84 replies to this topic

[Broceratops]

Sheraf, on 30 January 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

If you can already shoot a light with PPC, there is no need for this effect? They gonna die anyway.

not really, if they're in close it does very little

[Novawrecker]

Noth, on 30 January 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

No we are complaining because we keep getting bandaids for something that could be fixed and balanced by actually changing the issue rather than piling more on top of it in the hopes that it will go away. It is a poor way of balancing the game and doesn't fix the issues that people have with it.

Except that the bandaid you state you getting is to cover a scar soo small it doesn't warrent a bandaid. People have an issue with how ECM is balanced because they want a trump all answer to it. I highly doubt that will ever happen (hey, I can be wrong, but I still highly doubt it). Has anyone ever thought that maybe things are as they are due to what's to come? Nope. Looking a the greater picture is something most NEVER do, especially online. I'll admit that, although I do not know what exactly the greater picture is, the group I play with have speculated several possible outcomes and work on solutions to overcome that challenge should any of those possible scenarios arise.

There are plenty of players that deal with ECM in an effective manner. Said groups have even beaten teams with ECM advantages over them. With the upcomming changes stated, same said group of people are already in the midst of discussing ways to incorporating this to their strats. Why isn't everyone else doing the same instead of complaining "I can't do eet, it's tooo haaaaaarrrddd"?

Edited by Novawrecker, 30 January 2013 - 06:17 AM.

[mike29tw]

Novawrecker, on 30 January 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Except that the bandaid you state you getting is to cover a scar soo small it doesn't warrent a bandaid. People have an issue with how ECM is balanced because they want a trump all answer to it. I highly doubt that will ever happen (hey, I can be wrong, but I still highly doubt it). Has anyone ever thought that maybe things are as they are due to what's to come? Nope. Looking a the greater picture is something most NEVER do, especially online. I'll admit that, although I do not know what exactly the greater picture is, the group I play with have speculated several possible outcomes and work on solutions to overcome that challenge should any of those possible scenarios arise.

There are plenty of players that deal with ECM in an effective manner. Said groups have even beaten teams with ECM advantages over them. With the upcomming changes stated, same said group of people are already in the midst of discussing ways to incorporating this to their strats. Why isn't everyone else doing the same instead of complaining "I can't do eet, it's tooo haaaaaarrrddd"?

Probably because some of us cares more about good gameplay mechanic and balance rather than being a 1337 team that stomps everyone.

[Noth]

Novawrecker, on 30 January 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Excpet that the bandaid you state you getting is to cover a scar soo small it doesn't warrent a bandaid. People have an issue with how ECM is balanced because they want a trump all answer to it. I highly doubt that will ever happen (hey, I can be wrong, but I still highly doubt it). Has anyone ever thought that maybe things are as they are due to what's to come? Nope. Looking a the greater picture is something most NEVER do, especially online. I'll admit that, although I do not know what exactly the greater picture is, the group I play with have speculated several possible outcomes and work on solutions to overcome that challenge should any of those possible scenarios arise.

There are plenty of players that deal with ECM in an effective manner. Said groups have even beaten teams with ECM advantages over them. With the upcomming changes stated, same said group of people are already in the midst of discussing ways to incorporating this to their strats. Why isn't everyone else doing the same instead of complaining "I can't do eet, it's tooo haaaaaarrrddd"?

I have no issues dealing with ECM. I simply want a balanced game without reverting to rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock, etc.

It is a trump all card to two other things that needed to be fixed (Streaks and LRMs). Now that it is in we keep getting these bandaids that take more weight/slots/hardpoints/cbills/gxp to use and they are marginal in countering ECM. TAG is marginal unless you are fighting complete idiots. PPCs will only possibly counter the Atlas ECM and you will be lucky to touch an ECM light that plays with any mediocre skill. The module costs a lot and is an endgame item and raises your detection range a massive 70 meters .

The only thing that counters ECM like it counters other things is ECM itself.

Looking at the greater picture, ECM hasn't created any more tactics in the game nor has it created information warfare. It has made current tactics stupidly easy and encourages close combat even more than before. Information warfare has become ECM warfare. They keep adding bandaids to mitigate the issue but ignore the underlying problems causing those issues. It is bad balancing

Something is too strong when every mech that can carry it does carry it. They have even said this. There is not a single build that wouldn't give up something in order to mount an ECM. That is far too strong.

