452 replies to this topic

[Lootee]

Badgerbanger, on 13 February 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

It's here to stay because the devs like it and they won't give a monkey's what the customer wants, until they stop paying.

Well their master plan is working. I haven't played a match in over a month and resubscribed to SWTOR and been buying vintage MTG cards with my discretionary income instead.

If anyone knows about vintage MTG prices they know the cards cost hundreds or even thousands of dollars. The best part about the hobby is PGI doesn't see a cent of it. So bravo on their devious scheme.

They may have suckered a little cash off myself and other founders but I guarantee you never again and that goes for any other product they develop in the future too.

Most players that get disgusted and quit don't start ragequit threads. We just stop logging on and stop paying. The only reason I even bother checking the forum is the dwindling hope they might start fixing bugs and making game balance less horrific.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 13 February 2013 - 09:19 AM.

[Teralitha]

PanchoTortilla, on 13 February 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

Well their master plan is working. I haven't played a match in over a month and resubscribed to SWTOR and been buying vintage MTG cards with my discretionary income instead.

If anyone knows about vintage MTG prices they know the cards cost hundreds or even thousands of dollars. The best part about the hobby is PGI doesn't see a cent of it. So bravo on their devious scheme.

They may have suckered a little cash off myself and other founders but I guarantee you never again and that goes for any other product they develop in the future too.

Most players that get disgusted and quit don't start ragequit threads. We just stop logging on and stop paying. The only reason I even bother checking the forum is the dwindling hope they might start fixing bugs and making game balance less horrific.

You know, they want to make this free to play game work, but its missing various elements of a successfult free to play game.... balance being one of them. Economy being another... Really cool stuff is yet another. Oh yea... I hate base capping also.

In the last 6 months I have spent about $400 on 2 other free to play games that Ive been playing on the side apart from MWO, and I have yet to find a reason to spend any money on MWO. I hate the way its balanced, I hate the the lack of a real economy, I dont care about fluff or paint jobs or hero mechs. The last bit might have to do with my favorite mechs not being in the game yet, but still... the poor balance and no economy make the game stagnant. Lack of more game modes that "PEOPLE WANT" is another problem. What does your telemetry tell you about how your new game mode is being recieved hmm?

The 2 biggest balance issues in the game atm are overpowered ECM, and no knockdowns. Paul I heard what you said in the podcast about ECM, and unless your future counters include a module that boosts your radar strength so that ECM doesnt affect it, then ECM is still going to be too strong. The whole stealth bubble thing has to go. All the other functions can stay. Dont you think it would be easier to take something away from ECM so you dont have to create MORE counters for it? You are just making it too complicated.

As for economy.... You really should make salvage be items instead of cbills. There simply is a thrill in finding loot. Its psycological. And people like to trade. People enjoy crafting. It is not impossible for you to implement a crafting and trading and loot system in this game and make it work like a charm. Find equipement from salvage. Find resources from salvage to craft equipment. A market to buy and sell equipment from either loot or crafting. But you also need a way for these things to leave the game as well enter it to keep things flowing.

A PVE version would draw in alot more players types also.

Edited by Teralitha, 13 February 2013 - 12:30 PM.

[Twisted Power]

Teralitha, on 13 February 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

You know, they want to make this free to play game work, but its missing various elements of a successfult free to play game.... Really cool stuff is yet another.

Dude while I dislike ECM I have to say there is a lot of "really cool stuff" in this game. Mechs being one of them. I log onto MWO because of this cool stuff. I turn the game off after 3-5 matches (even though I generally win said matches) because of ECM.

Edited by Twisted Power, 13 February 2013 - 01:33 PM.

[DocBach]

Teralitha, on 13 February 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

As for economy.... You really should make salvage be items instead of cbills. There simply is a thrill in finding loot. Its psycological. And people like to trade. People enjoy crafting. It is not impossible for you to implement a crafting and trading and loot system in this game and make it work like a charm. Find equipement from salvage. Find resources from salvage to craft equipment. A market to buy and sell equipment from either loot or crafting. But you also need a way for these things to leave the game as well enter it to keep things flowing.

A PVE version would draw in alot more players types also.

This, so much.

