38 replies to this topic

[Navid A1]

Calimaw, on 27 January 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

The issue I am having is that pressing P will toggle your 'mech on and off, and if you press it multiple times you end up power-up just to shut-down again.

There is no clear indication when you should press P to power-up, so I tend to (Im sure others do too) press it multiple times, causing myself to get stuck in a permanent shutdown state, or power-up just to shut-down instantly again.

I suggest that "O" should perform as it used to as the ONLY and exclusive way to power-up from shut-down, and to act as it does now, to provide 5 seconds of 'grace' before shutting down.

"P" should only be used to shut-down and power-up during normal operation.

Much less confusion this way.

this man speaks the truth.

sycocys, on 31 January 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

Have any of you tried to power your computer back up halfway through it's shut down process?

no. (also it's not impossible to do)
but does your computer buffers its power button during it's shutdown procedure?
is there any indication in game to show that you are fully shutdown or half shut down or quarter shutdown... ?

think before answering.

Edited by Navid A1, 31 January 2013 - 04:30 PM.

[Lord Psycho]

Death Mallet, on 31 January 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Hopefully sometime between the 21st century and the 31st century, they will make improvements to computer hardware.

not to be silly...but they made computers that automatically shut down when the mech it's attached to overheats...I hoped in a 1000 years or so they'd make a computer that isn't affected by heat problems?

[Talisaerin]

sycocys, on 31 January 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

Have any of you tried to power your computer back up halfway through it's shut down process?

Yes. I run a (self-made) program on my systems that will maintain a process that will not allow my system to shut down until all other critical processes have ended, then it will pass the control back to the OS for the final shutdown. This gives me the ability to override the shutdown sequence of my computer for up to 30 seconds. Once the OS has control, I have less than 2 seconds left before the system goes into absolute power off. Then if I need to get back into the system I will wait 5 seconds before initiating the start up sequence on systems that use Mechanical HDDs. On systems that run SSDs, there is no wait time.

If I can do this on my 21st Century systems, why can I not do this on a 31st Century system that very likely has no sensitive mechanical data storage equipment on board that would prevent instant on/off performance? The (theoretically speaking) only critical system on a mech that will require the longest time to reboot is the reactor, before the reactor goes offline, the mech should be relatively quick to come back to full performance in an override situation.

[Calimaw]

It's not the computer that is over-heating. It's the equipment.
The computer controls the state of the equipment and manages it even during a shutdown, so the computer is still powered on during this process.
This is why the 'mech lowers the cockpit and legs into a resting state and doesn't just go rigid or ragdoll.

Computers have long since had batteries in them to run their clock, this is why you don't have to reset it like a microwave every time the power goes out.
It's possible that all of their running memory is solid-state as well; non-volatile vs volatile.

The game is obviously still in beta, and they are making changes to the existing functions; this is why we make suggestions so that we can debate on what we'd like to see implemented.

If we can drive a 70 ton mechanical biped that can fly (CTF-D3) while firing energy beam and particle weapons all the while I'd wager they could implement what we're looking at here as well.

[Cest7]

Pushing O while shutdown should have the same effect as pushing P to powerup, but only powerup.

I always mash O when I'm shutting down... does nothing

[sycocys]

corvimort, on 31 January 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

Yes. I run a (self-made) program on my systems that will maintain a process that will not allow my system to shut down until all other critical processes have ended, then it will pass the control back to the OS for the final shutdown. This gives me the ability to override the shutdown sequence of my computer for up to 30 seconds. Once the OS has control, I have less than 2 seconds left before the system goes into absolute power off. Then if I need to get back into the system I will wait 5 seconds before initiating the start up sequence on systems that use Mechanical HDDs. On systems that run SSDs, there is no wait time.

Can you post a video of this software of yours working? I'm a bit skeptical honestly that you managed to override windows shut-down processes but am hopeful you can prove me wrong.

Wouldn't mind seeing you unplug all the fans in your rig to see if you can still override the automatic heat shutdowns, but I can understand if you don't want to do that ;D
---

Cest7, on 01 February 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

Pushing O while shutdown should have the same effect as pushing P to powerup, but only powerup.

I always mash O when I'm shutting down... does nothing

Because you need to hit O before you shut down.

[Calimaw]

sycocys, on 01 February 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Can you post a video of this software of yours working? I'm a bit skeptical honestly that you managed to override windows shut-down processes but am hopeful you can prove me wrong.

