452 replies to this topic

[Lykaon]

PrestonCDawg, on 01 February 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

It's great, it makes you diversify your load outs and makes you think. You can't just run a targeted missile boat without consequence. Also it makes people communicate and gives certain team mates roles on the battle field.

Are you joking?

Diversify loadouts? it does the opposite of diversify.

What light mech should I take...hmm...let's see here um...RAVEN 3L always the best choice.

What assault mech? um...Atlas DDC best choice unless you want to run a cheddar boat then it's a stalker.

Well there's two weight classes paired down to three choices.

Take a heavy? well I could just take another ECM mech instead so um...Atlas DDC

Pilot a medium? well Cicadas have ECM right?

Do I bring LRMs or streaks? well yes to streaks if you are in a Raven 3L since each and every Raven 3L seems to have 2 SSRM2 launchers glued in place.No to LRMs unless I'm in a premade or want to roll the dice on pugs being helpful to LRM targeting.

Soon PPCs will be another weapon system dictated by ECM.

Modules well we need to load counter ECM modules as priority over modules I would rather have to enhance my playstyle.

Here is your diversity...

Light mechs= Raven 3L
Medium mechs= a waste of mech that could have been an Atlas DDC or Raven unless it is an ECM Cicada.
Heavy mechs= should have been an Atlas DDC or it's one of the following post ECM approved builds

1) Splatter cat (6 SRM6s)
2) Blatcat (2 AC20s)
3) Cataphract 5x lrg laser
4) Hero phract with tripple UAC5s

Assault mech= Atlass DDC or PPC boat stalker

As for communication?

PuGs don't do that and even when they try to type by the time the intel is typed and read and comprehended by the team it's old news.Premades have always used communication via comms so ECM changed this factor in no way for premades.

Roles?

You mean ECM light or ECM assault right? unless you mean you wish to play one of the 5 other non ecm mech builds.

7 mech builds that out perform everything else in the post ECM game is not variety it's quite the opposite.


Oh sure you can pilot something else if you want to play "hard" mode or play with a handycap but the reality is these six mech builds are all you will ever need.

[IrrelevantFish]

I would argue that it's not ECM that's the problem, but ECM-bearing scout mechs. While not a complete fix, I would love to see PGI do the following:

1) make TAG counter ECM regardless of range
2) make NARC counter the target mech's ECM
3) scale an ECM's effective range by the equipped mech's tonnage


In my experience, it's quite doable to snipe an Atlas providing an ECM umbrella, either with direct weapons fire or with a TAGging scout, but Cicadas and Ravens are impossible to counter. If the pilot is even moderately competent, sniping is impossible, dueling with another scout takes far too long, and TAGs are practically worthless. In the time it takes an LRM salvo to land, they can easily take cover behind a building, close distance for long enough to counter the TAG lock, or simply wait for the rest of their team to blow the TAGger to bits.

Frankly, it seems like too often the outcome of a match is determined by who has the most Ravens.

[Lootee]

Does too much and costs too little.

Where's my Ultra-Streak-ER-Pulse-PPC that weighs 2 tons and takes 1 crit slot?

That's pretty much what they did with ECM. Combined 3 or 4 different pieces of tech into 1, gave it a bunch of extra powers that no equipment in the TT game had, and then gave it the fewest drawbacks of the whole bunch. Now they tell you to spend 5,000-15,000 gxp and 6,000,000+ c-bills on modules to try to counteract their Guardian-Angel-Null-Klingon-Cloaking-device which costs far less to acquire.

Terrible judgement on the part of the designers, AGAIN.

Haven't logged in to play MWO for about a month now and unless the Trebuchet is something amazing, probably not any time soon.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 02 February 2013 - 12:04 PM.

[Little Nemo]

If we didn'thave ECM it would be everyone crying about streaks. Now, those people cry about ECM.

[Accursed Richards]

PanchoTortilla, on 02 February 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Does too much and costs too little.

Where's my Ultra-Streak-ER-Pulse-PPC that weighs 2 tons and takes 1 crit slot?

Pretty much this. There isn't one other piece of equipment that skews gameplay as much as ECM, regardless of weight or crit spaces. Buffing other random things to try and counter it won't change the fact that it's still a "well duh" choice so long as you have to give up so little to gain such a big advantage.

