71 replies to this topic

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

PPC definitely do some damage under 90m. I've just asked one of the guys from my team to fire PPC at me from about 40-50m and I received some damage.

[Viper69]

Bilbo, on 29 January 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

We can do that. Paul just updated the weapon balancing post. PPC's among other things are getting lowered heat generation on the 5th. Say hello to the massive number of ppc stalkers that will follow.

I know mine will be out and running. 2 ERPPC and 4 PPC.

[DDDs]

Bilbo, on 29 January 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

We can do that. Paul just updated the weapon balancing post. PPC's among other things are getting lowered heat generation on the 5th. Say hello to the massive number of ppc stalkers that will follow.

Also PPC nullifying ECM. inb4 PPC's are OP, nerf!

[Sug]

Vessiel, on 28 January 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

ppcs aren't completly worthless below 90, their damage is reduced linearly, 90m/10dmg, 80m/9dmg, 70m/8dmg, until below 10m/1dmg. I have an awesome with 4ppcs, if there isn't the risk of overheat and the enemy is half dead i use them below 90m; for example at 40-50m, 4 ppc do 20damage, same as an ac20. Usually they aren't worth using below 30m

Source?

Yesterday I shot a stationary dc'd Spider with a PPC at 75m in the back 10 times before it died. Pretty sure the damage drop off is pretty steep.

[vettie]

Here is Pauls reply / report on Lasers / PPCs (all large ones including LPL)

http://mwomercs.com/...28#entry1812228

There is another answer on the std PPC doing linear damage below 90 but I cant find it currently

However, this thread is about putting that info in the mech lab.

Garth (I think) posted a pic of what is to come and it showed the range and heat numbers maybe more.
You can sure for posts by Garth to find it.

Fired? Nah. My opinion. Should the info be there? Yes, my opinion again.
I would also like to assign weapons groups in the mech too, my opinion again...

[Vessiel]

Karr285, on 29 January 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Could you source this because I have had experiences that say this is horribly inaccurate, ie Ive stood at 85m away from a 6 ppc stalker in a heavily damaged Cicada, and took 2 alphas before he shutdown, even at 9 damage a peice thats 54 damage x2, I should have been toast, but my internals didn't even go yellow --> red.

So either your Info is wrong or the game has a bug, I going to say since anything past the optimal range up to weapons max is only 1 value ie Med laser past 270 up to 540 is the same damage, that your ppc's are doing probably 1 damage from 89-0 meters

At the moment i don't find a post on this forum, but go here: http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab# pick up any mech and put a ppc, then go on "weaponlab" and there, there is a dps for the weapon with chart dps/range. For a comparison put any lrm and you'll see how it change.

This afternoon (i'm gmt+1) i killed a cicala at 40-60m, but it was already damage, if i can do that again, i'll try to take a screenshot.

I may be wrong, so feel free to post a link where there is written that the ppc do minimal damage below 90m, all that i wrote was done seeing how the damage done in various battle (for example an inside become red from yellow) changed below 90m, but is an empirical way




EDIT: i put inside the wrong quote, now it's quoted the right post

Edited by Vessiel, 29 January 2013 - 12:58 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Hrm, so instead of getting an ECM effect on the PPC, we are getting an anti-ECM effect. Say huh wut?

[Steven Dixon]

Not everyone who fires LRMs or PPCs at min range are doing it out of ignorance, sometimes they are doing it to detract their opponent.

[Thuzel]

Trauglodyte, on 29 January 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

Bleh, I jacked up the quick math. Yes, 60m and not 20m. And yes, still baffling but that goes along with why the Lrg Laser is 9/7 when it was 8/8 in TT. If you wanted to drop the heat on it to stay within the structure of the Small (3/2) and Medium (5/4), why not make it 8/7? Why did they need to add a point of damage? And why is the heat on the ER Lrg 10 instead of 11 when in TT, it was always 4 points hotter than the norm? Lots of boggle in PGI, sometimes.