Wouldn't mind seeing you unplug all the fans in your rig to see if you can still override the automatic heat shutdowns, but I can understand if you don't want to do that ;D

Many programmers have their own tools that they've made. It's not all that difficult of a thing to do when you WANT to do it.
It probably behaves much like any other root-kit.

I am a sound designer, but I have made vector aimbots in the past for older games that avoid any check-sum countermeasure because the program doesn't need to inject into the game code.

I'm not trying to gang up on you or make you look silly, just stating a few fun facts

[sycocys]

He wasn't talking about a software that altered the way the game closed down, which I'm sure someone dedicated enough to crack the client's code could do, though I can't imagine any reason why anyone would want to halfway shut down the client.

It's doing the same thing for the Windows O/s or any other current one, that I'm skeptical about. Is it possible? Maybe, but I doubt it, because especially with the newer O/s's things load and unload in a particular order and manner. Much less having a software that would stop the shut down of Windows and command it to restart from that point because that software is non-critical and would be shut down before critical processes along with key/mouse drivers, I personally just don't believe in this claim and would like to see it backed up in some way. -- This is totally a side-topic but I'd still like to see some proof of this none-the-less. Just a prove me wrong request here.

-- From a technical standpoint for the in game perspective, you'd need to perform your override before the heat protection systems engaged the lockdown, or have another upgrade to your mech that modified in a way that removed/altered the protection systems. Technically you shouldn't be able to do an override power up at all, the safety features would prevent that all together - it wouldn't make sense for a manufacturer to purposely build in a feature that would 95% of the time blow the machine up. A manual override makes more sense, both pre-shut down and post, personally I think it should be a combination of more buttons because, unless it were modified in, I doubt the factory would make the - suicide feature (might be a better descriptor) - a one flick of a button option. This is where the devs need to find a good point between more sim and more accessibility because I don't think most of us are going to come to agreement on these more technical details.

[R0adK1ll]

Frequently experiencing the same problem as described above. Heat override takes a long time to activate and about 75% of the time I end up with no HUD and the red screen tint. If you survice the shut down, you die fast with no HUD.

[Navid A1]

sycocys, on 01 February 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

...

-- From a technical standpoint for the in game perspective, you'd need to perform your override before the heat protection systems engaged the lockdown, or have another upgrade to your mech that modified in a way that removed/altered the protection systems. Technically you shouldn't be able to do an override power up at all, the safety features would prevent that all together - it wouldn't make sense for a manufacturer to purposely build in a feature that would 95% of the time blow the machine up. A manual override makes more sense, both pre-shut down and post, personally I think it should be a combination of more buttons because, unless it were modified in, I doubt the factory would make the - suicide feature (might be a better descriptor) - a one flick of a button option. This is where the devs need to find a good point between more sim and more accessibility because I don't think most of us are going to come to agreement on these more technical details.

do you know what we are talking about?
we are totally ok with this new system... it is what it shout be.
the only problem is that the emergency power up button is the same as the master power switch (and the game seems like to buffer that switch) if PGI change it to some other switch, everything will be fine.

[Theevenger]

GazT4R, on 30 January 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

I quite agree with everyone, the new system is quite frankly a steaming pile of donkey ****.
I spend far too long shutdown after overheat unable to restart, press P and nothing happens then press it again and I power up then shutdown, whereas before I simply hit override and powered up. It's frustrating to say the least and I've died several times from this abysmal system.

While I agree that it is not working properly and is perhaps somewhat clunky even if it were working as described, I think you are being grossly unfair to the devs with this statement. They released a feature into beta, it didn't even work the way they said it was intended to, and you are calling them names because the mechanic is "broken". Cut them some slack, this is how development works. You release a feature into beta to see if your intended design works well, turns out it can't be evaluated because it has a bug in it, now they retool it and eventually when it is working as they said they intended it to work, then we can evaluate it and see if it was good or not. Until then, you are just calling them names for doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing.

[TigrisMorte]

Death Mallet, on 31 January 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Hopefully sometime between the 21st century and the 31st century, they will make improvements to computer hardware.

Why would you think that? I mean evidently they can't make sensors that detect things behind you and minivans have that now.

[Navid A1]

TigridMorte, on 01 February 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Why would you think that? I mean evidently they can't make sensors that detect things behind you and minivans have that now.

your point is valid actually.

but radars and collision detectors are quite different. (normally) radars work by sweeping a defined angle beck and forth so by limiting that angle range you can have faster target updates and more detailed info (as well as more simultaneous target locks). that's why things like the main radar on things like an advance F-22 sweeps the forward area (because it needs its most detection potential in a field where it can bring its guns to bear...

so having a secondary radar module on the mechs (which does not take up any space) for reverse scan is acceptable.

