452 replies to this topic

[StalaggtIKE]

Eddrick, on 10 February 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

"Good feature" is a little subjective as far I am conserned. I view ECM as a challange.

Yes, ECM is a bit of challenge. However I feel it affects pugs and premades disproportionately, since TS, a 3rd party software, counterbalance its intel removal. ECM negates all built in tools to allow solo players (pugs) the ability to coordinate effective counter attacks. I find that ECM isn't as much of a challenge as it is a teamwork inhibitor on pugs.

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However, it was one that I have already encounted before. In the form of Stealth Fighters in some Combat Flight Simulators. Were they had all the same effects as ECM does on MechWarrior Online.

A simulator's goal is to be as life like as possible. And, as we all know, life has a habit of being unfair. So, I doubt we should gauge balance in MWO, off of such a game.

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Also, I just found this BattleTech Master Rules (Revised). It shows that ECM does most/if not all of what it is supposed to do. Page 136

I disagree. I'll admit, decoding the rulebook can be a bit taxing, but this is how I interrupted it.
Here's the diagram:

This is what the rulebook says:

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In the diagram below, the Mech in Hex A is equipped with an ECM Suite, which has an effect radius of 6 (shown as the shaded area). An enemy unit in this area or enemy LOS traced through it is affected. Therefore, the Mech in Hex B is affected because it falls inside the radius. A shot from Hex C to Hex D would also be affected because the LOS passes through the radius. A shot from Hex C to Hex E would not be affected, however, because the LOS does not pass through the radius.

This explained who and how it affects enemy mechs. Keep in mind what it is that our mechs in MWO come equipped with. They have the standard sensors that all mechs receive built in to the cockpit. Sensors provide your standard los targeting. We also have the ability to share this targeting data, so one can only assume we are also equipped with C3 computers. Next, we are explained what ECM affects.

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Within its effect radius, an ECM suite has the following effects on the following systems. The ECM suite does not affect other scanning and targeting devices, such as TAG and Clan targeting computers.

• Active Probes (or BAP)
  
• Artemis IV FCS
  
• Narc Missile beacon
  
• C3 Computer: ECM has the effect of "cutting off" any C3 equipped unit from its network.

Notice there is no mention of stealth or hidden mechs. Also, note there is no penalty towards sensors. Instead some electronic tools are disabled and the C3 computer is cut off from the network. Since C3 can no longer communicate over the air, Mech B can not share target info of A, D and E with Mech C. However both Mech B and C would still be able to self designate targets as long as they maintain los to the given target. Now things change once an obstacle (red circle) is added blocking los, such as in the diagram below:

Now things are a bit different. Mech B can see Mech A, however he can not see D or E. This means he can not target D or E despite the fact, Mech C is looking right at them. Also, Mech C cannot target A despite the fact, Mech B is looking at him. The ECM has disabled C3 thus they can not share this targeting data. Now one more example; let's say Mech C and E are in the same lance. Mech C cannot pass on Mech D info to E due to the ECM radius. However Mech E could pass target D to Mech C because he is not looking through the ECM radius and has uninterrupted los to both Mech C and D.

This boils down to as long as a mech has direct los of an enemy he can target it. However, if this los is broken by ECM, only C3 is disabled, thus the only thing that is negated is the sharing of targets between a lance.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 11 February 2013 - 09:14 AM.

[DocBach]

EdyP, on 10 February 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

THIS^

it makes the game much more tactical. you can't just run head on and brawl as easily as before and you can actually sort of ambush the other team (well... as much as 100 ton mechs can ambush). i PUG 100% with no voice comms what so ever and just a few quick sentences on the chat and usually the team is somewhat prepared for battle. most by now know to stick near an ECM mech.

We must be playing a different game - pretty much rushing in to brawl without fear of any sort of reprisal from indirect fire is a hallmark of most ECM strategies.

