452 replies to this topic

[Javok]

ECM is fine, the problem is putting ECM on lights, on any lights, they were already broken as a consequence of bad netcoding.

And that is simply stupid.

Edited by Javok, 07 February 2013 - 04:37 PM.

[Donas]

The sheer quantity of discussion warrants ECM being given a second look, as well as SSRMs and LRMs. We're in Beta, so everything should be changeable/fixable, yes?

After getting the pugs i got dropped into ambush-stomped 4 or 5 pug matches in a row the other night, I decided to give an ECM mech a whirl, not as an exploiter, but as a countermeasure. I took a commando, put ECM and Tag on it, and SSRMs. My thought was to try my hand at scouting, Tagging ECM bubbled mechs until I could get into close enough range to disrupt enemy ECMs and light them up with streaks. Tagging anything that moved the entire time.

It worked pretty well, and was kinda fun as a break from my normal mode, which is a non ECM toe-to-toe brawling Atlas (which is an all or nothing build, since you have to work to close range intact, a challenge I enjoy).

That being said, in a PUG? how often are you going to run across someone that is willing to pilot a purely anti-ECM mech? I know I've never seen anyone say anything in team chat to the effect of "guys, I'm gonna scout and neutralize ECM". So the majority of PUGs I play in the only viable tactic becomes 'stick together or we'll be ripped apart'. I've seen some pretty cool ideas in this thread about things that could balance ECM out a bit. For example:

Having one ECM counter all other ECMs in range.
Increasing the range of Tag to 750 meters.

I have some other thoughts and these are just spitballing but here goes..

Decrease the effective bubble of protection that ECM provides.

Have Tag allow positional communication, and lockon, but not give out target info or paperdoll. ( its a targetting laser, it seems feasible that it would be unaffected by ECM which has no visual special effect, and as TAG is a point-and-reflect detecting method it would not give any detailed info other than position)

The LRM's? Drop the damage back down to where it was when it wasn't LRMageddon.
Streaks? dunno the fix here. perhaps make them relock in between shots? since its the missile that has to lock, and not the targetting system? beats me.

Its all rock scissors paper, and things work better if there is more than one counter for everything. That way, if you dont have counter method A, you have to use counter method B. Thats diversity, at least in my mind. YMMV.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

I have played 8 games so far tonight. in 6 of those 8 there was at least one ecm mechs and in one game there were 5

a single piece of equipment proliferating like that shows how powerful it is

Donas, on 07 February 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

The LRM's? Drop the damage back down to where it was when it wasn't LRMageddon.

how low would be good to you? When they were ONE TENTH of a point lower, they were regarded as so weak you could ignore them. Now (at 1.8) theyre so OP theyre breaking the game.

[Donas]

Beats me. Was spitballing ideas. Was the last damage adjustment really just a tenth of a point? I cant find the last patch notes where they mentioned it. I think it was in january, but at 3:24 am, I do not have the ability to find it. lol

Edit: ok went and looked around. from what I can find, when they went from 2.0 down to 1.7, they also suffered nerfs to accuracy and hit frequency, as well as the "warning, incoming missiles" so it was like a quadruple nerf. So without getting too sidetracked, perhaps the answer is more tweaking of the 1.7 to accuracy/precision/AoA, since all of those other things affect their overall effectiveness.

If I'm hiding, lrms dont get to me that much, if I get spotted and pinned somewhere, or in the open? lrms chew me up. So I suppose its possible that there's nothing wrong with them at all, since thats what they're supposed to do, yes?

At any rate, just mulling ideas, wasnt meaning to make it sound like some uber-final-genus-superfix, in case it came off like that.

Edited by Donas, 08 February 2013 - 12:48 AM.

[Erasus Magnus]

Codejack, on 01 February 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

I've read it, but I still disagree; if anything, the effectiveness of missiles should be reduced, BAP, TAG, NARC, Artemis, etc should improve them to where they are now, and ECM should counter those AND THAT'S IT. Then let anyone mount ECM.

i dont know if further nerfing lrms is the way to go. when was the last time you got killed by lrms?
I cant even tell, i think it was when they first implemented artemis.
they are annoying, thats about it.

Javok, on 07 February 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

ECM is fine, the problem is putting ECM on lights, on any lights, they were already broken as a consequence of bad netcoding.

And that is simply stupid.

ecm lights are okay. but ecm lights with streaks are teh problemz, me thinkz.
especially ravens. dunno why but commandos are doable, while i have a lot of problems destroying ravens.
often enough i still have ravens that are stupendously backpaddeling in front of me and i seem to hit them straight in the face with my 9 medium lasers, yet they only take minor damage.

Edited by Erasus Magnus, 08 February 2013 - 12:50 AM.

[JadePanther]

cdlord, on 01 February 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

This is buried so no one will probably see it but as it stands, ECM is improperly implemented.

