452 replies to this topic

[War Boar]

Been playing 8 man matches a lot. Everyone should try them - very challenging! The main problem I, personally, have seen is that the matches center around which side has the most D-DCs and ECM Ravens. This is a bad trend and it negates the variety of mechs seen in pre-ECM 8 man teams. Before ECM there were a great variety of other mechs, including the now rarely seen Awesome, Jenner, Dragon, and Centurion. Now it's all Ravens and D-DC Atlas.

I'm not saying there no longer exists teams that use a variety of mechs in 8 man matches. The point I'm making is 8 man matches are ECM fights and thats about it. It's a sad reality that really need to change since 8 man's have lost their appeal from ECM abuse. I preferred the 8 man matches before ECM was released and that is not the way it should be IMHO. Yes, I pilot the D-DC and sorta wish ECM would go away and or cease being the monster it is now. Just saying, and I hope PGI addresses this unbalance soon...

[Gammanoob]

Of course matches center around ECM numbers, ECM is by its nature a numbers game.

Whoever has more ECM can both disrupt the enemies locks and also keep their own lock available by using counter.

Unless the developers actually change it so that one ECM can knock out two others or more this will always be the case.

[Omigir]

ECM is the only thing a Light mech has to defend itself from things like LRMs or Streaks. Does not work all the time, but lets face it: Light mechs are made of paper and its already hard enough to 'scout' or 'scout hunt' as it is. Since any one can see you from pretty much any point of the map. Now light mechs can be sneaky, and do what they are meant to and that is 'See without being seen.'

[StalaggtIKE]

Omigir, on 10 February 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

ECM is the only thing a Light mech has to defend itself from things like LRMs or Streaks. Does not work all the time, but lets face it: Light mechs are made of paper and its already hard enough to 'scout' or 'scout hunt' as it is. Since any one can see you from pretty much any point of the map. Now light mechs can be sneaky, and do what they are meant to and that is 'See without being seen.'

This is not true, unless the RVN-3L, COM-2D and SDR-5D are the only scout mechs in the game. Oh, and apparently the D-DC fits in there somewhere. Are the other light variants not scouts then? What happens when a scout escorts the entire team within his stealth umbrella? Are they all scouts now? No, scouting comes from the ability to maneuver around the field quickly, not a 1.5 ton magic, stealth box. Fact is at this point of 3050, there should be no stealth. This comes later in the form of stealth armor and null signature. I agree with the fact it is silly you can be seen from anywhere. Active and passive radar would ratify this.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 10 February 2013 - 03:18 PM.

[Thorqemada]

Omigir, on 10 February 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

ECM is the only thing a Light mech has to defend itself from things like LRMs or Streaks. Does not work all the time, but lets face it: Light mechs are made of paper and its already hard enough to 'scout' or 'scout hunt' as it is. Since any one can see you from pretty much any point of the map. Now light mechs can be sneaky, and do what they are meant to and that is 'See without being seen.'

The Counter to LRMs was "Speed" and "Agility", throughout all the CB and later the OB a good Light could outrun and outturn almost any LRM fried at them making them the target with the most wasted ammo on them - also you could use "Cover" and "AMS".
They are practically 3 times more durable to LRM than an Atlas.

SSRM are either countered by "Speed" bcs the Light is around 60kph faster then the SSRM Carrier (including the SSRM Cat) or "Cover" and "Agility".

Pre ECM my Centurion CN9-A was a Anti-Light-Mech with 3x SSRM2 and usually you needed 60 to 100 SSRM to destroy a Light bcs so many would miss (yeah - SSRM do miss Lights!), hit obstacles, the hit would not do damage etc.

Lights were never treated by Lock On Weapons in an unbalanced way - it is in fact the opposite!

Edited by Thorqemada, 10 February 2013 - 03:36 PM.

[Sigismund]

I'm guessing some people here haven't had the FUN of playing against a 4-man Atlas D-DC team with ECM scouts. It's just plain boring, not only does ECM counter all LRM's, which are standard in most mechs, but also counters everything which counters itself, Narc and TAG. The worst part is that they limited it's use to only certain variants so any one with a play style or preference which doesn't match those mechs doesn't get to use them unless they force themselves to. Thankfully the days of D-DC will be over when PPC's disable ECM in the next patch but good luck hitting a Raven or Commando with any frequency.