[Teralitha]

StalaggtIKE, on 11 February 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Yes, ECM is a bit of challenge. However I feel it affects pugs and premades disproportionately, since TS, a 3rd party software, counterbalance its intel removal. ECM negates all built in tools to allow solo players (pugs) the ability to coordinate effective counter attacks. I find that ECM isn't as much of a challenge as it is a teamwork inhibitor on pugs.


A simulator's goal is to be as life like as possible. And, as we all know, life has a habit of being unfair. So, I doubt we should gauge balance in MWO, off of such a game.


I disagree. I'll admit, decoding the rulebook can be a bit taxing, but this is how I interrupted it.
Here's the diagram:

This is what the rulebook says:

This explained who and how it affects enemy mechs. Keep in mind what it is that our mechs in MWO come equipped with. They have the standard sensors that all mechs receive built in to the cockpit. Sensors provide your standard los targeting. We also have the ability to share this targeting data, so one can only assume we are also equipped with C3 computers. Next, we are explained what ECM affects.

Notice there is no mention of stealth or hidden mechs. Also, note there is no penalty towards sensors. Instead some electronic tools are disabled and the C3 computer is cut off from the network. Since C3 can no longer communicate over the air, Mech B can not share target info of A, D and E with Mech C. However both Mech B and C would still be able to self designate targets as long as they maintain los to the given target. Now things change once an obstacle (red circle) is added blocking los, such as in the diagram below:

Now things are a bit different. Mech B can see Mech A, however he can not see D or E. This means he can not target D or E despite the fact, Mech C is looking right at them. Also, Mech C cannot target A despite the fact, Mech B is looking at him. The ECM has disabled C3 thus they can not share this targeting data. Now one more example; let's say Mech C and E are in the same lance. Mech C cannot pass on Mech D info to E due to the ECM radius. However Mech E could pass target D to Mech C because he is not looking through the ECM radius and has uninterrupted los to both Mech C and D.

This boils down to as long as a mech has direct los of an enemy he can target it. However, if this los is broken by ECM, only C3 is disabled, thus the only thing that is negated is the sharing of targets between a lance.

I guess PGI misunderstood the functionality of ECM from the rules.... oops. Or they just were unable to program it properly and went with what we have. Either way... its wrong.

Edited by Teralitha, 11 February 2013 - 07:17 PM.

[Teralitha]

The vote is now....

162 that like ECM (27%)

327 that hate ECM (55%)

Still pretty obvious........ In politics, you would call this a "landside"

But here, in the online gaming industry = FAIL

Edited by Teralitha, 11 February 2013 - 11:11 PM.

[Kousagi]

StalaggtIKE, on 11 February 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Notice there is no mention of stealth or hidden mechs. Also, note there is no penalty towards sensors.

That is because the level two rules don't really have any kind of sensor rules to start with. ECM Does hide mechs. It is noted in both Battletech And mechwarrior rules. Just in Battletech they are Level 3 rules and Mechwarrior, is a optional thing too.

Battletech covers it under the double blind rules in Max tech. The Angel ECM has the same sensor disruption power as a Null sig, the guardian is 1 point less on a 2d6 scale.

Mechwarrior covers it in "The Mechwarriors Guide to Solaris" which has the RPG's mech dueling rules in it. In there ECM equipped mechs, and any mech under a friendly ECM that is the target of enemy sensors applys a "debuff" to the enemys roll for any sensor action.

Edited by Kousagi, 11 February 2013 - 07:33 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Kousagi, on 11 February 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

That is because the level two rules don't really have any kind of sensor rules to start with. ECM Does hide mechs. It is noted in both Battletech And mechwarrior rules. Just in Battletech they are Level 3 rules and Mechwarrior, is a optional thing too.

Battletech covers it under the double blind rules in Max tech. The Angel ECM has the same sensor disruption power as a Null sig, the guardian is 1 point less on a 2d6 scale.

Would this not fall under the ghosting function? That would be a debuff, however that is not full on stealth. It seems you may be getting things confused because ECM was required for Null sig. It wouldn't make sense for them to have the same disruption power. I admit I do not have a copy of this. Do you have a link?

