203 replies to this topic

[Ravn]

Suprentus, on 29 January 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Scissors are OP. Don't buff rock, just nerf scissors.

Xenosphobatic, on 29 January 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

But Paper is OP and undetectable!

No guys. Just expand the angle limit at witch scissors can notch paper from between 45-47 degrees to 45-49 degrees, but only if you have the special scissor grip you get after cutting hundreds of pieces of paper.

Edited by Ravn, 29 January 2013 - 09:40 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Vanguard319, on 29 January 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

The only people who would be upset with this news are the idiots who can't bother to aim, let alone shoot straight. For the one's complaining because it only disables ECM for 5 seconds, get a clue. It's a soft counter, it's not meant to permanently disable the other guy's ECM, it's meant to open a window in which you can fire missiles. If your spotters are doing thier jobs, indirect fire should be possible again with LRMs. If you are carrying streaks, you now have a window where you can lock on and fire.

seriously, you ingrates can't be pleased with anything.

For streaks, your window is 70 meters with millions of cbills worth of modules.

For PPC, yeah, great effect, I like it. But lets not forget that the PPC is a 7 ton direct fire weapon. So Basically the PPC is now a 7 ton TAG, that when it hits 1 ECM mech, it counter that ECM mechs ECM for 5 seconds.

Not too many scouts carry PPC. Hitting lights with PPC's is not fun, and so we just have another direct fire long range counter to ECM, which does little to nothing to solve the problem of 6 ECM mechs on one team, or even 2-3 ECM mechs that bubble the group, unless all 3 are dumb enough to get hit by PPC fire ever 5 seconds.

Again, I like the PPC addition, but in terms of fixing what ECM has done to the game regarding radar, how BAP/NARC remain worthless tonnage, and LRMS are now direct fire guns rather than indirect fire flushers, no, I honestly don't see this helping the problem very much at all - the problem continuing to be ECM stacking which we only primarily see in the end result min/maxing that happens in 8v8 pre-mades.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 29 January 2013 - 09:46 PM.

[Stanton Langley]

Temporary active counter that can miss, weighs 6 tons and only affect one target at a time versus a permanent passive ability that can't miss and hits all targets in range weighing 1.5 tons. It sounds lopsided, but since the net code fix it might be enough of a soft counter to make things close enough to equal.

[Solis Obscuri]

Stanton Langley, on 29 January 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

Temporary active counter that can miss, weighs 6 tons and only affect one target at a time versus a permanent passive ability that can't miss and hits all targets in range weighing 1.5 tons. It sounds lopsided, but since the net code fix it might be enough of a soft counter to make things close enough to equal.

7 tons

[DocBach]

Hey, you can also pay 12,000,000 c-bills and 20,000 GXP for two modules that can buff your lock on range for ECM 'Mechs from 200 to 270 meters if the PPC buff isn't enough balance for you.

[Zaptruder]

The real problem is that people believe that ECM is in the game to buff specific mech chassis like an extra weapon hardpoint or something.

Yes, it buffs the mechs that it goes on, but it also brings a much needed tactical dimension to the game that was a gaping hole before.

The meta-counter to over ECM population is that they're limited to certain chassis. It gets boring running those mechs forever - so not everyone will use them even if everyone has them.

So long as the advantages are not so overwhelming; with these buffs and counters, the advantage that ECM gives any mech chassis will be naturally counterbalanced by the fact that people prioritize you as a target... and with PPCs can now do something about that in a very direct manner.

[Novawrecker]

Khobai, on 29 January 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

PPCs will not counter ECM. Because when youre sniping with PPCs from 1000m away you cant even see what youre shooting at. Its just a blue splotch on thermal vision. So how are you gonna pinpoint ECM mechs at that distance if you cant even see what youre shooting at?

ECM needs to be nerfed and PGI just need to realize the majority of their player base wants ECM nerfed.

Eh? Kobai, with the changes coming to PPCs, if you smack someone 1km away with a PPC be it via hitting the blue splotch due to thermal vision or otherwise, you will have an opportunity to see what it is and get info, and make quick judgements from there.

Agreed that ECCM is the effect counter, but it is (now) not the only tool to use to circumvent ECM (even if slightly).

The ECM is very strong atm, admitedly. But it is not end all game. People have continued to work effectively around ECM (with or without ECCM) for a bit now.

Kyone Akashi, on 29 January 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

The PPCs anti-ECM effect will work nicely against a huge and slow Atlas, but I very much doubt it will do much against the small and nimble Lights

I don't agree with you 100% as there are other methods to handle lights with ECM, and now with the addition of PPC snipers. Granted it is the harder of all the anti-ecm methods, but still viable.

