452 replies to this topic

[StalaggtIKE]

Kousagi, on 11 February 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

The heat generation and crit slots is from the thermal masking, Much like how stealth armor has this same exact con.

And yet as you said, the guardian is only 1 point less on a 2d6 scale. Regardless of how it is done that's a considerable list of cons for 1 point. So according to you, the extended rules have ECM being light years better than tech that postdates it. Regardless it's a bad design. In that case, perhaps we should stick to the standard rules.

[warner2]

ECM is not changing anytime soon, the stance Paul takes in the interview is to adapt your play, and find counters, and that they are introducing further counters (presumably referring to the upcoming PPC disrupts ECM addition in the next patch).

I would have bet my right arm that over time it would have been seen that ECM was too much and that it would get toned down, but how long has it been here now in this form?

Edit: stupid form won't let me provide a link without making it an in-line media player. Basically see NGNG. Link is:


http://media.blubrry...y.net/Podcasts/ and then add MDB_0008.mp3

Edited by warner2, 12 February 2013 - 08:13 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Kousagi, on 12 February 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

However!, LRM's in MWO get outside help from launch, since they can not track a target without the Mech itself having a lock. This means the Mech's targeting system is guiding the missiles, which means they do not have a self contained guidance system.

I agree with you here. The LRM in MWO are not fire-and-forget. In fact the user must maintain lock-on through out their flight to ensure target impact. If they were self guided one could fire-and-forget. That being said ECM breaking locks was overkill and an unnecessary addition.

[Kousagi]

StalaggtIKE, on 12 February 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

And yet as you said, the guardian is only 1 point less on a 2d6 scale. Regardless of how it is done that's a considerable list of cons for 1 point. So according to you, the extended rules have ECM being light years better than tech that postdates it. Regardless it's a bad design. In that case, perhaps we should stick to the standard rules.

If comparing Null sig to ECM, the Null sig still gets more stuff. As, anything attempting to shoot at it gets a + to its hit modifier, which is something the ECM does not have, but stealth armor does have. This is why both stealth armor and ECM is required to imitate Null sig. As in the double blind rules, they still have it so you can visually see a target, so long as its in your front arc, so you can still shoot at them at long range, its just your sensors can't see them. Its much the same as MWO.

To put Null sig in to MWO would be like a mech you can't see on thermal view or any other special view and can't be detected by radar. That would be how powerful it is....

Edited by Kousagi, 12 February 2013 - 08:20 AM.

[Mancu]

It's really sad that the devs have already posted a couple of times that ECM does to much but still refuse to fix the problem.

[Mancu]

warner2, on 12 February 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

I listened to the end of that interview where he claims that ECM players now get picked off from long range and don't really affect games anymore... What a crock of ****.

In the 10 or so games I played yesterday I lost 4 to teams that ran 4 ECM mechs and won 1 where my team rushed in with 3 ECM mechs.

Edited by Mancu, 12 February 2013 - 08:26 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

warner2, on 12 February 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

ECM is not changing anytime soon, the stance Paul takes in the interview is to adapt your play, and find counters, and that they are introducing further counters (presumably referring to the upcoming PPC disrupts ECM addition in the next patch).

I would have bet my right arm that over time it would have been seen that ECM was too much and that it would get toned down, but how long has it been here now in this form?

Edit: stupid form won't let me provide a link without making it an in-line media player. Basically see NGNG. Link is:


http://media.blubrry...y.net/Podcasts/ and then add MDB_0008.mp3

I am not trying to bash the Devs, but a large part of this is probably pov. I think it has to do with the fact that when PGI plays their game, they only 4 man drop and use TS. As seen in the twitch.tv matches. It's been noted several times that the affects of ECM are mostly negated by communication (especially over TS). From their point of view, the only thing that must be countered is LRM block, which is negated fairly easily by TAG. This limited point of view, however, is noninclusive because it leaves out pugs and new players.

Also, from what I heard, he is receiving a lot of his feedback through TS. Which is also a part of the problem. Everyone is not, nor can be on TS. Thus if Paul is constantly seeking feedback through TS, he is receiving only a narrow point of view. Fact is new players usually must get accustomed to a community before they get involved in things like community TS. Thus Paul is completely neglecting the new and casual player experience. Things like ECM that strips non-verbal communication and weapon systems from the game is a great deterrent to new and casual players. Balance is being driven from the point of view of a limited scope.

However, it will change after:

• Revenue begins to decline, due to lack of new players not enjoying the steep learning curve
  
• Paul and/or devs grow bored of their current play style and explore new ones, thus changing their pov
  
• Majority of entire player base grow bored of their current play style and explore new ones, thus changing their pov
  
• Paul and/or devs actively seek out pov different from their own and considers them

I'm hoping for the last option. As it shouldn't take as long nor signal the start of the demise of the francise.

[Badgerbanger]

I will offer 2 opinions...

