76 replies to this topic

[Dark Shaman of Clan Ghost Bear]

"Medium Mechs range from 40 to 59.9 tons. They form the fighting bulk of the House Armies and the majority of mercenary 'mech companies across the Inner Sphere. Some carry a single heavy weapon while others use a variety of weapons, although there's not much allowance for a large arsenal on such a small frame. Mechs of this weight class generally average around the 50 ton range, and are cost-effective in that they are cheap enough to mass produce, but potent enough to do the majority of the tasks required of a 31st Century mechwarrior."


Medium Mechs. They form the bulk of most Mech armies.
Would you say this is true in MWO?

There is no incentive to play as a Medium Mech, especially since there is unrestricted use of heavier Mechs. Why would you pilot something that has half the weapons and a quarter of the armor of an Assault Mech?

MWO needs to bring back Medium Mech Love. There are plenty of ways to encourage players to master this 'bulk force' weight range.
- Lessen rewards gained by using uncommon and rare weight classes outside of Medium.
Medium Mechs may gain earnings on a 1:1 ratio, Lights and Heavies drop down to a 0.8:1, and the rare Assaults down to 0.6:1 for earnings.
- Give a Mech-use "cooldown" for weight classes outside of Medium.
Larger or smaller Mechs may have a 1-2 turn Lockout Period while they get repaired, while Mediums can 'jump into action' turn after turn without delay. Alternatively, make repairing a necessary option again, making Mediums the most 'cost effective' to repair.
- Produce more Medium Mech models for players to pilot. Stop bringing out Heavies, Assaults, and Lights; and when you do bring them out emphasise the specialness of owning one of these unique machines. Mediums form the bulk of Mech production. make it so.


Just a little side-thought to add for game balance, points and earnings, and gameplay overall.

MWO is currently a slugfest. The more damage you do, the more weapons you can Boat, the better. This is supposed to be a First Person Mechwarrior game. Unless you're the fastest 'Capper' or a powerful weapon boat, you have little chance of survival. You do occasionally see some Brawlers, and it's a rare treat to be in a small unit of tactical players who know how to harass and separate enemy units from each other, but overall this game has no combat balance.
A few solutions and ideas.
- More emphasis on skill in game, rather than points for "kills".
Think about Mech salvage. Destroying the Core and expensive components is not very cost effective, especially for Inner Sphere Merc units. Blindly shooting at a Mech and coring it to death is no reflection on skill at all. Diminished points rewards for destroying an engine should be implemented.
Players who disable a Mech could offer the opponent a 'surrender' option. If the enemy fails to surrender, then you can destroy his Mech without an earnings penalty. If he agress to surrender, he 'dies' but your team gains a bonus, and his Mech permanantly shuts down for the rest of the match.
Adding a 'lockout' period for letting your Mech be destroyed would encourage players to surrender if they're beat up too badly and close to death.
- Encourage players to operate Stock Versions of Mechs, rather than weapon stripping a Mech and producing Jenners with PPCs, Catapult K-2s into Gaussscats, and otherwise turning a Mech design upside-down to mimic another style of Mech.
I'm all for Tweaking. Adding a few points of armor here, and swapping out a laser for a bigger one there is fun. But Min/Maxing isn't what Mechwarrior is supposed to be.
The engineers who designed your Mech in the first place knew they couldn't 'Boat' all the best weapons onto one Mech. It would be too unweildy, too expensive, too much Heat inefficiency. Their layouts and design is for a reason: there are limits to what your Mech can do. Clearly we don't know what those limits are, and that's why my little Jenner can sport two ER PPCs on it's tiny little frame.
Hardpoint weapons configuration- weight limits, weapon type definitions. Having a loadout flexibility clarification would help reduce boating and preserve the style of each Mech in operation.

Thank you for reading this, and provide feedback if you can.

[arghmace]

1) Mediums should have better slope movement than heavies. Right now a 70 ton Cataphract climbs hills as well as a 45 ton Blackjack. This is completely outrageous.
2) Mediums should have slightly better acceleration and turning to make them more agile compared to heavies.
3) Mediums should have smaller frames. Mech size scaling in MWO is bollocks. Basically only lights are small and all the other mechs are equally huge.

[BillyM]

I have stated for MONTHS that making mediums the economic best-choice would see a resurgence in their use.

...heck, it's the reason I started running Hunchbacks when RnR existed: I could get blown to bits and still afford to fix it after a loss with no premium time. That assault LRM boat with a XL engine couldn't say the same... Once heavier chassis and XL engines became a free-ride and payout was effectively based upon how much damage you could do, everyone jumped on the bandwagon.

I agree fully with arghmace as well in that mediums need to have much improved mobility to make them viable. Accel/decel is worse in my HBK than in my Cataphract due to engine size, yet my Cataphract can easily lay down 30% more sustained DPS and take 40% more damage.

Bring back mediums, hit those assault pilots where it hurts (in the wallet), and give the mediums some more quirks.

--billyM

[Bagheera]

arghmace, on 14 July 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

1) Mediums should have better slope movement than heavies. Right now a 70 ton Cataphract climbs hills as well as a 45 ton Blackjack. This is completely outrageous.
2) Mediums should have slightly better acceleration and turning to make them more agile compared to heavies.
3) Mediums should have smaller frames. Mech size scaling in MWO is bollocks. Basically only lights are small and all the other mechs are equally huge.