Sarda, on 29 January 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Are you kidding me? What is this going to do vs lights with ecm. Please, show me the PPC Wizard that can hit a small *** mech at 500m - off running serpentine at break neck speed.

Gladly. There are plenty of players out there that can, and will, do it. It make take us a few shots, but we will hit you.

Edited by Novawrecker, 29 January 2013 - 10:23 PM.

[Thorqemada]

PPC and sensor range increase will work best against the D-DC.
The Lights + Cicada will be almost unaffected - they dictate the range as the fastest Mechs ingame and its impossible to maintain the specific target window even for other Lights.

TAG should be an individual counter to ecm.
PPC - the anti ECM effect is neat (though its again a counter that is so way way way harder to use than ECM).
Weapon Locks should work when the LOS is good but for a time penalty against ECM users - the LRM spread should be huge.
Bap should increase the ECM edge target window further.
Narc should make missiles home in if they have no lock, if ECM is affecting it the missiles spread should become huge (like a 70% miss chance).
The ECM+1 rule should get dumped - ECM should counter the targeted Mech regardless how many enemy ECM is in the vincinity.
IFF should not be affected as there is no other visual differentation between an enemy Death Knell and a friendly Death Knell.

Mechwarrior is no guessing game who is friend and who is foe!
Its only a guessing game where the foe is and what loadout they bring.

Edited by Thorqemada, 29 January 2013 - 10:45 PM.

[Soulscour]

Tarman, on 29 January 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

That sounds like.... what could be tactics. But tactics are OP! Cheater.

Stacking all ECM mechs and staying as one big group is not what I consider tactics. It is too simplified. When you take a weapon or component and mass use it to get a huge advantage over the other team I don't consider it to be tactics and consider it more to be cheese. The game should allow for players to use non cheese mech compositions and still be at fair odds.

[Bishop Steiner]

Zaptruder, on 29 January 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

The real problem is that people believe that ECM is in the game to buff specific mech chassis like an extra weapon hardpoint or something.

Yes, it buffs the mechs that it goes on, but it also brings a much needed tactical dimension to the game that was a gaping hole before.

The meta-counter to over ECM population is that they're limited to certain chassis. It gets boring running those mechs forever - so not everyone will use them even if everyone has them.

So long as the advantages are not so overwhelming; with these buffs and counters, the advantage that ECM gives any mech chassis will be naturally counterbalanced by the fact that people prioritize you as a target... and with PPCs can now do something about that in a very direct manner.

Zap.. you play in any "pro-gamer" leagues, or against said groups? Doesn't matter how boring you or I find something, those groups exist solely to min/max everything, which is why they run the exact same things over and over again. All that matters to that group is "winning". They are like the Charlie Sheen of video games, and the concept of challenging oneself and trying new stuff is alien.. because the twitch gamers they play against can't grasp said concept either.

It ain't everyone, but believe me, as long as ECM stays like it is, the 8 man drops will still be loaded with 6 DDC/2 Raven groups.

[Mr Mantis]

I like it because it makes ppc more viable weapons, it will be a bad patch though because everyone will be sporting ppc. Can't wait to come over the hill and get hit with 5 ppc blasts from 3 different directions . May have to hold back a bit with my scouting until that cools down.

[Tarman]

Soulscour, on 29 January 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

Stacking all ECM mechs and staying as one big group is not what I consider tactics. It is too simplified. When you take a weapon or component and mass use it to get a huge advantage over the other team I don't consider it to be tactics and consider it more to be cheese. The game should allow for players to use non cheese mech compositions and still be at fair odds.

He was pointing out the move and the weaknesses, while considering how to exploit it to his advantage while the enemy thinks superbubble is going to save him. I'd call that tactics, yes. Not the bubble, the recognition that it could be used by his enemies and that it should be figured out now rather than when you run up on it dirtside. I want this guy in my CW war room.

Edited by Tarman, 30 January 2013 - 12:31 AM.

[mike29tw]

Tennex, on 29 January 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

the current solution seems like a lazy 2 for 1 deal.

that way paul doesn't have to brain too hard about how to actually fix ecm and PPCs.

hopefully thats not true though. and this was just a nice information warfare addition, on top of already planned nerfs and buffs respectively for these items.

And the scary thing is this might be true.

Remember how ECM is introduced to "fix" streaks and LRMs and underpowered(lol) chassis ?

[Greg Atlas]

Solis Obscuri, on 29 January 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

A thought occurs to me - if a PPC hit only disables the ECM in one enemy 'mech, isn't that just an incentive to bring more ECM 'mechs for redundancy?
Hitting the on the hill D-DC won't do anything to the 3L behind the rise next to him. Likewise, hitting just one of the 3Ls or 2Ds swarming over you with Streaks still won't take down the cloak effect.
ECM really remains the only counter to ECM.

