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Ammo Explosions


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#21 Cik

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 10:23 PM

View PostDeamhan, on 01 February 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

So wait, If I put a CASE in the LT and have an ammo explosion in the LA then the CASE will stop it from going to the CT?
What If I put a single CASE in the CT? Would that prevent ammo explosion damage from damaging the CT no matter which direction it comes from?

yes. if you put CASE in the CT then the extra damage that remains after it kills the CT will be negated. unfortunately you will still be dead.

Edited by Cik, 01 February 2013 - 10:23 PM.


#22 Deamhan

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 10:28 PM

View PostCik, on 01 February 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

yes. if you put CASE in the CT then the extra damage that remains after it kills the CT will be negated. unfortunately you will still be dead.


OK so if I put the Case in the LT and the ammo explosion is in the left arm then it can potentially destroy the arm, LT but the CASE prevents it from going to the CT.

#23 Cik

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 10:30 PM

View PostDeamhan, on 01 February 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:


OK so if I put the Case in the LT and the ammo explosion is in the left arm then it can potentially destroy the arm, LT but the CASE prevents it from going to the CT.

99% sure that is correct, yes. the explosion will mutilate you, but you will survive.

#24 Taurick

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 10:53 PM

Yep, CASE stops an explosion spreading from the CASEd component, not to the CASEd component

IE it is worthless in the CT or on XL engines

Edited by Taurich, 01 February 2013 - 10:53 PM.


#25 Konril

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:01 PM

View PostTw1stedMonkey, on 01 February 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Can anyone explain to me why an ammo explosion in the arm of an assault mech (AWESOME to be exact) can travel all the way to the CT and core it out with having ANY DAMAGE AT ALL to armor or internals to anything other than the armor that was blown off? Keep in mind I am asking this from a physics perspective as well.


Honestly, The Hit Point system is something made in the tabletop days to simplify the recording of "damage." Real armor does not work this way, and there are a few nods to that fact in the lore and official rules.

When a location's armor reaches zero, it doesn't mean the armor is completely gone, but simply compromised. It is still there, but no longer in good enough shape to reasonably stop incoming fire from getting through to the sensitive parts inside. If some of the ammo gets hit and cooks off as a result, that massive armor meant to keep the heat and kinetic force away from the sensitive structure of the mech does a spectacular job of keeping that heat and kinetic force inside the mech instead. Obviously, some of the explosion can go right out the holes in the armor made by the shots that compromised it to begin with. But unfortunately, the biggest hole, AKA the path of least resistance, is through the shoulder where the arm meets the torso. Therefore the explosion is not likely to be stopped until it goes through the center torso. Bye bye, engine!

CASE (Cellular Ammo Storage Equipment) is a modification that reinforces the compartment and puts a safety release on a section of the armor. So instead of the path of least resistance leading to the engine, it blows off the back armor. That means the mech is usually crippled instead of outright destroyed as that torso is still effectively gone. Technically, it is possible to modify an arm or a leg with CASE. However right now the means to do so has been lost to war. So until the eggheads figure out a way again, it is limited to the torso.

Does that make sense?

There is two good things about having the ammo in the arm instead of the torso. If the whole arm gets shot off before the ammo goes up, then that ammo just falls off the mech with the rest of the arm and is no longer any threat. Also, there is no "rear arm" location to worry about. Opponents can't blow out the arm faster by getting behind you unlike with torso locations that have separate front and rear armor.

#26 p00k

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:21 PM

besides that it's useless, can you even put case in CT? i thought it was one of those component restricted things

Edited by p00k, 01 February 2013 - 11:22 PM.


#27 Vaneshi SnowCrash

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:27 PM

View PostExoth3rmic, on 01 February 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

I would like to know if, when your ammo is depleted, and your ammo is reported later as "destroyed" (which does occur despite technically having 0 rounds left) whether its still causing dmg, despite no ammo being present.


I haven't experienced it since CB but I had a Catapult detonate from an ammo explosion with empty bins. Couldn't tell you if this was/is a bug and has/hasn't been fixed but yes, in MWO you can theoretically TKO yourself with empty ammo bins.