Skinny Pete, on 02 February 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

If we didn'thave ECM it would be everyone crying about streaks. Now, those people cry about ECM.

Then fix streaks. As it stands, if you don't have ECM, then LRM's & streaks are rather overpowered, vs virtually useless if you do have ECM. That's a poor way to go about balance, not to mention a pointless kick in the pants for PUG's, who can't coordinate their loadouts.

Edited by Accursed Richards, 02 February 2013 - 12:05 PM.

[DocBach]

Skinny Pete, on 02 February 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

If we didn'thave ECM it would be everyone crying about streaks. Now, those people cry about ECM.

If a majority of players are crying about anything, its usually a clue that something is wrong with an aspect of a game. It's probably best for the longevity of a game to keep customers happy.

[DocBach]

An update for those posters who say the polls don't say people dislike ECM: according to this poll, 25% of players think ECM made the game better, 15% are indifferent, 60% think it made the game worse.

Edited by DocBach, 02 February 2013 - 01:44 PM.

[Fitzbattleaxe]

Ecm as it stands can kill scouting and it can nearly kill the long range game. It should be the case that ecm makes you a more effective scout, because you can run around without being detected as easily, but instead what happens is that you just run around the rest of your team, keeping them under your bubble, because that's more important than knowing the location of enemies that you can't effectively target with LRMs. So your team has you clumped together bubble, and the other team has theirs, and you don't really engage in any meaningful way until you get within 500m or so.

Now I'm not saying all matches are like that, and it's certainly far, far better than it was before the netcode improvements (and I still had fun, even back then), but it still happens a little too often, I think. If you need to reduce the effectiveness of LRMs, you can add more cover to the maps, and you can reduce their tracking ability a little. Same for SSRMs, in regard to tracking - they shouldn't all hit no matter how bad your aim is and how fast your target is running.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

Accursed Richards, on 02 February 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Then fix streaks. As it stands, if you don't have ECM, then LRM's & streaks are rather overpowered, vs virtually useless if you do have ECM. That's a poor way to go about balance, not to mention a pointless kick in the pants for PUG's, who can't coordinate their loadouts.

Could not agree more. What I see a lot today (weekend = premade stomping time) 1 ECM/LRM atlas, 2 ECM/Streak raven and one streak cat or streak stalker. 'sploit ravens engage and tie up the team while atlas sits back and rains LRMs giving the stalker time to close and slaughter with streaks. It works extremely well on caustic where there is minimal cover. If you try to engage the ravens you are open to LRM fire. If you dont they focus fire you down one at a time. By the time the streak cat or stalker shows up everyone is so beat up that they start to drop in only a few volleys...

SO.. the point is not that I keep getting owned by good tactics and co-ordination. its a part of pug life that I can deal with (though never will I have respect for streak pilots or to a lesser extend 100 ton missile support pilots (grow some balls and engage )). The point is that without ECM its till a viable tactic EXCEPT the other team could also abuse the broken streak mechanic if it wasn't for ECM dominance being only reliably available to pre-made teams.

TLDR; ECM isnt the problem.. Streaks, and to a much lesser extent LRMs, are. Fix those first then reduce the effect ECM has on them.

[DocBach]

ECM is a major problem on its own. The fact that it completely trashes any sort of team work or coordination even further than being in a PUG drop without speech communication is a game killer for most people who play casually.

[Umbra8]

The biggest problem with ECM is that it destroys teamwork. It does this by preventing the C3 targeting and transmission network from transmitting mech locations even when you are outside of its 180 meter bubble, as mechs inside the bubble are undetectable until 200 meters . Detecting and locking on to another mech you can see is the primary means of communicating enemy movements without using chat or third party software (e.g. teamspeak) to do so. It's the C3 network that allows the coordinated movement and reliable information that's required for executing manoeuvres using grid locations. With ECM in the game, you simply cannot rely on this to be accurate and if an ECM equipped mech has closed with your allies, you will not know or even see if they are in trouble unless you happen to be nearby. This has reduced all sensible strategy to 'clump into a ball, LOS only' unless there is a wild disparity in ECM capable mechs on each team. This then translates into Brawler mechs or high speed lights being the most effective builds in the metagame.