In MWO ECM does the job of 3 pieces of equipment for the price of one. Instead of one ECM module we should be seeing:
Guardian ECM
Angel ECM
Null Signature

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Guardian_ECM
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Angel_ECM
http://www.sarna.net...ignature_System

and even buiried within all that info is this lil tidbit

---- Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles. ------

this would then allow for dumbfire on the streaks and not rendering them completely useless.. which is prolly something they should look into allowing.

Edited by JadePanther, 08 February 2013 - 01:05 AM.

[Erasus Magnus]

Fitzbattleaxe, on 02 February 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

Ecm as it stands can kill scouting and it can nearly kill the long range game. It should be the case that ....

.... If you need to reduce the effectiveness of LRMs, you can add more cover to the maps, and you can reduce their tracking ability a little. Same for SSRMs, in regard to tracking - they shouldn't all hit no matter how bad your aim is and how fast your target is running.

how much cover do you still want? all maps are so cramped with covers that everyone that is being hit constantly by lrms didnt pay attention...at all.

the only map i can recall where cover is scarce is caustic, and thats it.

and lrms are sooo damn slow...if you get the inc missile warning, look into the sky to see where the are coming from and step behind a building/rock/wreck/etc.

lately i have played some matches in my 2lrm10a hbk-4j and actually managed to kill people with lrms!. guess why! right, they stood in the river on forest colony without ecm and tried to slug it out. it was hillarious!

[Soulscour]

On one side I'm glad that streakpaults and people who boat streaks are generally less effective. On the other side, Im sad that all lights other than the Raven 3L and Commando 2D are at a huge disadvantage because of those lights. Once again I reiterate, the problem that streaks are overpowered, still remains but in a different form through ecm. I like what ecm did to LRMs. I think LRMs should require coordination and tag, and a more proactive LRM boater that sometimes has to tag his own target within line of sight instead of 900m out. So ECM did one thing right.

[Donas]

Soulscour, on 08 February 2013 - 01:37 AM, said:

I think LRMs should require coordination and tag, and a more proactive LRM boater that sometimes has to tag his own target within line of sight instead of 900m out. So ECM did one thing right.

+1

[StalaggtIKE]

Soulscour, on 08 February 2013 - 01:37 AM, said:

I like what ecm did to LRMs. I think LRMs should require coordination and tag, and a more proactive LRM boater that sometimes has to tag his own target within line of sight instead of 900m out. So ECM did one thing right.

I can accept that. However, I think ECM should also require coordination and effort on the part of the user. Instead of just simply:

• Equip ECM
  
• Play match
  
• ?????
  
• Profit!!!1!

The ECM user should at least have to attempt to stay out of los. It's stupid that I can just waltz in my RVN-3L straight across the map without any threat of retaliation. Yes, you can fire ballistics or PPC at me, however I or my team can do the same. IMO, you hiding in cover and me walking out through the open should not equate to a stalemate. I should pay for my foolishness.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 08 February 2013 - 07:09 PM.

[Dreepa]

StalaggtIKE, on 08 February 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

ecm lights are okay. but ecm lights with streaks are teh problemz, me thinkz.
especially ravens. dunno why but commandos are doable, while i have a lot of problems destroying ravens.
often enough i still have ravens that are stupendously backpaddeling in front of me and i seem to hit them straight in the face with my 9 medium lasers, yet they only take minor damage.

I kinda agree.

What baffles me: Rock paper scissor fails here. Best counter to an ECM light mech is an ECM.

[Codejack]

Skinny Pete, on 02 February 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

If we didn'thave ECM it would be everyone crying about streaks. Now, those people cry about ECM.

I was fine with streaks; ECM is stupid.

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 02 February 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

I would wager this poll has been rigged by Codejack

Wow, I didn't know I was that influential.

Or maybe, just maybe, more people agree with me than with you

[Codejack]

Sedant, on 07 February 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

ECM is here, its staying. If you don't like it that's rough, maybe you should consider a different giant robot game (not to dissuade anyone from playing this game, because it is great). Adapt or die!

It's not a matter of adapting; it's a matter of it making the game less fun and we are only in here talking about it in the hopes that it gets fixed before it kills the game and then no one can play.

Of course, that would just open the franchise up for someone else to make a Mechwarrior game, so silver linings and all that.

[Codejack]

Erasus Magnus, on 08 February 2013 - 12:47 AM, said:

i dont know if further nerfing lrms is the way to go. when was the last time you got killed by lrms?

Earlier today; I don't want to nerf the damage, just the tracking, and let Artemis, TAG, and NARC improve them up to where they are effective again, then let ECM counter that.

They shouldn't be super-powerful, but they shouldn't be useless half the time, either.

Erasus Magnus, on 08 February 2013 - 12:47 AM, said:

ecm lights are okay. but ecm lights with streaks are teh problemz, me thinkz.
especially ravens. dunno why but commandos are doable, while i have a lot of problems destroying ravens.
often enough i still have ravens that are stupendously backpaddeling in front of me and i seem to hit them straight in the face with my 9 medium lasers, yet they only take minor damage.

The problem is that they can shoot streaks at you but you can't shoot streaks back at them; my idea means that their streaks are a little better than yours, since ECM is countering your Artemis/NARC/BAP (but not TAG so you can be a little buff if you can keep it on them), but you can still shoot back.