#28 Ursh

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:33 PM

From a physics perspective, explosions take the route of least resistance, the same as water or electricity.

An explosion in an arm could conceivably damage the exterior armor of a torso, but would be unlikely to do much to the interior of the torso. It's rather simple. The ammo would blow up the arm, it wouldn't magically route itself through the interior of the mech to blow out the center torso.

This is one of the things they could happily drop from tabletop and no one would mind. After all, if ammo explosions are so dangerous, why the f**k do they sell so many stock mechs that have uncased ammo in the torsos and arms?

#29 Taurick

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:45 PM

View PostUrsh, on 01 February 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

An explosion in an arm could conceivably damage the exterior armor of a torso, but would be unlikely to do much to the interior of the torso. It's rather simple. The ammo would blow up the arm, it wouldn't magically route itself through the interior of the mech to blow out the center torso.


It's not 'magically routing itself', as you said explosions follow the path of least resistance. The arm is still encased in structural panels and whatever armour still clinging to those panels. Path of least resistance for the explosion in this circumstance is out through the shoulder and into the side torso

#30 Ravennus

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:50 PM

Does CASE prevent Gauss Rifle explosion damage from spreading to the CT?

I've heard yes, and I've heard no. Trying to get some confirmation.

#31 Taron

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:07 AM

Never tried it, but by the name, a CASE should help on an AMMO explosion - and only there, where the ammo is. If you have CASE at center torso and your ammo at left torso explodes, CASE should be useless.

Gauss ammo can't explode, but the Gauss RIfle can, so a CASE should not help on this.

Edited by Taron, 02 February 2013 - 12:08 AM.


#32 Ravennus

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:25 AM

View PostTaron, on 02 February 2013 - 12:07 AM, said:

Never tried it, but by the name, a CASE should help on an AMMO explosion - and only there, where the ammo is. If you have CASE at center torso and your ammo at left torso explodes, CASE should be useless.

Gauss ammo can't explode, but the Gauss RIfle can, so a CASE should not help on this.


Yeah.... but you are applying logic to the mechanics of CASE based on the acronym description.

That's not necessarily how the game is coded. For example, they might have used the same system as ammo explosions to model the Gauss explosion... and because it uses the ammo explosion system, CASE actually applies.


Like I said, I've heard conjecture from both sides but nothing solid yet.
It's hard to categorically test in the current environment.

#33 Cik

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:46 AM

View PostUrsh, on 01 February 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

From a physics perspective, explosions take the route of least resistance, the same as water or electricity.

An explosion in an arm could conceivably damage the exterior armor of a torso, but would be unlikely to do much to the interior of the torso. It's rather simple. The ammo would blow up the arm, it wouldn't magically route itself through the interior of the mech to blow out the center torso.

This is one of the things they could happily drop from tabletop and no one would mind. After all, if ammo explosions are so dangerous, why the f**k do they sell so many stock mechs that have uncased ammo in the torsos and arms?

except you know, CASE was losttech for ages, so that would be why. if you don't know anything about battletech, why complain about how it works?

#34 Lycan

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 04:50 AM

View PostThontor, on 01 February 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

CASE stops any internal explosion (ammo or gauss) from transferring to the center torso


I either can't remember or just don't know if it was ever clarified.

Maybe you might know.

Does CASE only stop the damage from an ammo/gauss explosion if it originates from inside the CASEd location?

#35 Protoculture

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 04:51 AM

View PostCik, on 01 February 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

do you have an XL engine?


This. Also Thomas Reallylongmaybepolishlastname stated in a thread yesterday that you can only take damage from overheating if you use the override and the way it was worded made it sound like that could happen even before you hit 100% on Heat.

#36 Moromillas

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 04:51 AM

Just put the ammo in the legs.

When your legs blow up, you generally want the cockpit to blow up too.

#37 Spheroid

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 09:27 AM

Is the heat risk to ammo documented anywhere? I am mulling either moving the ammo around on my new 4SP to the head versus installing CASE.

#38 Tw1stedMonkey

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 07:27 PM

View PostKonril, on 01 February 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:


Honestly, The Hit Point system is something made in the tabletop days to simplify the recording of "damage." Real armor does not work this way, and there are a few nods to that fact in the lore and official rules.