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Mechwarrior covers it in "The Mechwarriors Guide to Solaris" which has the RPG's mech dueling rules in it. In there ECM equipped mechs, and any mech under a friendly ECM that is the target of enemy sensors applys a "debuff" to the enemys roll for any sensor action.

As for the "The Mechwarriors Guide to Solaris", I thought these were special rules to be applied to duels only.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 11 February 2013 - 08:00 PM.

[Kousagi]

StalaggtIKE, on 11 February 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

Would this not fall under the ghosting function? That would be a debuff, however that is not full on stealth. It seems you may be getting things confused because ECM was required for Null sig. It wouldn't make sense for them to have the same disruption power. I admit I do not have a copy of this. Do you have a link?


As for the "The Mechwarriors Guide to Solaris", I thought these were special rules to be applied to duels only.

Not getting it confused at all, Ghosting has its own rule set as well in the book. No Null sig does not need ECM, its stealth armor that does. Stealth armor+ECM = null sig in its full effects. ECM emulates the sensor disruption, and stealth armor emulates the thermal masking. Though can't say its accurate that ECM emulates null sig, since I'm not 100% sure which came first, but the fact still is that both have the same effect in that area.

As for Mechwarrior, The main rule book does not have mech vs mech combat rules, it says to use battletechs rules if ya really want to do mech vs mech. Mechwarriors guide to Solaris brings in Mech vs Mech rules, though yes, it's mainly for duels due to the amount of rules and rolling you would have to do, so its not practical for groups of mechs to fight using the rules, kinda why the main book says to just use BT's rules. I was using it more as a reference to prove that the rules for it existed since people keep saying that ECM does not disrupt sensors.

[Codejack]

Where does it say it counters TAG?

Where does it say it prevents LRMs from tracking?

Where does it say it prevents SSRMs from firing at all?

Where does it say that it prevents detection despite having LOS?

Where does it say that it cuts off IFF?

I guess Upton Sinclair was right: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on him not understanding it."

Maybe if these guys weren't so invested in the ECM system being the way it was, they would be able to read.

[The Mecha Streisand]

Good poll. Thanks!

[Kousagi]

Codejack, on 11 February 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

Where does it say it counters TAG?

Where does it say it prevents LRMs from tracking?

Where does it say it prevents SSRMs from firing at all?

Where does it say that it prevents detection despite having LOS?

Where does it say that it cuts off IFF?

I guess Upton Sinclair was right: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on him not understanding it."

Maybe if these guys weren't so invested in the ECM system being the way it was, they would be able to read.

Went over Tag with you before, you don't seem to understand so don't care.

You are right in that ECM does nothing to TT LRM's, but! LRM's got changed from TT to MWO. Different guidance systems, So naturally with MWO LRM's locking on, ( unlike TT ) ECM now kills them.

Angel does kill the Streak part of SSRM's but still allows them to fire as if they are SRM's, so you have one valid argument, dev's just have not programed it, or left it out for balance, who knows, you can bark at them for it though if ya like.

Double blind rules, and the Mechwarrior ones, Though don't mistake, just cause your sensors can't see a mech does not mean that the pilots eye ball's can't see a mech. You are more then free to shoot at them, you just don't get the bonus that comes with sensor locks.

IFF was never a modeled rule in Battletech, since if you could lose your own models with your god view of the board, then you didn't deserve them models in the first place. I mean for gods sake you paint them bright shiny colors so you don't lose them... Though it is natural for ECM to cut IFF, being a transmitter beacon and all.

Edited by Kousagi, 11 February 2013 - 09:02 PM.

[RLBell]

War Boar, on 10 February 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Been playing 8 man matches a lot. Everyone should try them - very challenging! The main problem I, personally, have seen is that the matches center around which side has the most D-DCs and ECM Ravens. This is a bad trend and it negates the variety of mechs seen in pre-ECM 8 man teams. Before ECM there were a great variety of other mechs, including the now rarely seen Awesome, Jenner, Dragon, and Centurion. Now it's all Ravens and D-DC Atlas.

