379 replies to this topic

[Cuthbert Allgood]

At least she has some decent looking "Boogermen" stompin her....

lol.......................................

the true "Boogerman" x 4

[One Medic Army]

Said it before, I'll say it again.
The issue isn't teams, the perceived issue is teams.

The actual issue is a combination of:
no skill based matchmaking, meaning having one side with significantly more skilled players isn't uncommon, teams can exascerbate this if a team as a whole is comprised of average or above average players
no respawns means one mistake has HUGE impact, no learning from mistakes until next match
next to no in-game communication/coordination tools available

I'm not advocating respawns, and I've been playing online games since the days when text-chat was the only option so it doesn't bother me personally, but the truth is that we desperately need skill-based matchmaking and better in-game coordination tools. Until we get these, the stomps will continue regardless of the presence or absence of "premades".

Edited by One Medic Army, 01 February 2013 - 01:33 AM.

[Ghogiel]

8 randoms vs 8man team. All players of relative Elo rated skill.

My money is on the premade every time. If that is what you mean by a perceived issue, ok then.

[One Medic Army]

Ghogiel, on 01 February 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

8 randoms vs 8man team. All players of relative Elo rated skill.

My money is on the premade every time. If that is what you mean by a perceived issue, ok then.

And if the Premade team has an average ELO of 1000, while the 8 PUGs they match against have an average ELO of 1500 due to PGI applying a modifier to ELO for being part of a group?

Regardless, when I talk about percieved issue, I talk about right now.
There is a much higher perception of premades being the cause of every victory and defeat than is reasonable.
All 8-0 blowouts are from sync droppers.
All coordination on the part of the enemy, even more than 1 existing with ECM is due to premades.

TL:DR You're all ****ing paranoid as ****.

Edited by One Medic Army, 01 February 2013 - 01:42 AM.

[Ghogiel]

One Medic Army, on 01 February 2013 - 01:38 AM, said:

And if the Premade team has an average ELO of 1000, while the 8 PUGs they match against have an average ELO of 1500 due to PGI applying a modifier to ELO for being part of a group?

They are going to do that? Well then, we'll have to see how well it works then. Good news I suppose.

[GODzillaGSPB]

I bet ya two things:

1.) I bet four man groups were also leading the whole team in those matches where you had fun and success.

2.) Getting rid of 4-mans will do NOTHING to diminish the use of ECM. You might even end up with more ECM.

[One Medic Army]

Ghogiel, on 01 February 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

They are going to do that? Well then, we'll have to see how well it works then. Good news I suppose.

One of the devs stated that it was one of the things that would ideally be part of ELO.
Even if they didn't, the way ELO works if a premade team had an average ELO the same as their enemies, then it means the premades have lost to PUG teams of that skill level in the past, otherwise they would have a higher rating.
It'd get messy for anyone who both PUG'd and played premade though, so I hope it goes in.

From the same post, another of the things to ideally include was a modifier for "asset value" or the mech being piloted.

I'm hoping for a future matchmaker that can get rid of tonnage matching and separated queues, since it would lead to the most variation in the types of opponents encountered (I typically run in a 3man btw), of course actually getting all the modifiers correct would take a lot of doing. Having a mech with DHS and an extra 2 medium lasers cancels out how much skill?

[edit]The dev post I'm talking about, if I manage to find it I'll link, but the search function on this forum is kinda cruddy, and I can't even remember which dev it was.

Edited by One Medic Army, 01 February 2013 - 01:52 AM.

[Lykaon]

Sam Slade, on 31 January 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

Right now the new player experience in MWO is bad. It's not Trial Mechs or grind or anything like that; simply put we have to do away with four man groups. I've been playing PUGs exclusivly for almost a month now just to see what all the fuss was about... I'm actually starting to dislike the game and play Hawken or something instead.

Generally a four man premade group will contain at least one ECM mech(usually two), they will contain highly speced mechs(all the upgrades, etc...) and they will communicate easily(duh). Combine this with the synch drops(don't care if you're wanting to play against your clanmates... harden up and form an 8 man team), the high chance that at least one PUGer will dc/afk/suicide rush, the fact that ALL ECM counters require teamwork and you have a high chance of ending up on the wrong end of a backside kicking.

All in all this makes for a terrible, terrible new player experience... having played PUGs constantly I can say without a doubt the four man groups are the most negative element in the game. I LOVE mechwarrior but playing as a PUG just sucks.

So we should not be allowed a means of casual team play with friends and all join the uncoordinated puggy masses and still lose match after match because we get sandbagged by randomly assigned designated casualties instead of actual team memebers that can put over 50 damage up on a score board?