[Novawrecker]

In part, Noth, and note I say in part, I agree with some of you what you responds. I do not 100% agree, however, that the induction of ECM has failed to create more tactics or even make varations of certain current ones. The encouragement of brawl close engagement is a by product of ECM, but it is by mean not the only one as other styles have been resurfacing or making new appearances. People are figuring out ways to fight against ECM in game.

I will not disagree with you when you state ECM is very strong, but again I state it is not an end all game mechanic as people are comming up with innovating, and restructuring current/older, ways (along with making use of current and soon to be new tools/mechanics) to take on the ECM challenge.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Funny. This is exactly what I hoped how the modules should effect ECM targeting. Great. Now they need some kind of a similar buff for the BAP.

[Accursed Richards]

Noth, on 30 January 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

No we are complaining because we keep getting bandaids for something that could be fixed and balanced by actually changing the issue rather than piling more on top of it in the hopes that it will go away. It is a poor way of balancing the game and doesn't fix the issues that people have with it.

Not to mention which, it's another disadvantage to PUG's, as is any system where you must take X to counter Y if you just can't predict what you're getting in a team. Also, I'm curious if the people who thought up this change have tried to hit a light with a PPC, even post lag-shield. It's a nerf to the DDC Atlas, at least.

It is kind of confusing why there seems to be this huge aversion to just directly powering down ECM until it's on a par with other passive 1.5 ton / 2 critical / no hardpoint items. Because it's the only viable counter to streaks and LRM's? Then maybe streaks and LRM's need fixing in their own right.

[Tennex]

DocBach, on 29 January 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

Its really disappointing how bad Beagle's gotten the shaft in this game. All of its key uses have been stripped from it and given to modules.

they don't even try to make it seem like they care about balance.

[DocBach]

Novawrecker, on 30 January 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

Except that in this, case, that descript is almost a carbon copy from the texts.

Except for in this case, the "almost" you used in your statement makes it an untruth, and I actually posted the word for word description from the text in the post directly above yours.

Edited by DocBach, 30 January 2013 - 07:11 AM.

[Tennex]

Orzorn, on 29 January 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Depends on if you look at it from a letter or a rule perspective.

Rules wise, ECM doesn't effect a single missile system, only missile related systems; Artemis and NARC. Word wise, it does, but then again, you have to remember that LRMs aren't necessarily guided in Battletech (they sort of are. Its weird), although SSRMs are, and yet they aren't blocked by ECM either.

seems like PGI is just tossing all these convenient effects into these systems. to counter the broken things present in the game. causing things to be even more broken. downward spiral

ECM was never supposed to effect missile lock on.

PPC was never supposed to effect ECM

[Stormwolf]

They should have simply just made ECM like it is in the canon, it would have fixed everything.

[StalaggtIKE]

My initial thoughts: Games shall continue to center around ECM; controlling ECM superiority and canceling the enemy's ECM buffs.

Quote

Hitting an ECM enabled Mech with a PPC/ERPPC will disable the ECM functionality for 5 seconds.

The buff towards PPC will make lone ECM mechs even further vulnerable; nothing new here. As single ECM mechs have always been vulnerable and easy prey. A group of ECM mechs will not be affected due to stacking ECM.

Quote

Will now affect ECM by increasing the detectable/targetable range of an ECM equipped Mech.

The sensor buffs are too little and unnecessary. The very nature of modules being weightless means that anyone can carry them without much sacrifice (other than missing out on other modules). This means that anyone can mount the module for the radar boost, thus ECM mechs will continue to have radar superiority over non ECM mechs. See image below:

* By default ECM mechs have 600m radar advantage over non ECM mechs. The additional modules simply agitate the issue.

Paul said there would be possibly be small changes towards ECM. In the end there were no changes to ECM itself. Only buffs to previous techs. For the cost and weight, ECM will continue to be the hot ticket item. In anticipation of facing ECM, players will be coerced in equipping:

• TAG: if it wasn't for ECM this wouldn't even be used. Instead buff TAG in a way to make it useful despite ECM.
  
• PPC: We were promised EMP properties, which means it should be affecting several, if not all, electronics. Instead, it appears PPC will only become a full time ECM counter.
  
• Sensor modules: The whole module system works a lot like perks from CoD. You add some random buffs to your character, ie a bad system. 50m aren't changing anything. It is good to see that the sensor modules are now working against ECM, as was originally promised in the previous patch.

