371 replies to this topic

[xRatas]

CECILOFS, on 01 February 2013 - 02:34 AM, said:

Interesting. Is it that annoying for you to swap loadouts when you want to?

Don't know about him, but I certainly dislike messing with my mechs. So I have several of same variants. While at it, I have full sets of modules too on mechs I like, so I don't have to swap... OTOH, I don't have stupid looking atlai or ravens in my carage. I won't drive a mech that doesn't look good. So I save a lot of coin when not buying every mech available.

Edited by xRatas, 04 February 2013 - 10:07 AM.

[LaserAngel]

Serapth, on 03 February 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

I have certainly seen a rise in SplatCats though, especially in 4 man cheese builds.

The same folks that used to ride Streakcats, switched to StreakRavens and with their nerf ( or more accurately, the ability to actually shoot them again ) have switched to Splatcats.

I think the game is going to always have a cheese build that 4mans gravitate towards, and that build is always going to work under swarm tactics. This of course would be why they are viewed as no-skill builds. Frankly, it doesnt take skill for 4 guys to facehump someone.

I believe the current motivation is to run it on the tears of the other players until the Catapult is fixed.

[Yokaiko]

Catapult isn't broken.

If you watck a mech with a 70+ point alpha get that close you deserve what you get.

[Serapth]

Yokaiko, on 04 February 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Catapult isn't broken.

If you watck a mech with a 70+ point alpha get that close you deserve what you get.

And... which map makes this hard to accomplish? Other than Caustic, you can sneak within a few hudred metres of almost any point, with the only way to be detected is someone coming face to face with you. It aint exactly rocket surgery, especially if you can talk an ECM mech into escorting you... so get off it.

[Protection]

Here's the strange thing -- the Catapult is supposed to be a long range, indirect fire support mech.

What is the justification for it having the best torso twist in the game? Wouldn't a long range indirect fire support mech not require any kind of impressive torso twist ability?

I'm a known Catapult-*****, but it is really strange that a long range indirect fire support mech succeeds as some of the strongest brawler designs in the game.

Also, I really liked the idea about side torso mounts being much larger when a Cat is packing AC/20 and Gauss.

[QuantumButler]

All of you jokers who voted "no" are complete and utter <redacted>'s

That is all.

[Josef Nader]

Yeah, the amount of complaining that happens towards Catapults on this mech is blown way out of proportion, so it's hardly a surprise that there was such a huge kneejerk reaction to this thread. I still feel like the cat is just a few shades too good still, and knocking down the twist would be a really subtle way to knock it down from "best" to "fantastic" without ruining the niche the Cat has carved for itself.

Lore wise, there are a lot of arguments that could be made for the Cat's twist being way too insanely good for it's role, but ignoring the lore and going with strict game mechanics, the Cat is still just a little too good at everything. It needs to be toned back in a few subtle ways to make other chassis a serious contender in "who do we bring to win this tournament" matchups.

Edited by Josef Nader, 04 February 2013 - 12:03 PM.

[Protection]

Josef Nader, on 04 February 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

It needs to be toned back in a few subtle ways to make other chassis a serious contender in "who do we bring to win this tournament" matchups.

There is nothing that is going to save the Dragon. Ever.

[Gaan Cathal]

Josef Nader, on 04 February 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Yeah, the amount of complaining that happens towards Catapults on this mech is blown way out of proportion, so it's hardly a surprise that there was such a huge kneejerk reaction to this thread. I still feel like the cat is just a few shades too good still, and knocking down the twist would be a really subtle way to knock it down from "best" to "fantastic" without ruining the niche the Cat has carved for itself.

Lore wise, there are a lot of arguments that could be made for the Cat's twist being way too insanely good for it's role, but ignoring the lore and going with strict game mechanics, the Cat is still just a little too good at everything. It needs to be toned back in a few subtle ways to make other chassis a serious contender in "who do we bring to win this tournament" matchups.

This. Asides from anything else, there's no reason why the Catapult should have a better torso twist than any other chicken-walker mech. They collectively have a better twist than humanoids because of the lack of arms, obviously, but a major disparity within that makes no sense. This is also true of the Stalker 3H (I think it's the 3H) which has a randomly-superior torso twist to the other variants of the same chassis.

[Josef Nader]

Protection, on 04 February 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

There is nothing that is going to save the Dragon. Ever.

Because the Dragon is a fat medium eating up a heavy slot. Just like nothing will ever save the Awesome because the Awesome is a fat heavy eating up an assault slot.