I too have been pugging exstencivly and I see more loses from lousy teams than premade stomps.Removing access to game features for group inclined players will not solve the issue of terrible players playing badly.

What we need is a newbie training simulator to let the new users pilot a mech outside of a hot drop combat situation.This should reduce the amount of mindblowingly bad players.

Instead of removing 4 man groups the match maker should prioritize matching group vs group then fill in pugs to make the 8 v 8 total team sizes.
If there are 4 pugs and 4 premades on each team almost always what is there to gripe about?

I will outright reject any plan that segrigates the player base.Diluting the player pool by seperating them is a bad plan from the get go.Yet to mullify the mewing masses we got just that a seperate que for 8 v 8 that if you can not be on for prime time is likely to net you 6-8 fails before you find a match.

We should have 1 que and only one.

Matchmaker searches based on groups sizes first then fills in solos.

8 man premade = match maker searches for another 8 man then 2X4 man then finally if failing to find matches 4 man premade + 4 pugs and if that fails match 8 pugs as a last resort.

[Brilig]

Ghogiel, on 01 February 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

8 randoms vs 8man team. All players of relative Elo rated skill.

My money is on the premade every time. If that is what you mean by a perceived issue, ok then.

You have a point. A group of random folks taking on a group of dedicated people who play together often will almost always have a tough time.

But right now it can be nearly hopeless for random lone wolves because there is no skill matching, no in game voice chat, and no pre game lobby. They aren't just going up against organized players, the playing field isn't even level because they don't have the same tools.

With access to in game voice chat, and a pre game lobby the lone wolf players will have the same tools that pre-mades make use of. Once they have access to those same benefits in game that TeamSpeak gives pre-mades I think life will be a lot easier for lone wolf players. They will be able to build lances with a pre game lobby just like pre-mades do. They will have the same voice coms in game that pre-mades do.

Add some skill based matchmaking with ELO and we should see a lot less of the hopeless matches.

[Ghogiel]

One Medic Army, on 01 February 2013 - 01:50 AM, said:

Having a mech with DHS and an extra 2 medium lasers cancels out how much skill?

no idea what so ever lol.

One Medic Army, on 01 February 2013 - 01:50 AM, said:

One of the devs stated that it was one of the things that would ideally be part of ELO.
Even if they didn't, the way ELO works if a premade team had an average ELO the same as their enemies, then it means the premades have lost to PUG teams of that skill level in the past, otherwise they would have a higher rating.
It'd get messy for anyone who both PUG'd and played premade though, so I hope it goes in.

It won't mean the premade has lost to a PUG team before. They could be losing only to sync dropping 8mans of a lower rating or something.

Edited by Ghogiel, 01 February 2013 - 02:03 AM.

[Voidcrafter]

I'm playing with a team for two days now, never-ever played before teamed up with another 3 players so that means I've been in the same situation your'e complaining about for some quite amount of time.
This far I've made about, let we see(look at the profile stats) exactly 706 games - you can count about 670 solo with pugs(tho they(the solo games) are a bit more than that) and since the 4 man group option was put in the game NEVER EVER thought about complaining it even once.
Yes, people are different. But I also played before there were 4 man teams and I remember the huge different from then to now.
I was on your oppinion back there... but now?
4 people playing organized is a problem?!? They should be 8! At both teams! That's what's making this game competitive ffs.
Really sorry unknown fella, but sounds to me that the only obstacle you got ahead is either your own playstyle/skill or your lack of playing competitive, challenging match.
I actually even feel happy when I get the feeling I am playing(when PUG-ing ofcourse) against a teamed up people, because I know I would have to be focused, watch my every move more carefully, adapt quicker, judge better and etc. - that's how I'm getting better in this game, as should all the other players too - newcomers or not.
Aight - happy wasn't the right word, but satisfied is
I hate "it's too hard now, that's why it's stupid" related topics. I agree - it is hard, but not impossible.
And btw the pugs I've been in won more than 70% of those matches, no matter if there were 4 man grouped in the oposite team or not.
Sometimes even two lines does the wonder:
"hey hey unknown fellas"
"let's stick together and win this one"
Yes, there is a high chance someone will do something terribly stupid or noone will pay notice to those lines.
But people are not so stupid all they give them credit for - every sane(even not so ) person enjoys victory more from defeat, and playing more than 5 matches of mwo gives you some basic guidelines which behavior leads to victory.
That's my oppinion tho.
I dissaprove any change since I enjoy the matchmaking the way it is.

[Harmin]

The game is not too hard for solo players.

Point case, take average player me.

I started playing MWO on the 23rd of January.