When I play PUG/solo I think it makes the game worse.
When I play in a squad it adds something...but am not sure it makes it better.

I usually PUG as I don't have much free time and often not at a regular timeslot....so on the whole I dislike what it means for me....effectively it diminishes the number of viable builds for me quite dramatically...meaning I can only use direct fire weapons.

On a side note..it also means i won't spend any more cash on this game...as I don't want stuff I have spent my cash on to be rendered ineffective by a dramatic new system.

Edited by Badgerbanger, 12 February 2013 - 08:54 AM.

[Mancu]

Badgerbanger, on 12 February 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

I will offer 2 opinions...

When I play PUG/solo I think it makes the game worse.
When I play in a squad it adds something...but am not sure it makes it better.

That's a very valid observation. When I play solo, as I did last night, ECM really seems to make the game a miserable experience. When I run 4 mans its a different story. We have comms which helps alot and we always have 1 or 2 players with ECM in our team. We start our drops with the words "Okay, who's running the ECM this match?" ECM shouldn't be so good that we always have to take it.

[Kaspirikay]

A quick fix is to remove lock immunity and replace it with lock on time increase.

[MischiefSC]

I know that the ECM/missile balance is exactly why I refuse to spend money on MWO and why I currently do not recommend it to my friends. I'm comfortable with the idea that I'm not alone.

The real function of ECM is to provide a disproportionate advantage to people who drop in groups with teamspeak against those who do not. It has a few other minor side effects but essentially that's what it does. It makes the game less enjoyable to pug on. Missiles are OPed based on the idea that your team will drop with ECM and attempt to remove ECM from the other team. If you're pugging you may not have ECM at all, or LRMs for that matter, so you just get screwed.

It's a bad balance and keeps me from investing myself in MWO for the long term, which kills me. I want to. It's an awesome game in a lot of ways but ECM/missile balance is enough that even with Elo I expect my stay here to be temporary if this current system is how it's going to stay. Given the absolutely constant complaints about it I hear in game when I pug and the literally constant presence of threads like this on the forum I can't imagine I'm wrong.

Which is why I choose to hope and believe that better balancing will come along. I find it highly unlikely that there are people who only play because they think the current ECM/missile balance and only spend cash on the game because of it. There are without question people who quit the game because of it and people who refuse to spend money on the game because of it.

PGI is a business and by all accounts otherwise on the model pretty savvy. My hope is that ECM/missiles will change. Deadspace 3 turned out to be crap so I'm still around, hopefully it changes before something that doesn't irritate me almost every time I play comes along.

I want to be an MWO fanatic. I want to defend spending $100 on mech bays, hero mechs and camo. Currently though I can't do that specifically because I find ECM/missile balance a deal breaker.

It's past irritating me and just makes me sad, but right now I'm hopeful. Elo is coming soon and that'll help.

[ExplodedZombie]

ECM is a good thing. Allowing everyone to run it in a match is a bad thing. We got steamrolled by 8 DDCs last night in a 4-man drop. What an odd coincidence.

[StalaggtIKE]

Kaspirikay, on 12 February 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

A quick fix is to remove lock immunity and replace it with lock on time increase.

It has both. Currently between 200m and 180m there is a 20m gap where you can in fact acquire an un-aided lock-on. However the lock-on time in increased.

MischiefSC, on 12 February 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

I know that the ECM/missile balance is exactly why I refuse to spend money on MWO and why I currently do not recommend it to my friends. I'm comfortable with the idea that I'm not alone.

The real function of ECM is to provide a disproportionate advantage to people who drop in groups with teamspeak against those who do not. It has a few other minor side effects but essentially that's what it does. It makes the game less enjoyable to pug on. Missiles are OPed based on the idea that your team will drop with ECM and attempt to remove ECM from the other team. If you're pugging you may not have ECM at all, or LRMs for that matter, so you just get screwed.

It's a bad balance and keeps me from investing myself in MWO for the long term, which kills me. I want to. It's an awesome game in a lot of ways but ECM/missile balance is enough that even with Elo I expect my stay here to be temporary if this current system is how it's going to stay. Given the absolutely constant complaints about it I hear in game when I pug and the literally constant presence of threads like this on the forum I can't imagine I'm wrong.

Which is why I choose to hope and believe that better balancing will come along. I find it highly unlikely that there are people who only play because they think the current ECM/missile balance and only spend cash on the game because of it. There are without question people who quit the game because of it and people who refuse to spend money on the game because of it.

PGI is a business and by all accounts otherwise on the model pretty savvy. My hope is that ECM/missiles will change. Deadspace 3 turned out to be crap so I'm still around, hopefully it changes before something that doesn't irritate me almost every time I play comes along.

I want to be an MWO fanatic. I want to defend spending $100 on mech bays, hero mechs and camo. Currently though I can't do that specifically because I find ECM/missile balance a deal breaker.

