284 replies to this topic

[BaronofBeanDip]

Exactly, was just in a match, and I spotted a streakcat behind some buildings, waiting for us to come close. I pointed him out, and sniped one of the pods(with ML's). He ran around a bit, and got in close, but because we were sticking together, and we all knew he was around, we quickly shot the other pod off, and he was completely harmless.

[Crawford]

I'd hardly call it an "abusive" build...poor choice of words.

SRM boating may arguably be overpowered, but only in close range. Yes it sucks to turn a corner, bump into one and get your arm taken off instantly. Players will always flock to the most powerful combinations, that's the main reason I came to the forums - to look up and discuss builds.

and no I don't have an SRM cat, the variation I have is a K2 with gauss and ML's. Which is far from unbeatable...in fact the XL engine required to go a decent speed makes them pretty delicate. Not to mention trying to hit lights with ballistics.

[Chrithu]

The Dual AC/20 Cat usually is quite slow. Either pick them off at a distance (if possible) or let your lights try to get them from behind. Which of course is hard to do in a PUG/Solo Match.

I have no experience with premades, but my guess is for a premade team the AC/20 Cat and Splattercat aren't that big of a deal as they inform each other about their presence and then can act accordingly.

And as mcuh as some might hate that: That situation should be the one that is balanced. And I think it is. So while I agree that those are quite powerful builds they have their weaknesses, that when known and exploited reduce their harm even below that of other regular builds.

[Indoorsman]

CECILOFS, on 02 February 2013 - 03:05 AM, said:

So then it comes down to who is the better team and who is the better pilot. If they can get themselves unharmed into your back arc without you noticing, they are doing something right.

Or they are paired with an ECM Atlas...and I will fully admit that ECM gives a massive advantage to mechs like this and think that it should be changed.

Anecdotally, I am an average pilot and I generally don't do very well with the SRM6 A1. Some games I can get 3 kills or so, but usually I get owned before getting into range, or surprise 1 person and then get horribly owned by their friends.I can sometimes get lucky and take out a light, but usually lights can just plink away with immunity till they take off my ears.

Seriously, just try it, you will see that there are massive drawbacks that balance it out, just like any mech or weapon:

- can't take jumpjets (not enough weight/slots)
- has a range of ~150m
- can only fit max of around 6t of ammo - enough for 16-17 shots
- attrocious heat efficiency
- XL engine
- exploding ammo
- 100% of weapons in the arms, which are massive targets
- dumbfire weapons with slow travel time = hard to hit fast/small targets

Actually what I was saying was that of 2 equally capable pilots, the SRM Cat pilot would win.

I have an A1 with 6xSRM6 and
- has 3/4 jumpjets
- 7t ammo
- good enough heat efficiency to waste multiple targets
- dumbfire is a good thing

yes it has an XL engine, exploding ammo, and a range that is a very common range to engage people at

arms aren't all bad, can aim up hill or with jumpjets lets you aim down at the ground

[MasterBLB]

Indoorsman, on 02 February 2013 - 04:25 AM, said:

Actually what I was saying was that of 2 equally capablepilots, the SRM Cat pilot would win.

I'd say a capable pilot won't allow himself to be lured into an unfavorable fight.

[Helvetica]

Meh i run a SRMcat with 4SRM 6 with Arts - the grouping to core mechs is much more ammo efficient, Added to this SRM cats, Gauss,ac20 and LOLcats are all fairly slow creatures.

Only the SRM cat is reasonably mobile with the others using hull mounted weapons use elevated positions to gimp them (they also are usually armour light) as they have trouble aiming up at medium to close ranges... Which is another reason i run a XL 300 in my SRM cat for that 85kph as if they hit you your toast anyway.

So thats my counter cat - 4xSRM6+arts/300XL/Max armour/4 JJs

[1453 R]

The game's still in beta; now's the time to bring up concerns with abusive 'Mechs.

