203 replies to this topic

[Butane9000]

This is going to be awesome.

[KuruptU4Fun]

DocBach, on 30 January 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

With the TAG buff, how often do you see light 'Mechs employing it to spot for LRM boats? 9/10 times I see an LRM 'Mech standing in the open under an ECM umbrella of its own lasing its own targets with TAG. TAG range boosts, and the way LRM boats now play in a post-ECM environment, have made the individual spotter obsolete, as light 'Mechs are too busy trying to streak everything to death.

On the level of a PUG match I'll agree with your point as a whole, but if I'm playing with my team (and I'm rarely not as either a 2/ 3 or 4 man group) then we see the advantage of scouting for an LRM teammate.

[Flash Yoghurt]

I agree with Colonel Vinson (whom I had the joy of dropping with yesterday) on this. In competetive enviroments, which are the 8mans at the moment, ECM and direct fire is king, weather it is in Sniper- or Brawlfests and LRMs are never seen because they too, have basically become direct fire. Horribly slow and damage spreading directfire at that.

The ECM simply does way to much for its measly 1.5 tons and two slots (thats the same as an AMS + ammo which does FAR less) not even the "ECM is fine L2P" crowd can ignore this (though they usualy do).
All those bandaids applied to ECM dont do much besides making the game needlessly complicated (before you flame me with "dumbing down" comments see the word "needlessly").
This is especially the case for light mech mounted ECM as anybody who can reliably hit a Raven or Commando with a PPC every 5 seconds has no need for any ECM counter and I doubt there are many Pilots able to pull off this feet consistantly.

I hope that the ECM disruption is just a nice addon to the PPCs (who culd become viable depending on the amount of heatreduction they are getting) and not one of the proposed "counters" to ECM which have all been largely useless in this role.

[Shredhead]

StalaggtIKE, on 30 January 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

Thank you for replying. I find that most ECM counter tactics basically boils down to one thing: out playing the foe. Most people describe the perfect ECM counter from the stand point that the ECM user will make stupid mistakes, like rushing in or becoming disorganized. Perhaps this is the typical scenario for you and your unit, you sound like a pretty organized bunch. However, if the ECM user plays at an equal or better skill level than you, you shall be beaten. Due to his superior tech. The truth is there is no counter to ECM. It breaks missile locks, denies damage info to enemies and disrupt minimap. This is not so much an issue for someone that plays with a regular group over TS. Yet for a weekend pugger, this is devastating. Simple organized attacks become harder to orchestrate minus call letters, damage info and location of friends and foe.

Yes, I totally agree that PuGs are at a disadvantage there, that's why I addressed units and TS users particularly. They need to implement a VOIP solution sooner rather than later. There's also hope that the ELO system will help balancing this, as ECM users should be higher up the ladder than newbies.
About the tactics, outplaying the enemy is the goal of every good tactic. ECM added to the challenge because of the points you mentioned. It always comes down to finding the sweet spot and maintaining the discipline, and there will always be people that are equal or better than you. That's the enemy you have to match and overcome the next time.

Quote

I completely agree with you here. LRM was simply a support tool for disrupting snipers and a noob killer. It was marginally useful at best; had limited usefulness on Caustic Valley. Which is why I hate the fact ECM hard counters it. As you said ECM gives people a false sense of security, thus resulting in stupid mistakes. I find this to be conducive to the overall enjoyment of the game. I enjoy a challenge and the increase of stupid maneuvers makes the game less rewarding and boring.

Yeah, but you know:

[Magik0012]

I haven't read all 7 pages.. but what if a PPC hit had a CHANCE (20% ?) at causing some crit damage (20% ?) to the ECM component?

Not 1-hit 1-kill, but if an ECM mech get pasted 5+ times, there is a chance it could blow out his ECM hardware?

Just a thought.

[Scrawny Cowboy]

The PPC EMP effect was suggested and confirmed to be added long before ECM. Once it was actually tagged on the Content Road Map, it was then discussed here on the forums that it could be a coutermeasure against ECM. I even suggested in one of the threadsthat PPC's that struck the crit location should have a chance destroying it.

I'm on my phone right now, but later I'll look up and link the exact threads.

[DocBach]

PPC's interrupting HUD have been part of the MechWarrior (though not necessarily BattleTech) universe since MW3. It's a cool side effect and a way to make PPC's more useful than they are, but the addition of EMP shouldn't be the end of balance for the ECM. It really needs to be reevaluated and MWO is losing tons of potential players and revenue the longer they ignore it.