However, given the choice between the Gaussaphract and the Gaussapult, most every tournament level team will go with the gaussapult despite the 'Phract's 5 extra tons because the Cat has a huge number of advantages on the 'Phract, namely the positioning of the guns, the superior hitboxes, and the much, MUCH better turning ability. The Jagermech -may- become a thing, as it's the same tonnage as the Cat with nice, high arm mounted weapons. It depends very heavily on it's hitboxes, it's torso twist, and any other chassis-specific quirks that determine if it unseats the Cat from the ballistics boat position. One one hand, it is an AA mech that -should- have an insane torso twist rate. On the other hand, the Cat is a second line fire support mech that can out twist everything in the game, so canon-logic has no place here.

EDIT: I take that back, what -can- save the Dragon/Awesome is the implementation of some kind of battle value system that would not pair a Dragon or Awesome against mechs that are infinitely superior to it (but much more expensive BV wise). Unless there is some restriction on what we can bring, we're always going to bring the best stuff. BV was about forcing you to cut corners in a few places to cover all of the bases on your team. Occasionally that meant bringing an Awesome to provide heavy fire support when you couldn't afford to bring an Atlas. As it stands right now, though, nothing will save the Dragon/Awesome.

Gaan Cathal, on 04 February 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

This. Asides from anything else, there's no reason why the Catapult should have a better torso twist than any other chicken-walker mech. They collectively have a better twist than humanoids because of the lack of arms, obviously, but a major disparity within that makes no sense. This is also true of the Stalker 3H (I think it's the 3H) which has a randomly-superior torso twist to the other variants of the same chassis.

It's the 3F, and the reason is that every other variant has identical or near identical hardpoints that do everything the 3F does but better.

Edited by Josef Nader, 04 February 2013 - 12:19 PM.

[Evil Acrylic]

I think they are fine damage wise, still I will admit the Twist is a little bit much.

If you read though this thread you will find the people that are complaining are only doing so about the K2 and A1 Versions. Now I have played the Catapult from the moment the founders closed beta opened and loved it. I mastered the A1, K2 and C4 then followed along with the game changes that have been going on. (I.E streak cat nerf.)

The K2 has not really changed as from the start it’s always been the AC fits that worked best. Now that the net code fix has altered the way PPC's function we are seeing them make a comeback.
The 6 PPC Stalker hitting a Catapult in the cockpit can really ruin your day.
Now for the A1 or the feared SRM Cat and ultimate close range brawler extraordinaire I’m thinking that the incorrect ECM is the biggest culprit. ECM has made LRM's obsolete what with them being very much hit and miss on damage because of the loss of reliable targeting. Streaks are in the same boat so what does that leave a missile only Catapult to Fit?
Yes SRM's.

Now in most cases you’ll find that an A1 driver is unreliable at actual targeting. Missing hitboxes and just firing at will. The ones that often dominate the field are the ones that have spent time learning where a target is going and leading it. What range they are most effective at fighting at and making judgements on who may be carrying a XL engine. (Which in my opinion is a Death Sentence.)

[Josef Nader]

I've said many times, I don't mind the Cat as a boat. The C1 and C4 are perfectly fine, as they force a mixed loadout, but the K2 has the only twin ST ballistic slots in the game and some really fantastic ST hitboxes and being able to pack 6 launchers on an A1 is incredibly powerful. I'm not saying that these builds are low-skill either. It takes a lot of skill to aim a 6Cat or a Gauss Cat or KC20 (the Raidboss (read: Streakcat) pre ECM is the one exception. Run forward at max engine speed. Acquire lock. Hold down M1. Win.).

What I'm saying is that among players of equal skill, the catapult wins more often than not. We may have chassis that we like more, but if I fought myself with one of me piloting a 'Phract and one of me piloting a 6Cat, my 6Cat would win, because I know how to take advantage of cover to close ground quickly, and the ability to make half a mech evaporate is really potent. On top of that, the Cat is just plain more maneuverable than the 'Phract, and that's something that I would ruthlessly exploit as a player. The ability to fire almost directly behind me is insanely useful.

This is really all about just toning down a phenomenal chassis in a way that doesn't hurt it's ability to keep doing what it's doing. A 6Cat would still make mechs in front of it evaporate, it would just take more work to keep things in front of it. The KC20 would still blast mechs to bits with a few volleys, but it would have to work harder to get those shots. The LRM cats (bless you guys) wouldn't even notice a difference unless they were getting harassed by pesky lights. It's subtle, but it'd make a big difference, I think.