All of that is the result of (in my opinion) really ham-handed balancing.

PGI really screwed themselves when they changed the firing rates, but not relative heat values. The repercussions of that decision include "heat restricted" weapons such as large lasers and PPCs suffering a great deal more than non "heat restricted" weapons. Imagine, for example, if PGI had decided to take ammo values and divide them by a third, and what that would do to ballistics and missiles. That's effectively what PGI did to high-heat weapons. The result is what we have now, where they've been chasing their tail for half a year trying to re-balance things.

What was, and should be a balanced system was made fubar by that one move. Honestly, I have no idea where they're going from here, and for all I know they may get it right, but I have no idea how they'd do that.

They really needed to go back and reverse that decision, but instead just chose to spend months upon months trying to fix a badly damaged mechanic.

[Karr285]

Thuzel, on 29 January 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

The Gauss had a minimum of 60m, not 20. And them leaving that out is more than a little baffling.

is it really that baffling? PPCs have an actual component in them as a safety feature so you dont kill yourself shooting them that close.

A gauss Rifle shoots a Projectile, so unless the gauss rifle shoots the "bullet" and then teleports it Xmeters away then it continues its flight THAT would make no sense.

[Solis Obscuri]

AC/5s and AC/2s also had a minimum range.

[Karr285]

Oh and the heat recycle change is fine. Just because you CAN shoot something 3x faster than TT doesn't mean its a good idea, Ive run dual Erppc and 2 med laser in a Flame with 16 DHS, Its fine. you just have to realize its a long range weapon that isn't meant to shoot every time its green

[Novawrecker]

Bilbo, on 29 January 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

I'm positive. I get up in PPC boat grills every time I play. They do nothing inside 90 except increase the shooter's heat.

I can confirm this. Tonight I unloaded 3 PPCs into an opponent at 42m. Didn't even scratch the paint.

[BaronofBeanDip]

Yeah, I didnt know the minimum range thing till the other day. Then I gave the current trial awesome another go, and found myself rather enjoying PPC's. The key is to back them up with another weapon for close range, like how that awesome has a large laser to go with the PPC. I got myself 5 kills one game with that trial awesome, mostly due to that PPC.

Then in another game, I was in a hunchback, and I was with another team mate in some other mech, and we came across an atlas packing 3 PPC's and some other gun. We took out that other gun, and I told the other guy to get right up to him, since his PPC's wouldn't do much damage. Plus PPC's are hard to aim that close. We ripped him apart.

[Adrienne Vorton]

Eddy Hawkins, on 28 January 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

I never understood why the values were not added. Perhaps because if they change somthing in a patch they would have to make a change to the item discription in the Mechlab aswell?

well. Eddy, i gess you understood it pretty well... on each single item is a big fat sticker saying "SUBJECT TO CHANGE"... in theory - and some "stealth patches" proved that already - changes can appear any day to any item... changing the stats in the mechlab everytime is just additional work that consumes time better invested somewhere else ...

before anyone says it: yep, those stats may never really be final, nature of games... but at some point they are considered final, and will only change if something very critical appears...that´s probably the point when PGI says:OK, we can add those stats as official now...

BUT!!!

PGI could just add the canon descriptions to make things like min-range clear, that would be a nice start

another BUT: the new mechlab is cuurently in development afaik, and descriptions will be part of it...so patience me brothers

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 29 January 2013 - 11:54 PM.

[Warma]

Trauglodyte, on 29 January 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

I don't mind the minimum range on PPCs. Though, it does puzzle me why it remains for the PPC and LRMs and yet is gone for the Gauss Rifle. If nothing else, you'd think that they'd reduce the PPC min by 20m to equalize it (Gauss Rifle had a minimum range of 20m).

Actually, in tabletop, the minimum range of Gauss only makes it more difficult to hit inside the range. Gauss still does full damage to anything inside that radius. I don't remember how the TT did PPCs, but this wasn't the method if I recall.

