33 replies to this topic

[PANZERBUNNY]

Balancing the mechs is fine.

Balancing the tech isn't.

ECM sends any kind of mech balance out the window.

[Alistair Winter]

Fate 6, on 30 January 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

I thought you said they were balanced....

Maybe I wasn't making myself clear. Each mech has at least one good variant (for many mechs, it's only one good variant, like the Raven 3L). So while some variants are not being used, players are at least using different mechs. In other words, you'll often see the AWS 9M, Stalker 3F and Atlas DC, as opposed to just the Atlas DC. Even if no good players are using the Awesome 8V, at least someone's using the 9M. (And to be fair, I'm seeing a lot more of the AWS 8R and 8T than I used to)

[Mercules]

Alistair Winter, on 30 January 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Unless the game is perfectly balanced, the pr0 games will always gravitate towards the most OP mech. But since all mechs have at least one variant that is good, you will see that most matches feature a lot of variety in terms of mechs.

Disclaimer: The 99% statistic is not meant to be taken literally.

Even if the game WAS perfectly balanced there would be Pro-gamers that gravitate towards a mech because of some perceived advantage that may or may not be real. Old FPS with hitboxes people would pick the skins that were narrow and or short even after the devs announced the hitboxes were the same for all models. The "smaller target" myth continued.

[Voridan Atreides]

Alistair Winter, on 30 January 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

We're playing very different games then. I never play a match without seeing any medium mechs or heavy mechs. Very rarely is the Atlas the only assault mech on the map.

By the word "mainly" I mean those are the most mechs that I see. I too see Stalkers, Hunchbacks, Phracts, and Cats. Where did I say that I never see Mediums and Heavies?

main·ly
/ˈmānlē/
Adverb

• More than anything else: "he is mainly concerned with fiction".
  
• For the most part: "the west will be mainly dry".

[Cerlin]

I agree that pug matches have some great variety right now. It is very fun. I get to shoot at everything. I will say the balance is good, but of course some mechs will be more optimal for competitive play. Though most players dont play this right now.

[Eddrick]

ECM Streak Light Mechs use to be extreamly popular.

The moment we started seeing more veriety was when people started noticing the "Lag Shield" on the Light Mechs is going away. Naturaly, some will be more popular them others. Mostly, the Light Mechs have thined out into other weight classes.

We should start seeing even more veriety. Since, extra counters to ECM are coming. With even more on the way.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Atlas > Stalker > Everything Else > Awesome
Catapult > Cataphract > Dragon
Centurion > Hunchback > Small Maps > Cicada
Raven > Jenner > Commando > Spider

The top 4 mechs in each class you tend to see the most of in 8-man play, if you are playing a decided match, otherwise all you see is fat because no one loves the Mediums and only use Lights as a backup plan.

Balance is terrible, partially because a tonnage balance system is all but avoided for some odd reason, and instead we are stuck with a class matching system.

Just because you see it PUGs also doesn't mean the game has good balance. Most use sub-par mechs for 3 reasons.
1 - Inexperience, there are a lot of new players out there and a lot of them have trouble just learning what weapons are good, let alone what chassis' are good.
2 - Defiance, some of us enjoy playing sub-par mechs, whether it be for the challenge (and joy of killing the top mechs) or because we are trying to be hipsters.
3 - You can get away with certain builds in PUGs (ie the meta-game is slightly different), long range tends to work much better because rushing generally takes more cohesion than exists in a PUG. LRM Stalkers are a good example of that, because they can do A LOT of damage in a PUG, but take that to an 8-man, and you might not do so hot.

[b00zy]

Eddrick, on 30 January 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

ECM Streak Light Mechs use to be extreamly popular. The moment we started seeing more veriety was when people started noticing the "Lag Shield" on the Light Mechs is going away. Naturaly, some will be more popular them others. Mostly, the Light Mechs have thined out into other weight classes. We should start seeing even more veriety. Since, extra counters to ECM are coming. With even more on the way.

umm streak lights are still extreamly popular what are you talking about ? the only reason you may see the raven numbers drop slightly is because of the new flavour of the month the splattercat which takes even less talent to use then the ecm raven

Alistair Winter, on 30 January 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

Jenner: Jenner laserboats are doing fine

they are ? im pretty sure they die within 20 seconds against any streak light so no they are not doing fine they are worse then a ECM spider by a large margin if you are still running a jenner at this point you are very stubborn or very stupid

Edited by b00zy, 30 January 2013 - 09:42 AM.