In case there was any doubt about what ECM does this comes straight from Citytech on the Guardian ECM.

"A Guardian system nullifies the effects of any enemy BAP, Artmis IV, Narc or C3 when any of this systems are within 6 hexes(180m) of a Guardian-equipped unit. Friendly systems are not affected. The Guardian ECM suite does not affect other scanning and targetted devices such as TAG and Clan targeting computers."

Nowhere in the tabletop does ECM stop people from locking on with LRM's and SSRM's unless you fire indirectly using friendly info. Also something important which isn't implemented. Even if they removed the stealth features this alone would make up for it.

"If the LOS to a narc or between two C3 linked units passes within 6 hexes of an enemy Guardian the line of communication is broken until the Guardian no longer interferes."

So if an ECM so much as moves in the empty space between two mechs they lose comms. So yeah, bump the damage down on LRMS to re ECM and let us actually use our LRM's again.

[IrrelevantFish]

Omigir, on 10 February 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

ECM is the only thing a Light mech has to defend itself from things like LRMs or Streaks.

That's crap. Remotely competent positioning allows even slower lights (like the 113kph RVN-4X I currently have the displeasure of piloting) to find cover from LRMs before they land.

And Streaks are short ranged, so if they're on heavier mechs, you can run away. Their damage is also spread out and focused on the torso, where most of your armor is, so if you're facing a light with Streaks, twisting your torso and focusing your fire will often allow you to come out on top.

Besides, Streaks are basically designed as a counter to fast lights. Standard SRMs are much more effective against anything else.

Omigir, on 10 February 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

Now light mechs can be sneaky, and do what they are meant to and that is 'See without being seen.'

Dude, that's the one thing ECM fails at. Thanks to the "low signal" indicator, you might as well mount loudspeakers to your mech and shout "I'M HERE!!!!!!!!" As it stands, ECM allows lights to 1) charge around the map with impunity, 2) armor their entire team against missiles, and 3) expose the enemy team to endless streams of LRMs. Because they're essentially invulnerable to Streaks, ECM-lights can zip around like idiots in the center of an entire enemy team and still survive long enough for LRMs to chew a few assault mechs to pieces. That's simply not fair and not fun.

Edited by IrrelevantFish, 10 February 2013 - 07:37 PM.

[Teralitha]

Rat of the Legion Vega, on 01 February 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

Yup this is holding true so far. Really even distribution.

Thats because you have too many poll choices.. Should just be "yes' No' and indifferent.

btw... ECM is still garbage, even after the recent changes. Sure its fun to use, but overall this incarnation is bad for the game. PGI hasnt seemed to figure it out yet.

Edited by Teralitha, 10 February 2013 - 07:42 PM.

[Teralitha]

War Boar, on 10 February 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Been playing 8 man matches a lot. Everyone should try them - very challenging! The main problem I, personally, have seen is that the matches center around which side has the most D-DCs and ECM Ravens. This is a bad trend and it negates the variety of mechs seen in pre-ECM 8 man teams. Before ECM there were a great variety of other mechs, including the now rarely seen Awesome, Jenner, Dragon, and Centurion. Now it's all Ravens and D-DC Atlas.

I'm not saying there no longer exists teams that use a variety of mechs in 8 man matches. The point I'm making is 8 man matches are ECM fights and thats about it. It's a sad reality that really need to change since 8 man's have lost their appeal from ECM abuse. I preferred the 8 man matches before ECM was released and that is not the way it should be IMHO. Yes, I pilot the D-DC and sorta wish ECM would go away and or cease being the monster it is now. Just saying, and I hope PGI addresses this unbalance soon...

That sad thing here is... PGI thinks ECM is fine. And its not.

[Rahnu]

So, as a medium-high level player who exclusively PUGs and doesn't have the benefit of voice communication with his team... ECM has most definitely NOT improved my impression of the game much at all.