I personally agree that this will not fix the problem(s), but as many others have mentioned, it seems to be a potentially valid side effect of what the weapon should be doing.

Quote

PPCs fire a concentrated stream of protons or ions at a target, causing damage through both thermal and kinetic energy. As such, despite being an energy weapon, it produces recoil. The lethality of the weapon rivals that of a higher-caliber autocannon; just three shots from a PPC will vaporize two tons of standard military-grade armor. Targets hit by multiple, simultaneous PPCs can also suffer electrical side-effects, such as overloaded computer systems or targeting sensors. The ion beam also extends to much farther ranges than autocannon fire, though PPCs generate large amounts of waste heat.

- http://www.sarna.net/wiki/PPC
While it doesn't say ECM specifically is disrupted, I do believe that the potential is there under the assumption of simultaneous strikes. Physics wise this could be disputed for the same reason myomer isn't affected: Armour and internal structure provide high conductivity/low resistance to ground sources thus acting as a Faraday cage protecting any insulated electronic equipment. PPC's electricity does not have any effect on myomer's "nervous system" (for lack of better terms) because it is a high resistance material and electricity takes the path of least resistance. That being said though, computer systems are quite a bit more sensitive and obviously don't require nearly as much electricity to operate, but the dispute can still be valid since I would assume any designer would take these kinds of conditions where artificial lightning is the norm and would build in insulation.

My Libra brain can throw around theories all day, but in the end if PGI thinks it is one of many potential counters while they're trying to balance ECM, I say give it a shot. Now if only they would shoot in a straight direction rather than careening off to the side similar to what you see in the original trailer. I haven't hit with a single PPC despite having immobile targets and I myself was immobile and had clear line of sight with plenty of time to aim. I have no idea why they would fly off to the side like that unless something is broken in the code.

Edited by Greg Atlas, 30 January 2013 - 06:19 AM.

[TexAce]

Just a thought:

what if the ecm disrupting effect of the PPC is not limited to the mech it's hitting but spreads like....50 meters around it and effects every other mech, too? Not just when hitting the target but also during flight? affecting everything in his flight-path?

Meaning you don't need to hit the super fast 3L with it, just aim at the ground next to him....

it's a freakin lightning bolt, it should pack a punch!

That would be cool...

Edited by TexAss, 30 January 2013 - 06:35 AM.

[SpiralRazor]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 January 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

Zap.. you play in any "pro-gamer" leagues, or against said groups? Doesn't matter how boring you or I find something, those groups exist solely to min/max everything, which is why they run the exact same things over and over again. All that matters to that group is "winning". They are like the Charlie Sheen of video games, and the concept of challenging oneself and trying new stuff is alien.. because the twitch gamers they play against can't grasp said concept either.

It ain't everyone, but believe me, as long as ECM stays like it is, the 8 man drops will still be loaded with 6 DDC/2 Raven groups.

Now that ive had time to think about it and read more posts, Id have to agree with your assessment.

[Orzorn]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 29 January 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

Again, I like the PPC addition, but in terms of fixing what ECM has done to the game regarding radar, how BAP/NARC remain worthless tonnage, and LRMS are now direct fire guns rather than indirect fire flushers, no, I honestly don't see this helping the problem very much at all - the problem continuing to be ECM stacking which we only primarily see in the end result min/maxing that happens in 8v8 pre-mades.

And that's really the crux of the issue, isn't it? If we have direct line of sight to use these "counters", then why aren't we just boating ballistics or something that will gib the ECM user faster and more reliable than LRMs, what with their 100 m/s speed?

As for the EMP effect, why doesn't it also effect BAP? I guess they thought, because ECM already does that, they didn't want to hit BAP, the redheaded step child of EW, more than it already has been.

Seems like they forgot it even existed.

Edited by Orzorn, 30 January 2013 - 06:39 AM.

[Z0MBIE Y0SHI]

I think this was more of a 'How can we make PPC's more useful?' rather then a 'How can we balance ECM?'

Edited by Z0MBIE Y0SHI, 30 January 2013 - 06:40 AM.

[Orzorn]

Z0MBIE Y0SHI, on 30 January 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

I think this was more of a 'How can we make PPC's more useful?' rather then a 'How can we balance ECM?'

That is what I've thought as well. I've said it a few times before, but they mentioned adding an EMP effect before they EVER admitted that ECM was "overly strong" and that they were doing something about it.

I don't think this is all, but I do think that they're going to wait a bit and see how this affects ECM before implementing any other changes to ECM itself.

But also like I said above, why doesn't the EMP also stop BAP? Well, probably because the poor thing is already bad enough as is.

[Henree]

BAP works? thought it was a placeholder.