I had an idea that salvage chassis could be earned when you kill a 'Mech - to get stuff out of them you can use standard techs , which are free, but you have a very narrow chance of salvaging anything other than c-bills. Hiring better techs with C-bills would increase the odds of an item, and enhance the amount of c-bills gained if no items are salvaged. Elite techs you hire with MC give better odds of salvaging unique items, or provide salvage bonuses much greater than the other level of techs. To salvage Clan tech the free techs will only salvage c-bills, no unique components. The C-bill and MC techs have lower success rates of salvaging Clan equipment to help limit massed proliferation of Clan Tech.

You get a carrot on a stick, and a great money sink which is way more fun and player oriented than the current salvage system.

[MischiefSC]

DocBach, on 13 February 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

This, so much.

I had an idea that salvage chassis could be earned when you kill a 'Mech - to get stuff out of them you can use standard techs , which are free, but you have a very narrow chance of salvaging anything other than c-bills. Hiring better techs with C-bills would increase the odds of an item, and enhance the amount of c-bills gained if no items are salvaged. Elite techs you hire with MC give better odds of salvaging unique items, or provide salvage bonuses much greater than the other level of techs. To salvage Clan tech the free techs will only salvage c-bills, no unique components. The C-bill and MC techs have lower success rates of salvaging Clan equipment to help limit massed proliferation of Clan Tech.

You get a carrot on a stick, and a great money sink which is way more fun and player oriented than the current salvage system.

You know, this isn't a bad idea at all. It really isn't. Not a small investment in terms of development but that is a pretty huge chunk of the F2P market.

The complexities of economics and support are a powerful draw for a lot of people. Especially when you get into organized teams and official mercenary groups with pooled resources. Someone who's not a great FPS player but loves the R&R, scavenging and crafting side of things would fall right into this where as just the FPS aspect of the game not so much.

[Teralitha]

Fact is ECM takes no skill to equip on your mech and have it function to full capacity no matter what your pilot skill level is. No aiming required, no line of sight required, no use of cover required.

While everyone else that doesnt have ECM has to become better pilots to overcome ECM. Even using ECCM requires skill. But ECM alone does not.

The voters have spoken. The feature is flawed. Change it.

Edited by Teralitha, 13 February 2013 - 01:48 PM.

[Abivard]

lol, you must admit many of your hate ECM voters haven't even played in monthes, a lot of the rest make claims about the game that bear small resemblance to actual gameplay.
If you have trouble using LRM's, it is you not ECM,
if you have trouble keeping track of friends and enemy it is YOU, not ECM
If your team is always losing, it is you not ECM.
If you find certain builds impossible to beat, it is You.
The changing game is not the problem, it is the unchanging you that is.

Adapt,Improvise and Overcome. Or Die, again it is up to you.

[Fitzbattleaxe]

Abivard, on 13 February 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

lol, you must admit many of your hate ECM voters haven't even played in monthes, a lot of the rest make claims about the game that bear small resemblance to actual gameplay.
If you have trouble using LRM's, it is you not ECM,
if you have trouble keeping track of friends and enemy it is YOU, not ECM
If your team is always losing, it is you not ECM.
If you find certain builds impossible to beat, it is You.
The changing game is not the problem, it is the unchanging you that is.

Adapt,Improvise and Overcome. Or Die, again it is up to you.

You could use a similar argument to claim that no game mechanic in any game in the history of civilization has been overpowered. Let's make a single machine gun round do 50 damage. If you can't beat it, it's your own fault.

[Lootee]

Abivard, on 13 February 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

lol, you must admit many of your hate ECM voters haven't even played in monthes, a lot of the rest make claims about the

Precisely this game is not and has not been worth playing for months. The overpowered 4 in 1 wonder tech is still the same as the day it started warping the game into DDC and Raven 3L online.

When 2/3 of players believe a game mechanic is imbalanced. When the first thing players ask when a new mech is unveiled is "Does it have an ECM variant?". When players that used to play every day quit logging on for months at a time. When the game's core demographic, and vested users who paid into the game on faith alone when there was practically no product are abandoning it in droves, this is what is known as 'a clue'.

Get one.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 13 February 2013 - 04:09 PM.

[Drenzul]

My only problem with ECM is how it affects build diversity negatively.

What lights or fast mids do you see that aren't ECM?
Pretty much only the ones where people need to get them up to get their extra qualifications on the other mechs.

