot
3.7-doubleshot

you can offset it by another tenth of a second or so if you want, if you think it takes more than 0.4s to get off the doubleshot, but the long term average is the same

oh, and obviously it doesn't just jam every 4 shots, you might jam twice in a row and not jam for 10 doubletaps in a row. again, that's why i averaged it out over a long period of time

edit: actually extended out to ~500 seconds, your dps pretty much averages out to closer to 4.25

Edited by p00k, 27 January 2013 - 01:42 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

sC4r, on 27 January 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

yea if all you do is facing your oponents face to face all the time thinking im the guy in the only 100 ton mech here that can survive nuke in the face...
but if you try to turn your torso a little you should notice that you can survive 2-3 times longer

I don't own any assault mechs. I was mainly suggesting this because they are easy to kill and are typically the first target I go after. That's just plain wrong, IMO.

I just think they should be harder to kill.

[Red squirrel]

Bhael Fire, on 27 January 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

I don't own any assault mechs. I was mainly suggesting this because they are easy to kill and are typically the first target I go after. That's just plain wrong, IMO.

I just think they should be harder to kill.

exactly my point here ... but then I am fine with coreing assaults

[Vlad Ward]

Grey Ghost, on 27 January 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

The Stalker 5S would be better, seeing as it sacrifices NO firepower for it's second AMS. The -K is a terrible Mech, and the worst Atlas by far. Let us be honest here, that second AMS doesn't suddenly make you that much safer from LRM spam. Sure some people can make it work for them, but it's extreme loss in firepower potential just makes it a gimp compared to all the other Atlas.

The STK-5S loses a ton of torso twist range over the basic STK-3F for that extra AMS.