I started with a 3D trial mech until the cadet bonus ran out. I had around 10k and I spent it on an Atlas D. But after I spent all that money I realised that was dumb for I had no cash left for customisation and new cash was very sparse due to me still losing too often.

So I created a new account on the 25th of January and bought a Muromets with $$$ as first step. This way I got both the cadet bonus and the hero mech bonus which I figured would set me up nicely for the rest of my career. I then did the 25 or so matches until the cadet bonus ran out.

By then I had enough cash to buy more cataphracts and customise them and finish all the basic improvement tiers. Once I had done the cataphracts I moved onto Atlases and by now I have 1 DDC with Master tier (and 4 modules built-in) and the others finished their Elite tier.

Two days ago I installed TeamSpeak 3 and started playing casual drop ship groups.

So as you see, I've made the progression from no-clue solo player to average group player within one week.

There's no need to mess up the game in order to babysit the new players. We new players are resilient. We can take a challenge. Plus we've got the cadet bonus, which is a huge boon.

Hope that helps,

-Armin

[Dmitri Valenov]

Sam Slade, on 31 January 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

Right now the new player experience in MWO is bad. It's not Trial Mechs or grind or anything like that; simply put we have to do away with four man groups. I've been playing PUGs exclusivly for almost a month now just to see what all the fuss was about... I'm actually starting to dislike the game and play Hawken or something instead.

Generally a four man premade group will contain at least one ECM mech(usually two), they will contain highly speced mechs(all the upgrades, etc...) and they will communicate easily(duh). Combine this with the synch drops(don't care if you're wanting to play against your clanmates... harden up and form an 8 man team), the high chance that at least one PUGer will dc/afk/suicide rush, the fact that ALL ECM counters require teamwork and you have a high chance of ending up on the wrong end of a backside kicking.

All in all this makes for a terrible, terrible new player experience... having played PUGs constantly I can say without a doubt the four man groups are the most negative element in the game. I LOVE mechwarrior but playing as a PUG just sucks.

Oh for ****'s sake. I have tried to be as civil as possible on the forums, but this is just going too damn far. First it was "Oh God 8 man premades are ruining my game don't let them touch me in my naughty places anymore." Soon after the whining changed to LRMs being OP, then it was Streaks are OP, then it was ECM is OP, now it's back to premades.

Instead of 8 man you now have to only deal with 4 man teams, but still it's too hard for you. How did you think a competitive multiplayer game was going to work? Did you simply believe that all of your "leet skillz" should be able to carry seven other ADHD social rejects through the entire match all by yourself.

I've been running mixes of premade and PUG matches for a while now and I have learned that even basic communication at the start of the match works wonders on team performance. Hell I just ran a PUG conquest game where the only thing I said was "going to Kappa" and we dominated because other people in the match actually piped up with what their plan was as well.

Bottom line is this. All of the people that are still whining about PUGs v. Premades, Streaks, ECM, and Netcode will never be happy with the game because they just aren't good at it and are unwilling to learn. PGI should stop listening to all of that drivel because these people just want to be coddled for whatever reason.

/end rant

[sj mausgmr]

This conversation, or ones like it, has happened between my team mates and I more times than I can count.

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=EtrZ_PgOkJE

It isn't so much that 4 mans are gods gift to mechwarrior.

It's that this game is full of terrible players.

Edited by sj mausgmr, 01 February 2013 - 03:05 AM.

[Nahuris]

Dmitri has a point --- a little communication goes a LONG way.
For the pug players (like me), pipe up some, listen some, and by all that is holy, please try and go in the same general direction.
Teams... please, let us know. We can work with you, but we need to know what your plan is.... if you can manage to get 4 people together, then you should be able, at least, to communicate that fact.....

i am not sure which is the worse player version... pugs that believe that the "scatter when the lights come on" type of play known as Cockroachtech can somehow win a battle, or the groups that seem to believe that pugs should be reading their minds.... honestly, do you really want us reading your mind and seeing what you and your significant other did the night before?

Like teams, there are many flavors of pug player.... I do it because I am using it as training.... there is nothing quite like taking away team support to push you to better shooting skills...... but, I am more than willing to work with my team..... so long as I know what the plan is.... even general ideas can work.....

Nahuris

[Novawrecker]

Sam Slade, on 31 January 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

... simply put we have to do away with four man groups.

So because you cannot communicate and organize with the members of a pickup group, other people have to suffer? What if I want to drop with a group of friends just to simply drop. We can't have that cause you are having a bad time for playing badly or playing with people that play badly?

When YOU start paying for my MC, MY playtime, MY configurations, and what ever other time and in/out game costs, THEN you gain the right to remove 4 man groups from the game.