[Jacmac]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 30 January 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

Again, it is important, this is based on 8v8 gameplay, not pubbing or 4 man rolling. 8 man showcases where the minmax game is going, and eventually the pubs will get there too.

Maybe the 4-mans will at some point. My current belief is that 4-mans are simply a playground for leveling up the mechs you don't want to play or can't play in an 8-man. PGI cites the low ECM numbers in 4-mans as a example of the problem fading. The reality is that 4-mans would have the same issue as 8-mans are having if there was no 8-mans. The only reason ECM is not seen as much in 4-mans is because many players are trying to level their mechs so that they can have a mastered ECM mech. That and many are simply tired of being forced to play down to the level of the min-max bum-rush fire drill that defines most of the 8-man matches.

Edited by Jacmac, 30 January 2013 - 09:04 AM.

[DocBach]

Jacmac, on 30 January 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

That and many are simply tired of being force to play the min-max bum-rush fire drill that defines most of the 8-man matches.

Pretty much describes what happened in the unit I play with. The game at its competitive levels just isn't fun with how easily it is to abuse the system.

[Five oh Five Squat]

I'm interested to see how a chain firing PPC boat will effect the meta game. Especially since it will knock out counter ECM as well.

[StalaggtIKE]

Shredhead, on 30 January 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

Yes, I totally agree that PuGs are at a disadvantage there, that's why I addressed units and TS users particularly. They need to implement a VOIP solution sooner rather than later. There's also hope that the ELO system will help balancing this, as ECM users should be higher up the ladder than newbies.

The need to implement VOIP or using ELO to rank ECM higher; that sounds like treating the symptoms instead of the cause. The fact is some people can't use VOIP. Should they just be destined to fail? Doing so would be a disaster from a business standpoint, especially for a f2p model. I want MWO to succeed so they best wise up. I foresee hope once the ELO system has been implemented, people will be playing closer to their skill level and realize the imbalance in advantage, ECM provides.

Quote

About the tactics, outplaying the enemy is the goal of every good tactic. ECM added to the challenge because of the points you mentioned. It always comes down to finding the sweet spot and maintaining the discipline, and there will always be people that are equal or better than you. That's the enemy you have to match and overcome the next time.

Yes, but in equal skill levels, tonnage for tonnage, ECM grants too many pros and not enough cons. Do your 8 man drop regularly use ECM? Have you all faced ECM abundant 8 man teams? I'd like for you to try the following:

• face a team that you are generally equal in skill level (you win about 50%, they win about the other 50%)
  
• go a couple of rounds without ECM versus their ECM and vice-versa
  
• see if you notice if ECM sway a round in someones' favor.
  
• reflect on if you had the ability to equip ECM on any mech would you without question do so.

ECM is beatable, but it is not balanced.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 30 January 2013 - 09:09 AM.

[Barghest Whelp]

Suprentus, on 29 January 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

Huh, I must have forgotten the time they added an anti-ECM feature to PPCs before.

Oh, and no it isn't. Why do people like using that definition so much? It really makes no sense, and it's totally untrue.
http://www.psycholog...ion-insanity-is

Yeah, well see what you and that other guy whom wrote that article seem to have missed, is the fact that it comes from the lyrics of a song written by the punk rock band: the hives.

If you had taken that in to consideration you would probably agree that the saying is quite fitting, or at the very least, amusing.

That is all. You may now resume doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

[StalaggtIKE]

Barghest Whelp, on 30 January 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

Yeah, well see what you and that other guy whom wrote that article seem to have missed, is the fact that it comes from the lyrics of a song written by the punk rock band: the hives.

If you had taken that in to consideration you would probably agree that the saying is quite fitting, or at the very least, amusing.

That is all. You may now resume doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

TIL...,

[Shredhead]

StalaggtIKE, on 30 January 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

The need to implement VOIP or using ELO to rank ECM higher; that sounds like treating the symptoms instead of the cause. The fact is some people can't use VOIP. Should they just be destined to fail? Doing so would be a disaster from a business standpoint, especially for a f2p model. I want MWO to succeed so they best wise up. I foresee hope once the ELO system has been implemented, people will be playing closer to their skill level and realize the imbalance in advantage, ECM provides.

I wouldn't treat the announced stuff as the end of all balancing ECM will get. It's definitely a big problem to do this while there are other elements obscuring the test data. Netcode was fixed only one week ago, so my guess is they still have to analyse the data to make the next attempts. You shouldn't also underestimate the already implemented counters: fast medium and heavy mechs. The DC is a clunky piece of metal, easily outplayed by faster mechs, and since the netcode fix lights can be hunted down easily by said mechs.