Same with Atlases, the differences in load-out simply aren't worth the extra benefits that ECM brings for FAR too light a cost.

As far as ECM itself is concerned, I like the mechanic, I don't have a problem with how it functions in general, my only problem is that it a damm over-powerful affect for something that costs the same as 1 small laser + 1 HS....

I don't' think there is any argument that its more powerful than anything of it's corresponding weight and size.

Simply put, ECM either needs to be equal weight/slots to the other equipment of equal value or at the very least bring it's own set of disadvantages with it, heres a few it could choose between:

Loadout Nerf - Ecm boats have less slots and/or very non-optimal slots
Power Drain - Ecm uses a lot of power, reduces max speed, turning e.t.c. Weapons reload slower e.t.c.
You can see what? - ECM is putting out a load of interference, unfortunately interference doesn't really understand friendly fire so the ECM boat is jammed itself while disrupting (Not countering)
You can see me! - Well, the ECM boat is putting out a lot of transmissions, even if its masking it's friends, it shouldn't actually be hard to get at least a rough location on the jammer itself. (Also added a way to turn it off making ECM usage more tactical)
Mega-Death - You know how capacitors go bang a lot (like in Gauss) when shot, well the type of capacitors ECM would need could easily short from EMP... BOOM! ECM boats go bang like Gauss
Sensitive Equipment - Lets face it, broad spectrum radio transmitters aren't exactly durable. Every hit to the location of the jammer could do it damage (possibly risking explosion?) that could disable or destroy it or at least reduce it's range, even when the Mech has armour left.

Or we could introduce HARM.

For anyone who doesn't know, HARM stands for High velocity Anti-Radiation Missile, basically when there is ECM about, you fire it up into the air, it looks down, goes 'Oh look, I can detect a lot of ECM from there' and heads straight for the nearest active ECM source, ECM source either turns it's ECM off before the missiles hit or takes the damage, they pretty much have a lock as long as the ECM is turned on.

These also work on Radar sources but since the only thing that uses active lock-ons in the BT universe are missiles in flight, they wouldn't be too much use there

[Thorqemada]

Abivard, on 13 February 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

lol, you must admit many of your hate ECM voters haven't even played in monthes, a lot of the rest make claims about the game that bear small resemblance to actual gameplay.
If you have trouble using LRM's, it is you not ECM,
if you have trouble keeping track of friends and enemy it is YOU, not ECM
If your team is always losing, it is you not ECM.
If you find certain builds impossible to beat, it is You.
The changing game is not the problem, it is the unchanging you that is.

Adapt,Improvise and Overcome. Or Die, again it is up to you.

I will ask some questions and anser them so its more easy for you:
LRMs have already many counters like Cover, AMS, Speed, Agility - is it balanced to hand out a tool that on top of all counters makes it impossible to use them with having a direct LOS?
No!

In a game that has players fight each other in similar or identical looking Mechs - is it balanced to take away the IFF info?
No!

If the team with more ECM has a significant bigger chance to win bcs they get exclusivity of weapons systems and target info - is that balanced?
No!

If a piece of equipment makes Mechs received as "inferior" suddenly the best choice of all variants - is that balanced?
No!

ECM unbalances the game, narrows down the choices for the competitive gamer, narrows down the tactics and makes the gameplay less diverse in the current iteration, is a frustration factor for new players and a Anti PUG Measure bcs it makes pugging exponential more complicated as it takes away the ability to share info without having to type in a combat pressure situation.
PUGs are >The POOL< from which this game will get paying players and players that join into Units and organized matchmaking.

ECM imho has brought more financial hurt than help to this game!

[Gremlich Johns]

Drenzul, on 13 February 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

My only problem with ECM is how it affects build diversity negatively.

What lights or fast mids do you see that aren't ECM?
Pretty much only the ones where people need to get them up to get their extra qualifications on the other mechs.

Same with Atlases, the differences in load-out simply aren't worth the extra benefits that ECM brings for FAR too light a cost.

As far as ECM itself is concerned, I like the mechanic, I don't have a problem with how it functions in general, my only problem is that it a damm over-powerful affect for something that costs the same as 1 small laser + 1 HS....

I don't' think there is any argument that its more powerful than anything of it's corresponding weight and size.