Edited by Codejack, 10 February 2013 - 12:52 PM.

[Vahnn]

I started playing the game in January of this year, and ECM has simply always been a part of the game for me. I voted Indifferent.

I can say this, however: Those times when I lose ECM cover and I'm being blasted by a non-stop barrage of missiles are far more annoying than anything I have experienced in this game. I've tried throwing LRMs onto my CTF-2X a couple times before, and it wasn't as difficult to use the weapon with ECM as people make it out to be.

Sure, you can't start the match with an onslaught of LRM fire before your teams clash, and it's more difficult to sit back and rain death on the enemy while your team dukes it out... But I tend to use LRMs as more of a "clean up" weapon than a main weapon. When there are only a few enemies left, substantially weakend, and you have a friendly Light chasing and harassing them, that is the perfect opportunity to use those LRMs.

Getting carried away here, but I like ECM the way it is, for the most part. I think it was a smart move to lower the hit points of the ECM module, making it easier to lose it. Tag helps. NARC helps. I feel the ECM provides a nice balance to use of "fire and forget" weapons and user-aimed direct-fire weapons, and forces players to diversify their loadouts and tactics, especially tactics on a team basis.

[StalaggtIKE]

I found an interesting post on Reddit concerning ECM entitled, ECM: Study Group. It's amazing how much of this remains true 2 months later and with several counters being thrown at ECM.

Vahnn, on 10 February 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

I started playing the game in January of this year, and ECM has simply always been a part of the game for me. I voted Indifferent.

I can say this, however: Those times when I lose ECM cover and I'm being blasted by a non-stop barrage of missiles are far more annoying than anything I have experienced in this game. I've tried throwing LRMs onto my CTF-2X a couple times before, and it wasn't as difficult to use the weapon with ECM as people make it out to be.

Sure, you can't start the match with an onslaught of LRM fire before your teams clash, and it's more difficult to sit back and rain death on the enemy while your team dukes it out... But I tend to use LRMs as more of a "clean up" weapon than a main weapon. When there are only a few enemies left, substantially weakend, and you have a friendly Light chasing and harassing them, that is the perfect opportunity to use those LRMs.

Getting carried away here, but I like ECM the way it is, for the most part. I think it was a smart move to lower the hit points of the ECM module, making it easier to lose it. Tag helps. NARC helps. I feel the ECM provides a nice balance to use of "fire and forget" weapons and user-aimed direct-fire weapons, and forces players to diversify their loadouts and tactics, especially tactics on a team basis.

I appreciate your point of view, despite the fact I disagree with some of your points. I always regarded LRM to be an opener for softening targets or support during skirmishes, not so much a finisher. I also feel that ECM has limited diversity. IMO, most of the ECM mechs are the better of their chassis. Most tactics have receded to simply brawling in close range, since ECM stealths allies up to within 200m.

Btw, NARC does not help, it is negated by ECM, thus basically being useless.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 10 February 2013 - 01:24 PM.

[xtase]

Having just joined the MW universe (I played MW3 (or 4?) briefly) and MWO recently, post-ECM, I feel ECM is "supposed" to be a part of the game, as a counter to SSRM/LRM, and I hope PG/IGP introduces a few more electronic weaponry to the game.

[Gammanoob]

I like ECM it has reduced the number of mechs I need to have in my hanger to just those capable of using ECM.

Apart from the venerable and highly balanced SRM Cat of course.

Edited by Gammanoob, 10 February 2013 - 01:23 PM.

[RLBell]

Ursh, on 02 February 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

Here's the thing.

In the 1980s, the military developed frequency hopping radios and sensors. They relay information by hopping frequencies a few hundred times per second.

ECM would have to jam an ungodly number of frequencies to achieve what it does now, which requires an enormous amount of power. Effectively, ECM should prevent the host mech, and most of it's neighbors, from using any communications or locking on radar at all.

Actually, frequency hopping was invented in the 1940's by a Hollywood actress (Marlene Dietreich?) and a pianist to guide torpedoes. It took until the 1980's for the military establishments to get around the 'not invented here' problem for an idea that came from way outside the box.

Lately, it has gotten even more subtle, with transmitters using several frequencies at once and having each channel hop between frequencies to hide communication signals in the noise floor.

[Codejack]

Gammanoob, on 10 February 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

I like ECM it has reduced the number of mechs I need to have in my hanger to just those capable of using ECM.

Apart from the venerable and highly balanced SRM Cat of course.

RLBell, on 10 February 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

Actually, frequency hopping was invented in the 1940's by a Hollywood actress (Marlene Dietreich?) and a pianist to guide torpedoes. It took until the 1980's for the military establishments to get around the 'not invented here' problem for an idea that came from way outside the box.

Lately, it has gotten even more subtle, with transmitters using several frequencies at once and having each channel hop between frequencies to hide communication signals in the noise floor.

You guys don't even want to get me start on the physics of the situation; ECM counters TAG? How?! It's a laser!