[Khobai]

I really dont think the variants are balanced well at all. Theres maybe only one or two good variants per mech type. And some mech types like the Awesome are just totally obsolete.

[Steven Dixon]

I have to agree with the OP, the mechs are surprisingly well balanced. Obviously they aren't perfectly balanced; I've played many online games and I have never seen one that has perfectly balanced (yet different) units. When I heard that the devs were trying to make lights just as valid as assaults I was highly incredulous. I figured anyone not using an Atlas was just going to be a noob, or a fanatic seeking a challenge or they were just going to ignore the TT rules and remake the mechs. But overall mechs are pretty balanced, I keep switching between many mechs of all weight classes because they are all fun and effective. Kudos to the team.

[Gamgee]

I think the only things that need serious reworking are Medium's. We need to see more out there, they just don't have the advantages of any class and none of their own. Some niche builds work well, but overall not enough of these out there.

ECM itself needs to be changed. Most people will always pick an ECM mech if going to play "pro". It's just a superior piece of equipment. Even if you can aim SRM's and hit him it still gives them a very good defense against a vast majority of players who are not so good at aiming. It just does too much for how inexpensive it is. It really needs some downsides stat.

[Alistair Winter]

Mercules, on 30 January 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Even if the game WAS perfectly balanced there would be Pro-gamers that gravitate towards a mech because of some perceived advantage that may or may not be real. Old FPS with hitboxes people would pick the skins that were narrow and or short even after the devs announced the hitboxes were the same for all models. The "smaller target" myth continued.

Indeed, my point exactly. I remember a thread comparing two light mechs with basically the same hardpoints, so people were comparing the number of degrees they could turn their torsos. To hardcore gamers, I guess it matters. Not to me.

Voridan Atreides, on 30 January 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

By the word "mainly" I mean those are the most mechs that I see. I too see Stalkers, Hunchbacks, Phracts, and Cats. Where did I say that I never see Mediums and Heavies?
main·ly
/ˈmānlē/
Adverb

• More than anything else: "he is mainly concerned with fiction".
  
• For the most part: "the west will be mainly dry".

Oh, I thought your point was that some mechs are a lot more popular than others, in which case I disagree. If you were simply saying that some mechs are slightly more popular than others, then... well, I agree. It's kind of obvious, but thanks for posting.

Cerlin, on 30 January 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

I agree that pug matches have some great variety right now. It is very fun. I get to shoot at everything. I will say the balance is good, but of course some mechs will be more optimal for competitive play. Though most players dont play this right now.

+1.

Eddrick, on 30 January 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

ECM Streak Light Mechs use to be extreamly popular.
The moment we started seeing more veriety was when people started noticing the "Lag Shield" on the Light Mechs is going away. Naturaly, some will be more popular them others. Mostly, the Light Mechs have thined out into other weight classes.
We should start seeing even more veriety. Since, extra counters to ECM are coming. With even more on the way.

Yeah, I'm optimistic. Even though Garth's comments about ECM don't really give me any reason to think they're doing anything serious about ECM any time soon.

majora incarnate, on 30 January 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Atlas > Stalker > Everything Else > Awesome
Catapult > Cataphract > Dragon
Centurion > Hunchback > Small Maps > Cicada
Raven > Jenner > Commando > Spider
The top 4 mechs in each class you tend to see the most of in 8-man play, if you are playing a decided match, otherwise all you see is fat because no one loves the Mediums and only use Lights as a backup plan.

I would agree with you in 2012, but this past month I'm seeing a lot more medium mechs. Especially the hunchback.

majora incarnate, on 30 January 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Balance is terrible, partially because a tonnage balance system is all but avoided for some odd reason, and instead we are stuck with a class matching system.