I'm not saying there no longer exists teams that use a variety of mechs in 8 man matches. The point I'm making is 8 man matches are ECM fights and thats about it. It's a sad reality that really need to change since 8 man's have lost their appeal from ECM abuse. I preferred the 8 man matches before ECM was released and that is not the way it should be IMHO. Yes, I pilot the D-DC and sorta wish ECM would go away and or cease being the monster it is now. Just saying, and I hope PGI addresses this unbalance soon...

If these teams only faced other teams similarily equipped, there would be much fewer complaints. Unfortunately, these 8 man ECM teams rack up the 8 kills to zero wins versus PUGs, which makes it hard for a PUGging pilot to believe that he is getting better at the game. [editted to clarify ambiguous pronoun]

Edited by RLBell, 11 February 2013 - 09:15 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

@Kousagi: Like I said before, I don't have that particular set of rule books before me, so I am only going on memory. If what you say is true, things just don't add up. For instance, if both ECM and Null Sig hides mechs, as you say. Why would only Null Sig come with a laundry list of cons? Those being:

• it generates heat
  
• takes up crit spot in arm and legs (if I remember correctly CT, RT, LT as well)
  
• removes your ability to carry C3 or satellite uplink

Why would FASA even waste their time creating this pos of a technology? In a choice of ECM vs Null Signature. ECM would always be the obvious pick. Surely ECM would have similar cons, if not more, being that it weighs less and take up less crit. Either that, or it does not provide stealth.

RLBell, on 11 February 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

If these teams only faced other teams similarily equipped, there would be much fewer complaints. Unfortunately, these 8 man ECM teams rack up the 8 kills to zero wins versus PUGs, which makes it hard to believe that you are really getting better at the game.

I'm pretty sure 8 man is only matched with 8 man. Unless they recently changed something.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 11 February 2013 - 09:06 PM.

[Kousagi]

StalaggtIKE, on 11 February 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

Like I said before, I don't have that particular set of rule books before me, so I am only going on memory. If what you say is true, things just don't add up. For instance, if both ECM and Null Sig hides mechs, as you say. Why would only Null Sig come with a laundry list of cons? Those being:

• it generates heat
  
• takes up crit spot in arm and legs (if I remember correctly CT, RT, LT as well)
  
• removes your ability to carry C3 or satellite uplink

Why would FASA even waste their time creating this pos of a technology? In a choice of ECM vs Null Signature. ECM would always be the obvious pick. Surely ECM would have similar cons, if not more, being that it weighs less and take up less crit. Either that, or it does not provide stealth.

The heat generation and crit slots is from the thermal masking, Much like how stealth armor has this same exact con.

[RLBell]

StalaggtIKE, on 11 February 2013 - 09:05 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure 8 man is only matched with 8 man. Unless they recently changed something.

I would like to you to be right, and me to be wrong. Maybe it is only 4 man team drops into PUG games, but I have been on the short ends of appallingly one sided battles where the other side had 3 AS7-D-DC's, and the damned things seldom travel in less than pairs. I have a suspiscion that AS7-D-DC's are absorbing a disproportionate share of accumulated cadet bonuses, as I have seen some piloted with a marked shortage of clues.

[Teralitha]

bumping for votes

[Praehotec8]

StalaggtIKE, on 11 February 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

This boils down to as long as a mech has direct los of an enemy he can target it. However, if this los is broken by ECM, only C3 is disabled, thus the only thing that is negated is the sharing of targets between a lance.