It is, quite simply, far too powerful. Removing the ability for me to see my teammates' positions alone completely ruins my situational awareness; being unable to lock or see enemy positions on the minimap is just adding insult to injury. Obviously, being unable to see your teammates isn't a problem for organized groups running with voice communication all the time; problem is, a huge number of players do NOT engage in this, and they are disproportionately affected by it as a result.

The game's already horribly unfriendly to new players as it is. ECM is just one of a whole list of "features" that will (and likely has) turned off players by the dozens. As the game needs new players to stay alive, PGI really cannot afford to add even more stuff on the pile of "anti-newbie material" that the game already has.

My suggestion is that ECM should create 'false readings' on the minimap (both enemies and friendlies) as opposed to cutting out all minimap activity. The decoys should have telltale traits that separate them from real players (only moving in one direction, moving through obstacles, etc.) such that skilled players can still tell the difference between them and real targets; they just lose the ability to read the situation at a glance, which itself is a harsh enough penalty to being under the effect. Furthermore, it shouldn't prevent lock-on entirely; it should make lock-on difficult, sure, and maybe even periodically break lock-on, but absolutes are always terrible, and as long as ECM completely prevents all lock-on by whoever is under its effect, it cannot be balanced.

It should be something that you want to put on because it's worth its weight. Not something you put on because it's worth its weight in liquid platinum and nothing else you put on will ever, EVER have even remotely close to as large an effect on the battle.

[Teralitha]

As of this posting the counts of this poll are...

152 like ECM
311 hate ECM

98 are indifferent.



There ya have it - 2/3 of the player base hate the ecm feature.


I think we are done here. Bryan, Russ, Paul..... I think you know what needs to happen.

Jerod Drekmor, on 10 February 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

Im new in game but aftera week of playing I can say Ecm are ****** me of to edge.....Long rage support is part of any warfare and right now LRM are hit hard cuz one guy in team has little device with magic power of invisibility cloak....well its hardly matter of skill if enemy has no way to lock on you....as well as it fun to some ppl it bad for game cuz its make less builds avaible to play thus make it more repeteble and boring.(sorry for my english)

From the mouth of babes..... Even a brand new player to the game can see that ECM is broken, and how, and what it does to the health of the game.

Edited by Teralitha, 10 February 2013 - 09:15 PM.

[StandingCow]

There is a problem when one weapon needs tons of counters... and is still a problem.

I think the answer has been staring PGI in the face... table top.

[GoDsiZeSnakEyes]

First I took a forced break because of the performance issues, couldn't play with the game running like a slide show. Now that the game runs smooth, EMC is steam rolling all and most outcomes are determined by who has the most EMC. This time my break is voulantary until they fix this EMC mess.

[Teralitha]

Hell I stopped playing after new years. Want to know what the last mech I piloted was? A Raven 3L with ECM, med lasers and ssrms. Yes I kicked much azz in it. I found it disgusting how much it disrupted the purity of the mechwarrior experience. I didnt want to be a part of it anymore and decided I wouldnt play until ECM was fixed.

Edited by Teralitha, 10 February 2013 - 08:19 PM.

[Eddrick]

I'm a little surprised I haven't put anything in here besides a vote for indifferant.

I personaly, don't care if they nerf or buff ECM. I adapted to ECM so it doesn't cripple me. So, many others apperently do allow it to cripple them and refuse to adapt.

As long as people can still visualy see the target, there is very little stopping people from just being aware of thier surroundings and shoting thier target.

Adapt, overcome and refer to my signature.

[Teralitha]

Eddrick, on 10 February 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

I'm a little surprised I haven't put anything in here besides a vote for indifferant.

I personaly, don't care if they nerf or buff ECM. I adapted to ECM so it doesn't cripple me. So, many others apperently do allow it to cripple them and refuse to adapt.

As long as people can still visualy see the target, there is very little stopping people from just being aware of thier surroundings and shoting thier target.

Adapt, overcome and refer to my signature.

Just because some players have adapted to it, doesnt mean its a good feature.