Well, PGI is trying to balance the game so that assault mechs won't be better than light mechs. Light mechs aren't supposed to just be support mechs with BAP, ECM, TAG and NARC, they're supposed to be fast enough to avoid being hit and thus have no disadvantage against assault mechs.

It's one of the reasons they've messed with the scale of the mechs, so a commando is 1/10th the size of an Atlas, while being 1/4th the weight.

Does it work? Not right now, no. Will it ever work? Who knows.

majora incarnate, on 30 January 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Just because you see it PUGs also doesn't mean the game has good balance. Most use sub-par mechs for 3 reasons.
1 - Inexperience, there are a lot of new players out there and a lot of them have trouble just learning what weapons are good, let alone what chassis' are good.
2 - Defiance, some of us enjoy playing sub-par mechs, whether it be for the challenge (and joy of killing the top mechs) or because we are trying to be hipsters.
3 - You can get away with certain builds in PUGs (ie the meta-game is slightly different), long range tends to work much better because rushing generally takes more cohesion than exists in a PUG. LRM Stalkers are a good example of that, because they can do A LOT of damage in a PUG, but take that to an 8-man, and you might not do so hot.

Yeah, all valid points. I kind of mentioned the first point in the OP, but your third point is especially interesting. The question is how things will play out for the majority of the players once the game is released and community warfare starts for real.

b00zy, on 30 January 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

they are ? im pretty sure they die within 20 seconds against any streak light so no they are not doing fine they are worse then a ECM spider by a large margin if you are still running a jenner at this point you are very stubborn or very stupid

I don't play any light mechs any more, but I've seen other people do well with them.

Khobai, on 30 January 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

I really dont think the variants are balanced well at all. Theres maybe only one or two good variants per mech type. And some mech types like the Awesome are just totally obsolete.

I've basically addressed both these points already, and of course I disagree with the latter.

Gamgee, on 30 January 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

I think the only things that need serious reworking are Medium's. We need to see more out there, they just don't have the advantages of any class and none of their own. Some niche builds work well, but overall not enough of these out there.

ECM itself needs to be changed. Most people will always pick an ECM mech if going to play "pro". It's just a superior piece of equipment. Even if you can aim SRM's and hit him it still gives them a very good defense against a vast majority of players who are not so good at aiming. It just does too much for how inexpensive it is. It really needs some downsides stat.

I haven't been playing mediums lately, but you're probably right about them. And while I agree on the ECM, I really don't think PGI will be making any significant changes in the near future. It almost sounds like they're refusing to change on principle now, I don't understand it.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 30 January 2013 - 10:17 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

There seems to be a prevailing attidutde of the game being fine because 4 mans and pugs are fine, and that is what most everyone plays.

However, the reality is that 4 mans are the core now because of ECM & exactly because non-ECM mechs outside the dual gauss K2 & a few random builds are worthless in organized 8 man play. As such, attempting to play any other mech in this scenario is practically futile, and thus everyone gravitates to 4 mans play to level mechs, gain XP, etc. mechs like the raven 4X, or the Commando 1B.

Thing is though, as more and more people get better and catch on, desiring wins, as more ECM elited mechs filter into the battlefield, the ECM will become more and more necessary to compete.

The real issues like LRM damage, loss of indirect fire as a viable tactic, PPC cant negate 3-4 ECM teams, still remains.

I like a lot of what ECM does, but I do not agree on how it affects long range radar & indirect fire LRMS, nor with the "fixes" that have made LRMS direct fire guns. Its not all bad, but I am worried that as we move towards minmaxing, as is the nature of games, the entire ECM issue will become much more problematic.

[Steven Dixon]

I don't think that people are really saying that balance is perfect and the devs should say 'job done'. Obviously balance is going to be an ongoing issue forever. ECM is the current thing that needs to be balanced and the devs are working on it. We jsut don't know the details yet. After ECMs their will be something else that is unbalanced then something else, this is just the nature of games like this. But even though the game is still in beta the balance isn't too bad IMHO, I would much rather take a skilled pilot in the worst mech than a noob in the most OP mech.

Edited by Steven Dixon, 30 January 2013 - 10:29 AM.