While I feel I have adapted to ECM and can still use LRMs to some degree in most matches, it still feels too powerful and often frustrating for what it costs to bring to the table and it certainly affects all of the builds currently run in the metagame. The above quote to me sums up how ECM ought to work. Direct LOS locking for missles should be possible without TAG..for nothing else but to give A-1 cats another purpose besides SRM boating. It should also nullify artemis, BAP, etc.... Would be very cool as if done in this way ONLY a mech with BAP would know it wasn't seeing mechs targeted by others, and only the mechs in its LOS (i.e. it would be the only one to get a "low signal" warning - all other mechs would see some targets but not realize that 3 more mechs are tracking towards him while steamrolling his lancemate).

If nothing else, limit it to only blocking radar/locks for mechs inside its bubble. If an ECM mech is not within 180m of me, I should be able to lock targets and share C3 info.

ECM won't make me quit and the game is still fun, but it, like other aspects of the game, still needs adjustment.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Kousagi, on 11 February 2013 - 09:02 PM, said:

You are right in that ECM does nothing to TT LRM's, but! LRM's got changed from TT to MWO. Different guidance systems, So naturally with MWO LRM's locking on, ( unlike TT ) ECM now kills them.

Don't understand this one right here. Yes we are not rollling dice to determine if the volley hits, how many missiles impacted, and where they hit, but otherwise the guidance system is exactly the same. LRM's in TT are guided weapons. Every rulebook and sourcebook confirms this. The only unguided missile weapons in BT are MRM's and Rocket Launchers. The description on MRM's even states that they purposely removed guidance systems to allow for more punch. Even standard SRM's are guided weapons. LRM's in TT are not unguided artillery rounds shot into the air in the hopes they will land on their target. Fairly simplistic and easy to lose lock (since you have to roll to see how many make it to the target) but they are guided weapons in TT. And for that matter have been guided weapons in all previous versions of MW as well, and worked just fine without being OP or needing the ECM of god to nerf them.

[Teralitha]

more votes

[Streeter]

Im afraid to say ECM was what probably stopped me playing. I guess a bit of it was burnt out and waiting for sorely needed new features to come as well.

I got all the ECM mechs and did very well in them if thats considered "adapting" dont like the way the game plays now so just started playing other games instead.


I wonder how many others are like me and waiting for something to be added to offset the fail of ECM LOL

anyway this is my weekly check up on Mechwarrior to see if anything has changed or been added... see you again next week.

[Kousagi]

Tincan Nightmare, on 11 February 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

Don't understand this one right here. Yes we are not rollling dice to determine if the volley hits, how many missiles impacted, and where they hit, but otherwise the guidance system is exactly the same. LRM's in TT are guided weapons. Every rulebook and sourcebook confirms this. The only unguided missile weapons in BT are MRM's and Rocket Launchers. The description on MRM's even states that they purposely removed guidance systems to allow for more punch. Even standard SRM's are guided weapons. LRM's in TT are not unguided artillery rounds shot into the air in the hopes they will land on their target. Fairly simplistic and easy to lose lock (since you have to roll to see how many make it to the target) but they are guided weapons in TT. And for that matter have been guided weapons in all previous versions of MW as well, and worked just fine without being OP or needing the ECM of god to nerf them.

You misunderstand something. Guidance does not mean lock on. There are tons of different guidance systems for missiles. MRM's are a oddity, and honestly who ever wrote them in to the game didn't know much about naming weapons... As Rockets are unguided, and missiles are guided. You can't have unguided missiles, because they are rockets...

Though, What guidance system standard LRM's use in TT can be argued since its never flat out stated what they use, we can tell what they don't use by the other ammo types. Though in MWO, how they act is different from TT. As the main reason that LRM's in TT are not hurt by ECM is their self contained guidance, meaning they get no outside help, and when other systems do give them outside help ( Artemis ) it gets jammed by ECM. Well it gets jammed so long as its a RF type of outside help, as Tag is a IR laser, it can't be jammed.

However!, LRM's in MWO get outside help from launch, since they can not track a target without the Mech itself having a lock. This means the Mech's targeting system is guiding the missiles, which means they do not have a self contained guidance system.