Simply put, ECM either needs to be equal weight/slots to the other equipment of equal value or at the very least bring it's own set of disadvantages with it, heres a few it could choose between:

Loadout Nerf - Ecm boats have less slots and/or very non-optimal slots
Power Drain - Ecm uses a lot of power, reduces max speed, turning e.t.c. Weapons reload slower e.t.c.
You can see what? - ECM is putting out a load of interference, unfortunately interference doesn't really understand friendly fire so the ECM boat is jammed itself while disrupting (Not countering)
You can see me! - Well, the ECM boat is putting out a lot of transmissions, even if its masking it's friends, it shouldn't actually be hard to get at least a rough location on the jammer itself. (Also added a way to turn it off making ECM usage more tactical)
Mega-Death - You know how capacitors go bang a lot (like in Gauss) when shot, well the type of capacitors ECM would need could easily short from EMP... BOOM! ECM boats go bang like Gauss
Sensitive Equipment - Lets face it, broad spectrum radio transmitters aren't exactly durable. Every hit to the location of the jammer could do it damage (possibly risking explosion?) that could disable or destroy it or at least reduce it's range, even when the Mech has armour left.

Or we could introduce HARM.

For anyone who doesn't know, HARM stands for High velocity Anti-Radiation Missile, basically when there is ECM about, you fire it up into the air, it looks down, goes 'Oh look, I can detect a lot of ECM from there' and heads straight for the nearest active ECM source, ECM source either turns it's ECM off before the missiles hit or takes the damage, they pretty much have a lock as long as the ECM is turned on.

These also work on Radar sources but since the only thing that uses active lock-ons in the BT universe are missiles in flight, they wouldn't be too much use there

Many of my same arguments!!

Seyla!

[Teralitha]

Abivard, on 13 February 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

lol, you must admit many of your hate ECM voters haven't even played in monthes, a lot of the rest make claims about the game that bear small resemblance to actual gameplay.
If you have trouble using LRM's, it is you not ECM,
if you have trouble keeping track of friends and enemy it is YOU, not ECM
If your team is always losing, it is you not ECM.
If you find certain builds impossible to beat, it is You.
The changing game is not the problem, it is the unchanging you that is.

Adapt,Improvise and Overcome. Or Die, again it is up to you.

And what do you have to say to somoene that doesnt have any of these issues of skill and still hates ecm?

[DocBach]

There's only 800 voters so far, its way too small of a percentage to base how the community feels about ECM, which as we all know is completely fair and balanced.

[MasterGoa]

Apoc1138, on 01 February 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

this poll will end up the same as all the other ECM threads, pretty much 40/40 pro/anti with about 20% who don't really care

Nope, 28 form 55 against...

[Metafox]

ECM doesn't hurt my own gameplay experience that much, but the reason I enjoy MWO a bit less is because of what it's done to light mechs. We were setting up a competitive drop the other night and our drop captain told the light pilots that they had to use raven-3Ls. I completely agreed with him. Why is there only one viable competitive light mech variant? ECM. I'm disappointed that my teammates in light mechs are forced to use only one variant.

[StalaggtIKE]

Abivard, on 13 February 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

lol, you must admit many of your hate ECM voters haven't even played in monthes, a lot of the rest make claims about the game that bear small resemblance to actual gameplay.
If you have trouble using LRM's, it is you not ECM,
if you have trouble keeping track of friends and enemy it is YOU, not ECM
If your team is always losing, it is you not ECM.
If you find certain builds impossible to beat, it is You.
The changing game is not the problem, it is the unchanging you that is.

Adapt,Improvise and Overcome. Or Die, again it is up to you.

You forgot players like me. I've been playing weekly and refuse to play anything but my D-DC.


Was it ECM or just me?

[ShadowThunder77]

i barely play anymore cause its not as fun since ECM came along.

[Tennex]

StalaggtIKE, on 14 February 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

You forgot players like me. I've been playing weekly and refuse to play anything but my D-DC.


Was it ECM or just me?

are we just ignoring the PGI staff playing in your game lol.

[StalaggtIKE]

Tennex, on 14 February 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

are we just ignoring the PGI staff playing in your game lol.

Funny story, neither did we in-game. It was only after I reviewed the screen shots, that I noticed them.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 14 February 2013 - 10:02 AM.