Quote

Yes, but in equal skill levels, tonnage for tonnage, ECM grants too many pros and not enough cons. Do your 8 man drop regularly use ECM? Have you all faced ECM abundant 8 man teams? I'd like for you to try the following:

• face a team that you are generally equal in skill level (you win about 50%, they win about the other 50%)
  
• go a couple of rounds without ECM versus their ECM and vice-versa
  
• see if you notice if ECM sway a round in someones' favor.
  
• reflect on if you had the ability to equip ECM on any mech would you without question do so.

ECM is beatable, but it is not balanced.

Atm that's nigh impossible to try. We have some relations to other units, but those aren't at our level yet, and with those who beat us we have no contact. The missing possibilities (like post-match chat etc.) have seen to this.
But I will keep this in mind and try once we get the chance.

[Solis Obscuri]

Orzorn, on 30 January 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Yeah, we did adapt and overcome. We drop LRMs like they were hot rocks and switched to direct firing solutions. Why use a weapon system that ECM directly counters? Why dedicate TAG spotters or use your energy slots for it? If you've got line of sight for TAG, then you've got line of sight for gauss.

ECM makes me sick because it takes a huge part of the game out and replaces it with gimmicks and wet noodle attempts at balance. ECM dumbs down the game.

Its really all you see; people talking about how to get around ECM, how the new light sucks without ECM, how streaks without ECM on your mech are a waste, how LRM boats need to keep one ton available for TAG, etc etc.

The fact of the matter is that ECM is the most powerful item in the game at 1.5 tons, goes on only 5 variants, and yet dominates the metagame and dictates what you should and should not bring.

AMS never did this to LRMs. The worst you had is that your LRM 5s became bad when AMS was around, but LRMs could still be used just fine. ECM? It kills the spotter game. LRM boats just use their own TAG. It effectively kills LRMs as indirect fire weapons, as well, so then why even bring LRMs to the fight and bother with the liability? ECM creates a dangerous interaction with streaks, where lights with ECM can use streaks with impunity, and lights without cannot.

ECM dumbs down the game by restricting the metagame. It does not diversify it.

QFE Hit it on the head, Orzorn.

[Karl Marlow]

Look at it this way. Currently PPCs do not do anything to an enemy mechs ECM. Come this next patch they will drop it on that one mech got 5 seconds. It's an additional option we didn't have before.

Yeah your doom scenarios can happen and if I was able to tag Light mechs with any consistency with a PPC I wouldn't really be all that worried about weather my PPC's are dropping the ECM or not. However against that Lone DDC who is sitting back raining down LRMS or who is slowly advancing on you with all kinda of nastiness pointed your way. It's kinda nice to be able to tag him wiht a PPC shot so the rest of my buddies can find him easier and maybe bring down some rain.

What I am interested to know is if the PPC can do this disruption when it is within 90 meters

Edited by ThomasMarik, 30 January 2013 - 01:22 PM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

And once they realize that PPCs are not a reasonable counter to ECM (especially for light mechs) they will introduce the DARC missile beacon which is just a NARC missile beacon that shoots ECM missile in counter mode, creating an ECM dead zone on the map (at 1.5 tons and 100K for a full-blown ECM, anti-ECM counters are probably cheaper than LRM ammo)

And if that doesn't work, we can find the next least frequently used weapon and make it an ECM counter, can you imagine anti ECM flamers.

[Solis Obscuri]

Five oh Five Squat, on 30 January 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

I'm interested to see how a chain firing PPC boat will effect the meta game. Especially since it will knock out counter ECM as well.

Good point, I don't think most people have considered that.

[StalaggtIKE]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 30 January 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

And once they realize that PPCs are not a reasonable counter to ECM (especially for light mechs) they will introduce the DARC missile beacon which is just a NARC missile beacon that shoots ECM missile in counter mode, creating an ECM dead zone on the map (at 1.5 tons and 100K for a full-blown ECM, anti-ECM counters are probably cheaper than LRM ammo)

And if that doesn't work, we can find the next least frequently used weapon and make it an ECM counter, can you imagine anti ECM flamers.

Oh, God. It's sad because it's true.

[Tie Ma]

they took about a month to test these PPC changes/counter. just like they took a month to balance ECM.

so you know it will come out like ****.