It's past irritating me and just makes me sad, but right now I'm hopeful. Elo is coming soon and that'll help.

This is exactly how I feel.

[MaddMaxx]

StalaggtIKE, on 01 February 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

Question: Quick, what's the fastest way to bring down an already damaged mech?

....


Times up!
Answer: It's aiming at those damaged parts. ECM hides the paperdoll that shows you this.




Question: Quick, what's the quickest way to find out your enemy's load out?

....


Times up!
Answer: It's selecting the enemy as a target with your radar. ECM also removes this.

You are correct, there is no cloaking of mechs in this game, however intel is being cloaked.

Quick, what was buddy stating?

To late, That the enemy has a "Cloak". You may define that as you see fit. Regardless of your obvious bias. NO! ECM is not a Cloak...

[StalaggtIKE]

MaddMaxx, on 12 February 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

Quick, what was buddy stating?

To late, That the enemy has a "Cloak". You may define that as you see fit. Regardless of your obvious bias. NO! ECM is not a Cloak...

Doesn't matter what it's called. ECM blocks access to paperdoll and weapon loadout up to 200m.

Is "hide" a more politically correct term for you?

[StalaggtIKE]

Kousagi, on 12 February 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

If comparing Null sig to ECM, the Null sig still gets more stuff. As, anything attempting to shoot at it gets a + to its hit modifier, which is something the ECM does not have, but stealth armor does have. This is why both stealth armor and ECM is required to imitate Null sig. As in the double blind rules, they still have it so you can visually see a target, so long as its in your front arc, so you can still shoot at them at long range, its just your sensors can't see them. Its much the same as MWO.

To put Null sig in to MWO would be like a mech you can't see on thermal view or any other special view and can't be detected by radar. That would be how powerful it is....

So, based on your statements, Null sig functions as ECM with the added benefit of hiding from thermal view. It just came with cons for ***** and giggles, I guess. Based on the time line it really exemplifies the statement, "they don't build them like they used to", as ECM outclasses it. Again, I don't have any means to refute your statement other than the fact it makes little sense and I remember it differently. All I can find is http://www.sarna.net/, which does not support your statement. However, I hate to use that as a source.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 12 February 2013 - 10:00 AM.

[Kousagi]

StalaggtIKE, on 12 February 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

So, based on your statements, Null sig functions as ECM with the added benefit of hiding from thermal view. It just came with cons for ***** and giggles, I guess. Based on the time line it really exemplifies the statement, "they don't build them like they used to", as ECM outclasses it. Again, I don't have any means to refute your statement other than the fact it makes little sense and I remember it differently. All I can find is http://www.sarna.net/, which does not support your statement. However, I hate to use that as a source.

I'm not sure how this is hard for you to understand. The heat is coming from the heat sink baffles that are restricting the heat sinks from acting normally, which is part of the thermal masking system. I'll break down the rules for ya, when pertaining to each other.

Null sig:
gives a +3 to med range and +6 to long range attacks vs it while its active.
Double blind rules give it the hard to see on sensor rules.
+10 heat while active
Can't mount Advanced TC or C3
takes up 7 Criticals and weights 0.

Stealth armor
Gives +1 to med range and +2 to long range attacks vs it while its active
+10 heat while active
Requires ECM to even work
Can't mount Advanced TC or C3
Takes up 12 criticals and is counted as a armor type, so no other special armors can be used with it.

ECM
Double blind rules give it the hard to see by sensors rules
takes up 2 crits and weights 1.5 tons. ( Angel at 2 tons )

So in short Null sig > Stealth+ECM.

Edited by Kousagi, 12 February 2013 - 10:43 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Kousagi, on 12 February 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

ECM
Double blind rules give it the hard to see by sensors rules

Please, extrapolate here.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 12 February 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[Kousagi]

StalaggtIKE, on 12 February 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

Please, extrapolate here.

Here

Double blind rules from max tech, moved a few things around to fit it on one page, but its just dealing with sensors and ECM.

One thing taken out of context is "normal operating radius" which means on the same map. Some like to argue that point but the Guide to Solaris pretty much says the same thing.

[Codejack]

Kousagi, on 11 February 2013 - 09:02 PM, said:

Went over Tag with you before, you don't seem to understand so don't care.

TAG is a LASER; how does an electronic device interfere with a LASER?!

Kousagi, on 11 February 2013 - 09:02 PM, said:

You are right in that ECM does nothing to TT LRM's, but! LRM's got changed from TT to MWO. Different guidance systems, So naturally with MWO LRM's locking on, ( unlike TT ) ECM now kills them.

OK, so LRMs were made worse, so ECM now makes them even worse, again?


Welcome to ignore. That is just the absolute stupidest thing I have ever read, and feel bad that I wasted this much time on you.

At this point, I am simply convinced that you don't care about balance, canon, rules, or anything but you being invincible in a fast, light ECM mech, so there is no more point discussing anything with you,.