This whole pug stomppied excuse is getting very old, very fast. Stop blaming 4 mans for the real excuse: Pugs often fail to organize themselves and get nailed. Not just vs. 4 mans, nor even vs. 8 man, but destroyed by other PUGs that get their act together, communicate with each other, and organize themselves into an effective team.

Edited by Novawrecker, 01 February 2013 - 03:14 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Well you don't organize yourself when you just want to take a look into the game.
I can understand the OP.
Can you remember the first time in MWO? Did you overheat? Did you have problems with weapon grouping? Did you have enormous problems to twist torso and not to crash into a building?

All the videos and guides give you no experience. They need training grounds and when elo hit the game - and i really hope they will not wipe stats - those early players will not face more experienced players.

but to remove premade teams that will advance pure pug teams?
its the same when i force you not to use the Catapult, because the Catapult has the most imba builds (Splash, Streak, AC 20, Gauss.....)

[Mycrus]

Sam Slade, on 31 January 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

Right now the new player experience in MWO is bad. It's not Trial Mechs or grind or anything like that; simply put we have to do away with four man groups. I've been playing PUGs exclusivly for almost a month now just to see what all the fuss was about... I'm actually starting to dislike the game and play Hawken or something instead.

Generally a four man premade group will contain at least one ECM mech(usually two), they will contain highly speced mechs(all the upgrades, etc...) and they will communicate easily(duh). Combine this with the synch drops(don't care if you're wanting to play against your clanmates... harden up and form an 8 man team), the high chance that at least one PUGer will dc/afk/suicide rush, the fact that ALL ECM counters require teamwork and you have a high chance of ending up on the wrong end of a backside kicking.

All in all this makes for a terrible, terrible new player experience... having played PUGs constantly I can say without a doubt the four man groups are the most negative element in the game. I LOVE mechwarrior but playing as a PUG just sucks.

exactly what i have been saying all along...

4-man vs PUGs is OP
4-man + ECM vs PUGs is godmode
4+4man vs PUGs is cowardice

unfortunately, so called 'teams' that like 'teamwork' hide in the 4-man queue while the 8-man is a ghost town...

why? because 4-man premades have 101 reasons (yes as many as dalmatians) why they won't play 8-mans...

but the only true reason is that 4-man premades love to PUGstomp and are scare of the 8-man queue.

[Novawrecker]

Karl,

I can completely understand the perspective of a freshly new player learning the ropes of the game. But every player, in ANY game they are just learning will get splated due to lack of knowledge. Does it suck? Absolutely. However, in time they (should) learn from their mistakes and begin the process of becoming a better player. I agree with you that this game does need a more effective training grounds (which has been stated will be in game).

Alas, the problem isn't newbie from fresh-ville not knowing what to do. It's the usual lone wolf thinking he's superman in a kryptonite proof mech and he can solo a group of 8 w/out the help of his teammates, thinks we all have telepathy and can mentally sync with the pug members, or believes everyone always follows the same exact strat without verifying the case. If these groups continue the trend of not communicating and organizing with each other, the end result is usually always the same: They get obliterated.

[Adrienne Vorton]

Karl Streiger, on 01 February 2013 - 03:21 AM, said:

1.Can you remember the first time in MWO?
2.Did you overheat?
3.Did you have problems with weapon grouping?
4.Did you have enormous problems to twist torso and not to crash into a building?

1. very well
2. yes, and i still do sometimes...
3. first match, then never again
4. no, the first 3 or so matches it felt a bit unused, but i won´t call it more than the usual "get the feel for the game"... plus if i crashed into a building it didn´t have to do with the torso twist, but more with the deceleration i had to make myself familiar with... took me not more than the mentioned 3 - 5 matches...

basically, neither of the above has anything to do with premade groups...

(might add, that i played 100% solo the first month until i got sick of unorganized chickenruns and signed up at DHB)

Novawrecker, on 01 February 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

I can completely understand the perspective of a freshly new player learning the ropes of the game. But every player, in ANY game they are just learning will get splated due to lack of knowledge. Does it suck? Absolutely. However, in time they (should) learn from their mistakes and begin the process of becoming a better player. I agree with you that this game does need a more effective training grounds (which has been stated will be in game).

Alas, the problem isn't newbie from fresh-ville not knowing what to do. It's the usual lone wolf thinking he's superman in a kryptonite proof mech and he can solo a group of 8 w/out the help of his teammates, thinks we all have telepathy and can mentally sync with the pug members, or believes everyone always follows the same exact strat without verifying the case. If these groups continue the trend of not communicating and organizing with each other, the end result is usually always the same: They get obliterated.

plus this, thanks for the words

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 01 February 2013 - 03:49 AM.