52 replies to this topic

[Aym]

Sigifrid, on 27 January 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

A gauss rifle is essentially a kinetic strike weapon, which functions by accelerating a solid ferromagnetic slug to incredibly high speeds via electromagnetic coils....The electromagnetically accelerated slug should have to be propelled faster than an explosive shell to be able to inflict the damage it does.

Oh so false. So so very wrong. In your opinion the speeds don't make sense, fine. In Math's opinion the speeds work just fine. F=MA means that the "Force" of, as you put it, "a kinetic strike," is equal to the "Mass" multiplied by the "Acceleration." In this case the "acceleration" may be counter-intuitive to you as it is in fact deceleration. None the less, the actual speed only affects the "A" part of the equation, while the mass of the slug fired by the Gauss rifle affects the M part. So, the Gauss rifle round's Mass plays an incredibly important roll in determing the "force" or "damage" the weapon does on impact at whatever fairy-dust-magic-robot-space-knight speed this game uses.

[Sigifrid]

First Aym, who is Marth?
Second, go back to physics 101 before trying to sound smart on the internet. Kinetic energy (1/2*mass*velocity^2) is the key to determining the damage inflicted. Go read Trev's post back a page; he is better with physics than I am and had the equations to prove my point.

[Tarman]

Sigifrid, on 27 January 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

First Aym, who is Marth?
Second, go back to physics 101 before trying to sound smart on the internet. Kinetic energy (1/2*mass*velocity^2) is the key to determining the damage inflicted. Go read Trev's post back a page; he is better with physics than I am and had the equations to prove my point.

The point is your math is irrelevant, because spacemagicrobotgame. In the MWO universe, damage inflicted is calculated by guys in an office running internal testing of a video game. Gameplay-wise this does not need to be changed, if your reasoning is primarily IRL-based.

[anonymous175]

PPCs are fun to shoot now. Needs more shapow though.

[Trev Firestorm]

ok, so now we have 60kg 1200m/s in some stupid small amount of time say .01s (assuming the mech would actually stop the round but w/e) 7,200,000=15 damage, 480,000=one damage
12kg ac2: 2,400,000=5 damage, 6kg ac2: 1,200,000= 2.5 damage

so even with the light ac2 estimate its still over 2 damage BEFORE taking explosive component into account.

point is faster gauss or slower acs are the only ways to make it make sense

Edited by Trev Firestorm, 27 January 2013 - 06:59 PM.

[ColdCutz]

Wolfways, on 27 January 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

Actually i have no problem with the gauss having shot speed buff, but it needs a huge nerf in some other way.

Here's a nerf to Gauss I suggested that everyone is sure to hate.

[Davers]

It's funny how when gauss was the fastest ballistic (with the same speed it has now) no one complained about the speed. Now that they put in other weapons with faster speeds it's all 'My gauss should be faster!!!!'. It's like no one remembers the speed increases were partly because of how good gauss was compared to everything else.

Game balance is more important than blind adherence to BT lore.

[TungstenWall]

Trev Firestorm, on 27 January 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Yes, because it makes zero sense for the gauss to be moving slower than an autocannon round.

OK! lets make the Gauss round move 2x faster.

Why not make it even more realistic?

The Gauss rifle only causes 5 damage to targets under 100M because the shell puts a perfect hole into the target, therefore releasing very little kinetic energy into the armor and hull.

We could also make PPCs shut down Gaussrifles.

We could also cause water to short circuit them too!



Or we can try to balance the game

[CrashieJ]

TungstenWall, on 27 January 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

Why not make it even more realistic?

You're insane.

TungstenWall, on 27 January 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

Or we can try to balance the game

You're Brilliant.

[Kaspirikay]

I like how people talk about realism in a fantasy game.

Edited by Kaspirikay, 28 January 2013 - 01:01 AM.

[Crawford]

This occurred to me as well when I first tried out the Gauss rile, the projectile moves far too slowly for what is essentially a rail gun.

[Kszyh]

Kaspirikay, on 28 January 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:

I like how people talk about realism in a fantasy game.

Science fiction game, get your terminology right.