When a location's armor reaches zero, it doesn't mean the armor is completely gone, but simply compromised. It is still there, but no longer in good enough shape to reasonably stop incoming fire from getting through to the sensitive parts inside. If some of the ammo gets hit and cooks off as a result, that massive armor meant to keep the heat and kinetic force away from the sensitive structure of the mech does a spectacular job of keeping that heat and kinetic force inside the mech instead. Obviously, some of the explosion can go right out the holes in the armor made by the shots that compromised it to begin with. But unfortunately, the biggest hole, AKA the path of least resistance, is through the shoulder where the arm meets the torso. Therefore the explosion is not likely to be stopped until it goes through the center torso. Bye bye, engine!

CASE (Cellular Ammo Storage Equipment) is a modification that reinforces the compartment and puts a safety release on a section of the armor. So instead of the path of least resistance leading to the engine, it blows off the back armor. That means the mech is usually crippled instead of outright destroyed as that torso is still effectively gone. Technically, it is possible to modify an arm or a leg with CASE. However right now the means to do so has been lost to war. So until the eggheads figure out a way again, it is limited to the torso.

Does that make sense?

There is two good things about having the ammo in the arm instead of the torso. If the whole arm gets shot off before the ammo goes up, then that ammo just falls off the mech with the rest of the arm and is no longer any threat. Also, there is no "rear arm" location to worry about. Opponents can't blow out the arm faster by getting behind you unlike with torso locations that have separate front and rear armor.


Yes some damage would likely go to the torso, but there is no way ALL damage would transfer 100% in a snaking pattern through to the engine. It needs to be reduced by a fairly signifcant factor (like dealing 50-75% of remain ammo damage to account for energy lost due in the arm exploding and flying off the mech or lost to air) and also it should do fairly "compromising" damage to the exterior armor of a section before traveling further unless the chest is just an empty shipping crate with no sectioning off between center and adjacent torsos. Given that mechs have a fairly durable internal system (like greater than 50-70% of the exterior "armor points" done directly to the internals to render a section completely destroyed.

Additionally, ammo explosions in the RT and LT that do enough to destroy the section should lose a fairly significant force out the gaping hole in the side of the mech where the arm used to be attached.

While I do not have a heavy physics background, nor do I know much about battletech lore, I do have an engineering background and given what I do know I feel like it should work at least a little different. I think something like this:
For arms: it does the full damage to the arm internals, 50-35% of what bleeds over from that does damage to the internals of the R/L torso, 25-40% goes to the R/L torso exterior armor, subtotaling 75% here, and the last 25% is lost to the air/arm flying off the mech.
For R/L torso: 60-75% of what bleeds over from the torso destruction is applied to the CT internals with possibly a small portion of that applied to CT armor.
For legs, it would be similar to arms but they really should bleed over damage directly to CT not R/L torso... also possibly a tiny amount damage adjacent leg exterior armor.

Wouldn't that be fairly easy to implement and make more sense than current mechanics? Heck, just a flat 75% damage modifier to ammo explosions using current mechanics to account for energy loss would be alright, and extremely easy to implement.

Edited by Tw1stedMonkey, 03 February 2013 - 07:29 PM.


#39 Tw1stedMonkey

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 01:20 PM

I was informed by a friend that there *is* a damage reduction in explosions moving from one component to another currently. I believed they said it did 25% less each time it goes to a new component. If this is true then I guess this post was not needed, Can anyone else confirm this?
I was also informed the ammo depletes from right side of the mech to left side starting with right arm currently (though the plan is eventually to use the ammo closest to the weapon first and move from there). Seeing as every time i can think of having this happen the explosion started from the left arm, I will need to move it to the right arm (before you say anything the legs and head are already full of ammo) Does anyone know for sure how it works?

#40 Vininator

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 01:48 PM

From a realistic physics point of view:

Your ammo was hit. It caught on fire. Rounds started going off and one of them happened to launch on a trajectory that sent it bouncing around under your armor.
It passed harmlessly through your side torso, missing all vital internals, before impacting on your engine and detonating.

Happy to contribute nothing to this discussion! Peace!





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