Again I say this kind of balancing, having the game revolve around ECM, is the wrong route to take. I can't be alone in thinking this is absurd. This is not the desired route I would have like to have seen taken. Oh, well this is better than nothing. We shall see how it plays out in a couple of weeks.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 30 January 2013 - 07:25 AM.

[Ngamok]

Broceratops, on 29 January 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

i like this. you can shoot a light with a ppc and then your lights can streak him up. or if your'e a stalker with streaks, do it yourself

this is actually a pretty big light ecm nerf imo. it makes them much more vulnerable in a brawl.

It's still hard to hit lights running around you consistantly but it's actually a bigger nerf to D-DC.

Tennex, on 30 January 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

seems like PGI is just tossing all these convenient effects into these systems. to counter the broken things present in the game. causing things to be even more broken. downward spiral

ECM was never supposed to effect missile lock on.

PPC was never supposed to effect ECM

PPC does have a EMP effect in TT.

[VXJaeger]

My guess is, that greatest effect of PPC countering ECM will be that "Stealth sneaking" under ECM-umbrella will be a hellofalot more difficult. One blast w/ PPC, and all umbrella hiding brawlers will show up in the radar at least for a while.
And information is ammunition

[KuruptU4Fun]

mike29tw, on 30 January 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

Probably because some of us cares more about good gameplay mechanic and balance rather than being a 1337 team that stomps everyone.

It doesn't take a l33t team to counter an ECM team, just communicate and use teamwork to beat them. Having small multiple ways to beat ECM means that one counter doesn't negate ECM and that 1 counter. Just like there are multiple ways to avoid LRM boating if you're aware of your surroundings. Duck and cover beats the full damage that LRM's can do every time.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 30 January 2013 - 07:31 AM.

[DocBach]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

It doesn't take a l33t team to counter an ECM team, just communicate and use teamwork to beat them. Having small multiple ways to beat ECM means that one counter doesn't negate ECM and that 1 counter. Just like there are multiple ways to avoid LRM boating if you're aware of your surroundings. Duck and cover beats the full damage that LRM's can do every time.

It's very rare that random players learning the game can communicate and use teamwork well enough to beat a coordinated ECM team. The current implementation has been a huge turn off to all of the players I've tried to introduce to this game, all of which who left after about five game saying "this game ******* sucks."

[Accursed Richards]

StalaggtIKE, on 30 January 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Again I say this kind of balancing, having the game revolve around ECM, is the wrong route to take. I can't be alone in thinking this is absurd. This is not the desired route I would have like to have seen taken. Oh, well this is better than nothing. We shall see how it plays out in a couple of weeks.

That's a good way of putting it. It's kind of inexplicable why a 1.5 ton / 2 crit item is suddenly the fulcrum around which the whole game is being balanced, with an increasing list of other stuff being defined solely by how it interacts with ECM? One easy-to-fit module should not be more influential than just about all other equipment in the game.

[KuruptU4Fun]

DocBach, on 30 January 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

It's very rare that random players learning the game can communicate and use teamwork well enough to beat a coordinated ECM team. The current implementation has been a huge turn off to all of the players I've tried to introduce to this game, all of which who left after about five game saying "this game ******* sucks."

IF people do nothing but PUG because they feel joining a group to fight in a team based game isn't to their liking then that's on them. In order to keep things imperfectly balanced in any MMO you can't have 1 thing that counters another completely. It negates using either entirely. If you can't use a component because everyone else will use it's counter then what's the point of having either component available to use in the first place anyways.

[KerenskyClone]

The PPC should affect the ECM, but 5 seconds is a little bit too much methinks.

I say give the PPC and ERPPC an EMP effect that lasts 2-3 seconds, that completely negates not only ECM but the entire electronics suite of the enemy mech, including the entire HUD, say like a scramble effect, you can still see the HUD but its in a 'shimmering' state. The radar should be disabled during this effect.

[Accursed Richards]

DocBach, on 30 January 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

It's very rare that random players learning the game can communicate and use teamwork well enough to beat a coordinated ECM team. The current implementation has been a huge turn off to all of the players I've tried to introduce to this game, all of which who left after about five game saying "this game ******* sucks."

As an experiment if I ever develop an online shooter game, I'll introduce the cheap Kill Anything Module. If another player looks at you for more than three seconds, they explode. I'm completely certain no matter how obviously unbalanced is is, the Kill Anything Module will have forum defenders saying it's perfectly balanced and counterable, and if you have problems with it, you just need to lrn2play lol.