[Strum Wealh]

Trauglodyte, on 29 January 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

I don't mind the minimum range on PPCs. Though, it does puzzle me why it remains for the PPC and LRMs and yet is gone for the Gauss Rifle. If nothing else, you'd think that they'd reduce the PPC min by 20m to equalize it (Gauss Rifle had a minimum range of 20m).

The answer to that was actually given by the Devs in Q&A 05 back in March 2012:

Quote

Will the ranges of the BattleMechs' weapons - and the relationships between them - be more similar to those from the BattleTech tabletop game (including, perhaps, some implementation of any of the minimum, short, medium, long, and extreme range brackets), or those from the previous MechWarrior computer games? –Strum Wealh

[DAVID] With minimum ranges, it depends on how justified we can be in putting them into the game without them being silly. For PPCs, there’s mentions in the lore about they don’t reach a full charge at close ranges so as not to damage the attacker’s own electronic systems. LRMs, being meant for long range, do not necessarily arm before they clear a certain distance. But it’s harder to justify why you can’t accurately fire an Autocannon/2 or Autocannon/5 up close, other than it was a balance to their long range in the tabletop game, so they won’t be affected by any sort of minimum range. The tabletop long ranges, on the other hand, we’re interpreting as the maximum effective range. Lasers, AC slugs, and whatnot will travel past this range, but will begin to do less and less damage, and the effects of gravity on any sort of physical projectile will make it harder to hit your target. Missiles reaching the limits of their range will automatically detonate.

(emphasis mine)

For the LRMs and PPCs, the minimum ranges are also mentioned in the BattleTech gameplay rules.

• "The minimum range of LRMs and ATMs in the standard rules reflects the time it takes for the internal guidance systems to lock on to targets and for the explosive payloads to arm. Hot-loading enables a player to arm his LRM or ATM warheads before firing the missiles." (Tactical Operations, pg. 103)
  
• "The field inhibitors restrict the dangerous charged-particle feedback produced when a PPC is fired, but also prevent the weapon from firing accurately at targets closer than minimum range. Disengaging a PPC’s field inhibitor removes the minimum range modifier, at the risk of subjecting the firing unit to particle feedback." (Tactical Operations, pg. 103)

However, the minimum ranges for direct-fire ballistics are more difficult, so they were left out.

[VXJaeger]

I think that minimum ranges are backwards. ER PPC should have min range, and normal PPC shouldn't.
Also normal PPC should weigh 1 ton less than ER.

[Eddy Hawkins]

Colin Thrase, on 29 January 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

For the OP: What would you suggeset a mech with only PPCs do when confronted with a light mech within 90m? I will agree that firing until shutdown from overheat is a pretty bad idea, but firing to keep you from shooting accurately is a good idea.
.

As you already stated, put other weapons on. I would recommend a pair of MLAS. But, when i am in their face and they shoot alphas at me, its clear that they are not trying to keep me from shooting accurately, but in fact trying to core me as i stand still in front of them. What I am trying to stop is the other players frustration, because i know he is thinking "i hit that guy with two alphas and he still has yellow armor?? HACKS! This game sucks!"

[Eddy Hawkins]

Krzysztof z Bagien, on 29 January 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

PPC definitely do some damage under 90m. I've just asked one of the guys from my team to fire PPC at me from about 40-50m and I received some damage.

How much damage? Because that is really the argument we are having. Some say there is a drop off in damage within 90m, some say there is zero damage. I believe if there is any, it is probably a single point of damage. In my OP, the example I was describing was Catapult with three PPC, the second was an Awesome with four, i stood maybe 2m from them and my armor did flash when i was hit, however it never changed from yellow. Given that I was in a light, if the damage I was receiving was anything substantial I should have seen my armor degrade to some degree.

Edited by Eddy Hawkins, 30 January 2013 - 06:38 AM.