[WaKK0]

The new override and shutdown/power on seems to be completely broken for me. Can't override any more, nor can I restart the mech once it goes into shutdown mode. Absolutely detest this implementation and believe it should be rolled back to the working version from previous patches.

[Wildstreak]

As I mentioned here: http://mwomercs.com/...k/page__st__120 it seems I have to hit X first then do O then P then P. Still takes a while but works better though I don't like it.

[MavRCK]

So... much of this discussion was TL;DR -- what was wrong with the old system? It played like the older MW games, like the novels, and as other people have mentioned: simpler, intuitive and took skill to manage without dying. Now it's just... buggy?

[Calimaw]

MavRCK, on 02 February 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

So... much of this discussion was TL;DR -- what was wrong with the old system? It played like the older MW games, like the novels, and as other people have mentioned: simpler, intuitive and took skill to manage without dying. Now it's just... buggy?

There is a known issue with it concerning a visual component after you power-up ( a bug; where the overlay remains)
However it is also simply executed in a way that doesn't seem very intuitive.

To summarize the unintuitive portion; pressing P to power-up and power-down can often cause that key to buffer, which means it can often cause you to power-down the moment your 'mech is powered-up.

I've made a logic grid to explain my suggestion better...



Legend:
NSO = Normal System Operation (when the user is NOT in a shut-down state caused by the system)
MSO = Managed System Operation (when the user IS in a shut-down state caused by the system)
PK = Power Key (two states; toggle)
OK = Override Key (two states; momentary)

Edited by Calimaw, 03 February 2013 - 02:20 AM.

[Kaeseblock]

I like the concept of the new heat override system. Especially that pressing "o" prevents the mech from shutting down. However, the implementation still has a lot of flaws.

1.) the yellow override screen remains bug occures far too often after forcing the power up via "p"; Solution: power down and power up again. Solves the bug, but it takes a lot of time and you often get shot when the bug occures in the heat of the battle.

2.) sometimes pressing "p" doesn't cause the mech to power up again. I guess this happens, when "p" is pressed during the shutdown sequence.

3.) if 2.) occures and you press "p" again, you override the overheat shutdown just to enter the normal shutdown mode. At least this is, how it feels like, I didn't get this "bug" often enough, to examine it in-depth.


Often I dont know, if the mech is powering up when I press "p" after overheating due to 2.), so some immideate feedback (maybe acustically, since the visual mech interface is obviously shut down) if the mech is currently powering up or not would be really nice.

[Talisaerin]

I've tried making the video, but unfortunately, the vid cap software is one of the first processes killed by the shutdown signal... however, if you have Steam installed it's very likely that you can see the effect of what my program does. Steam does not release the system for shutdown until all the server connections are safely terminated. During this time Windows 7 will dim the screen and bring up a window saying "The Following Programs are preventing windows from shutting down" with the blue buttons of "Force the program to close" and "Cancel." If you choose cancel, the shutdown process has been overridden, and any programs that haven't been killed will still be running.

What my program does is kick itself to high priority when the shutdown command is issued that prevents the Shutdown sequence from terminating it right from the start. It will allow all the non-critical TSRs to be terminated by the system down to the bare minimum processes to maintain a workable system... once the processes reach the bare minimum, the shutdown process finally is able to kill my program and continue with terminating explorer.exe, taskmgr.exe, all the svchost.exe's and finally the System kernel itself. Once my program is terminated, the override can no longer be completed, but at this point, there's no reason to. The whole time that my process is running, the force close window is shown on screen, listing both steam.exe and my program as the offending processes.

If you want to be fully technical, the shutdown sequence ultimately cannot be overridden, however, with the computers, as non-critical TSRs are being shut down, there is an opportunity to halt the shutdown process. This can be looked at as non-critical systems on a mech being brought offline. At any point during this routine, the shutdown override can be initiated...but once the reactor, the most critical mech system, is taken offline, the shutdown override can no longer be used, and a full powerup sequence will need to be performed to return the mech to combat ready status.

Also note: I have not yet out quite how to abort the shutdown sequence on a Linux system. On Linux, once the shutdown signal is sent, all shells and terminals loose the ability to send commands to the Kernel...which means that all TSRs, are immediately nullified from being able to send interrupts.