In short, the choice to add stealth armour to the guardian ECM package at no cost (you would have had to use 12 crits and 10 heat in TT to do the same. Citation: http://www.sarna.net...i/Stealth_Armor) has crippled communications, narrowed the range of effective tactics and mech builds to the detriment of all.

Edited by Umbra8, 02 February 2013 - 03:46 PM.

[Shismar]

ECM has improved my pug experience because it did curb the excessive use of LRMs and SSRMs. If, as a solo player, one would encounter a premade, it would almost always have some LRM boats and a spotter. Even with AMS and using cover, chances were that part of the team would be obliterated by focused LRM fire before having any chance to have mentionable impact. Add to that the obnoxious StreakCats and those streak Ravens become a laughable threat.

Sure, there could be some improvements. Collisions would go a long way to counter those pesky lights. But I already see very different match constellations and almost every mech played frequently. If anything, the LRM boats seem to be back and continue to be a pain in the rear.

[LionZoo]

It's actually kind of sad. I think ECM has really lessened my enjoyment of the game because it further divides Mechs into OP and second class categories. In theory, ECM is actually the type of hardware that should appeal to me as my prefered playstyle is sneaking around in light Mechs. However, in practice the current ECM is just too strong. I can run an entire night in my ECM Raven without dying, and at that point it's just not that fun anymore.

[Ursh]

Here's the thing.

In the 1980s, the military developed frequency hopping radios and sensors. They relay information by hopping frequencies a few hundred times per second.

ECM would have to jam an ungodly number of frequencies to achieve what it does now, which requires an enormous amount of power. Effectively, ECM should prevent the host mech, and most of it's neighbors, from using any communications or locking on radar at all.

Edited by Ursh, 02 February 2013 - 04:17 PM.

[Livebait]

I think ECM in its current form has made the game less fun. It's ability to render so much other equipment mostly useless is just poor design. The devs have said they are going to tweak it. I hope they listen to some of the really good ideas put forth by the community.

[Gremlich Johns]

A single light thrashing several Assault mechs during a single match too easily. I call BS.

ECM covering friendly mechs not possessing ECM and enabling THEM to use streaks with impunity, I call BS on that too.

If ECM is on, nobody's systems work, not even the mech carrying the ECM.

ECM puts out heat and is not affected in-game - require an additional heatsink if ECM is installed. That or package it with one and make it 2.5 tons.

SSRMs not being able to be dumb-fired, I call BS.

No mandatory VOIP comms in-game that cannot be jammed - get on it.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 02 February 2013 - 04:31 PM.

[Munchausen]

The ridiculous thing about it is not even that it's anti-equipment, but that it's actually anti-gameplay. Way back in cb there was all this talk about role warfare and how you'd have a scout gathering information for you. That was supposed to be the POINT of scouts. But now, the "role" of lights is to carry these devices that violate the very gameplay they were supposed to foster.

I mean, if you want a game of brawling mechs with no radar and no information, just turn it off for everybody. Why bother implementing radar, target ID, and shared lock in the first place if you want it to be so easy to ruin all those things?

[DocBach]

Munchausen, on 02 February 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

The ridiculous thing about it is not even that it's anti-equipment, but that it's actually anti-gameplay. Way back in cb there was all this talk about role warfare and how you'd have a scout gathering information for you. That was supposed to be the POINT of scouts. But now, the "role" of lights is to carry these devices that violate the very gameplay they were supposed to foster.

I mean, if you want a game of brawling mechs with no radar and no information, just turn it off for everybody. Why bother implementing radar, target ID, and shared lock in the first place if you want it to be so easy to ruin all those things?

"What do you mean? ECM diversifies the game play! Learn to play!"

[Gigastrike]

Well, I like the game now more than I did when it was LRMwarrior Online. I guess it's a step up.

[Munchausen]

lol. Yeah, diversifies it as in makes it into a different game. That's all I'm saying. And I understand some people like the "new" game more than they liked the "old" game, but let's all admit that it is very different. And if it's going to stay this way then I'd much rather we just turn everything off for everybody. Impose a permanent ECM bubble over every match. Then we might as well remove all weapons that are not direct-fire, make the maps even smaller, and throw collisions back in. We'll all be brawling anyway, might as well enable physical attacks.