Jerod Drekmor, on 10 February 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

Im new in game but aftera week of playing I can say Ecm are ****** me of to edge.....Long rage support is part of any warfare and right now LRM are hit hard cuz one guy in team has little device with magic power of invisibility cloak....well its hardly matter of skill if enemy has no way to lock on you....as well as it fun to some ppl it bad for game cuz its make less builds avaible to play thus make it more repeteble and boring.(sorry for my english)

From the mouth of babes..... Even a brand new player to the game can see that ECM is broken, and how, and what it does to the health of the game.

Edited by Teralitha, 10 February 2013 - 09:15 PM.

[Kousagi]

StalaggtIKE, on 10 February 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

Fact is at this point of 3050, there should be no stealth. This comes later in the form of stealth armor and null signature. I agree with the fact it is silly you can be seen from anywhere. Active and passive radar would ratify this.

This you are wrong on this. ECM and Stealth armor emulate different parts of Null sig. ECM does block radar, to the same effect that null sig does. This is in the rule books, Angel ECM has the same radar disruption power as Null sig, Guardian is a step below, but its only 1 point less, on a 2d6 scale. Stealth armor, however does not stop radar at all, It emulates the thermal masking of Null sig, which in the rule book all this does is add on a + to the hit modifiers at different ranges.

Rules for how all this works can be found in Battletech And Mechwarrior rule books. Max tech, double blind rules for BT, and I've only looked through my recently found Solaris Mechwarrior book, so not sure what other Mechwarrior books have the ECM rules.

[EdyP]

PrestonCDawg, on 01 February 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

It's great, it makes you diversify your load outs and makes you think. You can't just run a targeted missile boat without consequence. Also it makes people communicate and gives certain team mates roles on the battle field.

THIS^

it makes the game much more tactical. you can't just run head on and brawl as easily as before and you can actually sort of ambush the other team (well... as much as 100 ton mechs can ambush). i PUG 100% with no voice comms what so ever and just a few quick sentences on the chat and usually the team is somewhat prepared for battle. most by now know to stick near an ECM mech.

[Teralitha]

EdyP, on 10 February 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

THIS^

it makes the game much more tactical. you can't just run head on and brawl as easily as before and you can actually sort of ambush the other team (well... as much as 100 ton mechs can ambush). i PUG 100% with no voice comms what so ever and just a few quick sentences on the chat and usually the team is somewhat prepared for battle. most by now know to stick near an ECM mech.

Players dont need ECM to stay together... your basically saying that ECM is a noob control device. Players should always stay near their team, that is piloting 101. ECM didnt do that. All ECM did was make them invisible on radar. You NEVER could just run head on and brawl by yourself. ECM didnt change that either.

All ECM does is make you invincible to missles and force players to rely on their eyes instead of their radars. Line of sight radar feature already offered you the challenge to find enemies visually and allow them to be targeted by your computer. ECM made your targeting computer useless. Which makes indirect fire useless. Which makes every match a brawl with no radar.

Fun? Sure to a certain degree.... but it makes the game less diverse. And even less tactical.

I enjoy being able to see a target on my hud, and see its paper doll change colors when I do damage. ECM takes that little joy away from me.... ECM is the devil !!

Jerod Drekmor, on 10 February 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

Im new in game but aftera week of playing I can say Ecm are ****** me of to edge.....Long rage support is part of any warfare and right now LRM are hit hard cuz one guy in team has little device with magic power of invisibility cloak....well its hardly matter of skill if enemy has no way to lock on you....as well as it fun to some ppl it bad for game cuz its make less builds avaible to play thus make it more repeteble and boring.(sorry for my english)

From the mouth of babes..... Even a brand new player to the game can see that ECM is broken, and how, and what it does to the health of the game.

Edited by Teralitha, 10 February 2013 - 09:17 PM.

[Eddrick]

Teralitha, on 10 February 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

Just because some players have adapted to it, doesnt mean its a good feature.

"Good feature" is a little subjective as far I am conserned. I view ECM as a challange. However, it was one that I have already encounted before. In the form of Stealth Fighters in some Combat Flight Simulators. Were they had all the same effects as ECM does on MechWarrior Online.

Also, I just found this BattleTech Master Rules (Revised). It shows that ECM does most/if not all of what it is supposed to do. Page 136

Edited by Eddrick, 10 February 2013 - 09:42 PM.