I agree that the A1 is a little ridiculous - if I were PGI I would've given it four missile hardpoints and tossed back a couple of the lasers from the C1 myself - but as has been stated, the seriously crazy boat 'Mechs typically have to pay for their overabundance of weapons somewhere. In the case of the Splattercat, it often seems to be speed and agility. I actually engaged more than one of the things yesterday when I was rolling around in my Flame, and even without the giant engine I'm saving for in that thing I managed to stay clear of enough of the missiles to, at least, live long enough to get back to my teammates.

(And in one case, to pop the Splattercat right in the dome when all the rest of his armor was either yellow or just barely orange. Take that, you silly English knigget! Nice, juicy salvage bonus for me XP)

But anyways. Boat 'Mechs have been a problem in every single MechWarrior game to date - someone is always going to try and load up as many of their favorite 'Mech-killer as possible and go for the massive alpha. You can't really stop them when they don't care about staying alive or accomplishing a military goal on the battlefield, as canonical BattleTech pilots have to. That's not their objective, and you can't make it their objective, either. All you can do as a developer is try to monitor 'Mechs with boating-friendly hardpoints and adjust those hardpoints later on if it turns out that a given 'Mech is really causing problems.

I don't think either the A1 or the K2 are that bad yet. Dangerous, yes, but with enough drawbacks and balancing factors that I'm willing to let people have them. On the whole, I'd rather see what PGI's going to do with ECM, Beagle probes, and other extremely over/under-powered equipment than have them fiddle with Catapults at the moment.

Edited by 1453 R, 02 February 2013 - 05:13 AM.

[Kharim]

There is nothing OP nor abusive in those builds. If you ask me, they are extremally specialised.

For 4 man premade, just primary such target and suddenly puff! and nothing more than pile of ash and trail of smoke is left of them.
When PUGing use the range for your advantage, because there is nothing better that twin gauss rifle shot to the cockpit! Those mechs fire efectively on 270 meters! Yeah ac20 projectile goes further but still damage goes down after 270 meters.

If you are a close range mech then You have to shoot certain parts of those mechs. For hexasrmpults shoot the launchers- those big rectangular boxes they carry on sides, with ac20k2 take of its leg (they tend to have litle armour there) and watch it being killed from a distance while they limp around the battlefield.
You can't aim for specific part of mechs? Too bad for You. Get used to being just a meat for the grinder. It is not hard to hit something into desired location, especially if you have your free targeting computer that is by default installed in your mech.

Before You say anything about ECM being to powerfull. Learn to direct fire without use of your targeting computer. Even LRMs can do that and still hit things. ECM is good as it is.

Edited by Kharim, 02 February 2013 - 05:24 AM.

[1453 R]

Kharim? Game's in beta - we're supposed to be bringing up balance concerns, bugs, and anything else we think of as a problem. This is not the time to be telling folks to man up and tough it out.

And no, ECM is not okay. It cuts the active sensor ranges of enemy BattleMechs by eighty percent, against you and everything within two hundred meters of you. That ability is extremely powerful all on its lonesome; I don't understand why PGI added almost complete immunity to guided missiles to a system that, canonically, never had it and which, additionally, didn't need it. I'm all for making compromises with TT rules where they interfere with gameplay - this isn't tabletop, this is MWO, and if you can't reconcile yourself to that you might want to not play the game - but in this instance there was no reason to turn ECM into this bizarre, all-powerful screwjob it currently is. Were LRM boats that bad before I got here? @_@

Addendum: firing LRMs without lock is a tactic for very specific situations or desperation. Doing so when not in either of those circumstances is a waste of perfectly good missiles and should be considered a crime against humanity.

Edited by 1453 R, 02 February 2013 - 05:33 AM.

[apostateCourier]

1453 R, on 02 February 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Kharim? Game's in beta - we're supposed to be bringing up balance concerns, bugs, and anything else we think of as a problem. This is not the time to be telling folks to man up and tough it out.