This guy gets it. Particularly on points 1 & 2. Scaling is off on many mechs, but Hunchie feels the right size and so does Cicada.

[WildeKarde]

You can't put the genie back in so they say. R&R might have been a discouragement at one time but now players tend to have enough cash to take the risk of a complete wipeout for the chance to get a steamrolled game.

I don't think money is going to be a factor in mediums being played more. Better stats on the mechs might, same with limits on mech weights may as well.

[BillyM]

You've got enough c-bills to buy all variants of the project phoenix mechs and build them out?

...if not, you'd be more likely to run a medium and less likely to run an assault if there were a 40% pay variance, don't you think?

--billyM

[C E Dwyer]

I think if RnR came back numbers would drop, people have stables of heavy and assault mechs now and to be told hey we're changing the rules so you can only use them if you generate enough cash, if it had been inplace, and kept in place fair enough but tomany people have spent hours grinding or RL cash buying.

other ways need to be thought of

arghmace's idea is the closest to sensible, so unlikely to be adopted.

failing that queing the matches but this I think will also end up in a long term drop in pug numbers, which will have effects on game profits and its long term health

[WildeKarde]

BillyM, on 14 July 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

You've got enough c-bills to buy all variants of the project phoenix mechs and build them out?

...if not, you'd be more likely to run a medium and less likely to run an assault if there were a 40% pay variance, don't you think?

--billyM

Me? No I've not. In fact I only have 10 mechs and 5 of them are mediums. Think I only own two XL engines as well.

But TBH a reduced payout wouldn't make me choose one mech over another. I was talking more on the players who owns 30 or 40 mechs (maybe more), likely play in a group over PUG's. They would still pick a six PPC stalker over a medium just to get the win.

If you were also playing 20/30/40 games in a day then the wins would be better for you regardless of a lower payout.

[Neput Z34]

"Workhorse of the Intersphere" = Cannon Fodder

[Xie Belvoule]

If you think making Mediums pay out more C-Bills will help them your crazy. Im currently swimming in a Scrooge McDuck pile of C-Bills, I can run Assaults indefinitely.

Edited by Xie Belvoule, 14 July 2013 - 12:04 PM.

[Sir Ratburger]

My cicidas are pretty amazing and I always get a few kills in them ... taken down many a heavy and assault - the only reason? Because they are fast (140kph) I don't know how the slower mediums like the blackjack survive.

[Percimes]

As I see it, what is making medium mechs not desirable is that they don't have a role in which they excel in the current gameplay. At the moment you either do damage or cap base/ressource points. Medium aren't the best in either role, they can offer support on both but people tend to prefer specialized roles over versatility.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Slow down Heavies and oh look, Mediums become viable again.

Why play a Medium when you can go 75+kph in a bigger, more well armored, heavier hitting mech?

[Goose]

To over simplify it, Teh Devs have been choosing heavy substitutes to fill the medium class with. The Trebuchet is the closest to what a medium should be, having the biggest engine(s) of the 50-tonners, but few seem inspired to play it.

Maybe you should wait for the Shadow Hawk to get here …

Edited by Goose, 14 July 2013 - 12:52 PM.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Drop-limits for assaults and lights. Yes even to the point that player X can't drop in his assaults because there is no game available. Or the 4-man premade with it's 4 assaults wont find a game. It's harsh, but it's the only way to maintain balance in a game that allows group drops.

There are many coop games out there that are limited to roles or classes. Each player fill a class, they can't all drop with the same. It works!

But as long as it is potentially possible to drop in a game with 8 Atlas, there will never ever be balance.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Goose, on 14 July 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

To over simplify it, Teh Devs have been choosing heavy substitutes to fill the medium class with. The Trebuchet is the closest to what a medium should be, having the biggest engine(s) of the 50-tonners, but few seem inspired to play it.

Maybe you should wait for the Shadow Hawk to get here …

1 Viable Medium doesnt make all the others viable though.
I'm sure the S Hawk will be good, but Mediums are generally inferior to Heavies, like you said, and thats the real problem.

I only play my Cent or HBK when I want a challenge

[Goose]

There's no point to making the other, current, mediums "viable." That is a Hunchback.

When you mount a 350XL in one, you knew two things: A ) This was some kind of Wraith substitue, and B ) Engine limits where coming, 'cause the hard-point system was there to breed verity, and verity is there to create chassis sales.

It's interesting how the Cent got an engine boost later in life, but in the main, you're gon'a have to wait for what you're looking for to come down the pike …

Edited by Goose, 14 July 2013 - 01:14 PM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Goose, on 14 July 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

There's no point to making the other, current, mediums "viable." That is a Hunchback.

Uhh, yes there is?
To make sure 5 of the games mechs are actually usable and useful?
The Cent got an Engine rating boost that derped its firepower.

Going faster isn't always the answer, which is why if anything, Heavies should slow down.

[Goose]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 14 July 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

The Cent got an Engine rating boost that derped its firepower.

…

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Goose, on 14 July 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

…

I don't see whats hard to understand about "Engine get heavier, Firepower get weaker"