[Apoc1138]

Trev Firestorm, on 27 January 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

ok, so now we have 60kg 1200m/s in some stupid small amount of time say .01s (assuming the mech would actually stop the round but w/e) 7,200,000=15 damage, 480,000=one damage
12kg ac2: 2,400,000=5 damage, 6kg ac2: 1,200,000= 2.5 damage

so even with the light ac2 estimate its still over 2 damage BEFORE taking explosive component into account.

where are you getting your estimates on the weight of the projectile bit of the AC/2 round from?
a modern tank HEAT round will weight something like 22kg, the shell itself makes up 12kg, so slightly more than 50%, and then in the "ammo" weight in game you need to account for loading mechanism, ammo box or whatever... the actual projectile could be as low as 30% of the total weight which would make it more like 4kg, which then makes it 1.6 damage and needs an explosive charge to bring it back up

also... it's just a bloody game, and the speed of the projectile is more to do with game balance than it is to do with physics
at the ranges used in game, all ballistic weapons should basically be near instant hit, however this makes them too easy to use...I personally am willing to suspend disbelief if it introduces a skill element to the game

[Havyek]

Is this another "Imaginary weapons doesn't act like it would in the real world" thread, or another "weapon in MWO doesn't act like it did in the TT" thread?





'Cuz frankly, I'm tired of both.

[Tuku]

You are trying to apply real world physics and logic to a videogame and table top universe where in the pinnacle of modern warfare are ancient centuries old tanks bi-pedal walking tanks held together with space bailing wire and space ductape, and happens to be just coming out of a dark age of sorts with old tech being re discovered every day.

Stop it, just stop it right now. Bad OP Bad Bad OP!

Also please tell me what work you have done on current rail gun technology to certify any statement that you make about their projectile speed. Also ac2 rounds fire slower than an actual real world tank round. On the other hand what is to say that the rounds in auto cannons are not fired by some super goop that works 100 times better than anything that black powder can do today?

Also butts

That is all I feel all warm and fuzzy inside now

[Bishop Steiner]

Wolfways, on 27 January 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Could you tell me what nerfs the gauss has had please? I've only started using it recently but the only nerf i know about is the HP reduction, which imo is hardly a nerf at all (especially on the K2). I rarely lose the gauss on my Cataphract before the whole arm is gone.

But, i have to say that in the TT the gauss was an OP weapon. I have no idea why it was released as is. It seems like the people who created it just threw the rulebook out of the window.

because it was advanced tech, which was supposed to obsolete the existing level one tech?

Because if one has scientific advancement as a game feature, balance has to eventually be ignored. Just as there was no down side (beside cost and availability) to the metallic cartridge replacing the muzzle loader, and again. none when smokeless powder obsoleted black powder, there is not always a NERF needed to "balance" something.

Star League Tech is BETTER than what came before. Clan Tech will be BETTER than it (which is why everyone rolls with the power creep and wants to drive MadCats). The only limiting factors are economy, availability and sustainability, concepts that get the entitled gaming community up in arms (it's P2W!!!!!!).

Indeed... whoever has the larger military budget usually DOES win......

[Sigifrid]

Davers, on 27 January 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

It's funny how when gauss was the fastest ballistic (with the same speed it has now) no one complained about the speed. Now that they put in other weapons with faster speeds it's all 'My gauss should be faster!!!!'. It's like no one remembers the speed increases were partly because of how good gauss was compared to everything else.

Game balance is more important than blind adherence to BT lore.

No one complained then because the ballistic speeds made sense relative to each other, aside from the PPC that was moving too slow.
In any event, Gauss rifles are at a higher tech level than autocannons, ergo they are supposed to be stronger/faster than autocannons. They are designed to shoot faster than other ballistic weapons. This is not blind adherence to BT lore, and they have plenty of drawbacks that balance their usage (weight/bulk/low health/90% chance of explosion).

[Zatharus Mathew deTora]

Heeden, on 27 January 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

Don't forget with Gauss the weapon explodes, not the ammo, because solid lumps of metal are not explosive and magnets...are? The up-shot is you won't be able to tell the difference between losing an arm and the gauss going with it, or the gauss being hit and blowing your arm off.

Heeden; It's not the magnets. It's the ****-huge capacitors that run the bad-boy that go boom violently enough to shred your internals. Go to your local tech supply house or college with an electrical department and ask. They'll explain the problems far more eloquently than I ever can.

[Wolfways]

ColdCutz, on 27 January 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

Here's a nerf to Gauss I suggested that everyone is sure to hate.

I thought about that for PPC's a while ago. I'd love to click the mouse button, hear the weapon charge up then "wham!"
It would be a PITA to shoot anything that wasn't stationary though

[Wolfways]

Crawford, on 28 January 2013 - 03:14 AM, said:

This occurred to me as well when I first tried out the Gauss rile, the projectile moves far too slowly for what is essentially a rail gun.

When i first tried AC's i thought they are the slowest firing autocannons i've ever seen.