And no, ECM is not okay. It cuts the active sensor ranges of enemy BattleMechs by eighty percent, against you and everything within two hundred meters of you. That ability is extremely powerful all on its lonesome; I don't understand why PGI added almost complete immunity to guided missiles to a system that, canonically, never had it and which, additionally, didn't need it. I'm all for making compromises with TT rules where they interfere with gameplay - this isn't tabletop, this is MWO, and if you can't reconcile yourself to that you might want to not play the game - but in this instance there was no reason to turn ECM into this bizarre, all-powerful screwjob it currently is. Were LRM boats that bad before I got here? @_@

Addendum: firing LRMs without lock is a tactic for very specific situations or desperation. Doing so when not in either of those circumstances is a waste of perfectly good missiles and should be considered a crime against humanity.

Yes, the LRM spam was that bad.

[Kharim]

Yeah LRMs were a pain in the ***. But still even when ECM works, LRM can fire directly. My wish about ECM is to enable ssrm's to fire like normal srm's when affected by ECM.

I have a specific anti-whiner attitude, but still it is my firm belief that SRM and ac20 Catapults need no balancing. They are high risk high reward builds, very deadly in hands of a skilled player. Still not everybody piloting those battlemechs will be a king of a battlefield, because there are easy ways to counter those builds.

Edited by Kharim, 02 February 2013 - 05:38 AM.

[Wrenchfarm]

ITT: Catapult pilots defending their OP rides, just like the RVN-3L pilots before them.

The AC40 cat and the SRMCat are so obviously broken I have to laugh. When you try to defend them by saying "b-b-but the cockpit is big!" or "shoot the ears!" (which will do exactly nothing to the AC20Cat...) I have to laugh harder.

There are easy fixes for the the Cat though. A lower maximum engine rating for the A1 would restrict it's mobility. It would take actual skill to position and maneuver into close range if you weren't able to sprint up at 85KPH+. Not only would a lower top speed take the edge off the SRMCat and make it a reasonable - if specialized - build, it would make sense cannon wise with the A1's role as a primary LRM support platform. No need to sprint there.

The K2 would be much more reasonable with a limited torso twist. The "just get behind it" defence would make more sense if it couldn't just track a target directly behind itself. The huge problem with the AC20 isn't just its massive unbalanced Alpha strike (although that is pretty ****), its the fact that even as a light mech you have very little chance of getting around one without being gutted.

There, two simple fixes that would bring the Catapult's more galling builds down to a reasonable power level. Feel free to ignore them and yell at me to L2P.

I'll be laughing the hardest when the Cat receives it's inevitable nerfing and all you crutch pilots are left sulking, just like the post-lagshield Ravens.

Edited by Wrenchfarm, 02 February 2013 - 05:46 AM.

[Kharim]

FYI: I don't pilot or own any Catapult and still I am not against this build

[apostateCourier]

Wrenchfarm, on 02 February 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

ITT: Catapult pilots defending their OP rides, just like the RVN-3L pilots before them.

The AC40 cat and the SRMCat are so obviously broken I have to laugh. When you try to defend them by saying "b-b-but the cockpit is big!" or "shoot the ears!" (which will do exactly nothing to the AC20Cat...) I have to laugh harder.

There are easy fixes for the the Cat though. A lower maximum engine rating for the A1 would restrict it's mobility. It would take actual skill to position and maneuver into close range if you weren't able to sprint up at 85KPH+. Not only would a lower top speed take the edge off the SRMCat and make it a reasonable - if specialized - build, it would make sense cannon wise with the A1's role as a primary LRM support platform. No need to sprint there.

The K2 would be much more reasonable with a limited torso twist. The "just get behind it" defence would be a lot more palatable if it couldn't just track a target directly behind itself. The huge problem with the AC20 isn't just its massive unbalanced Alpha strike (although that is pretty ****), its the fact that even as a light mech you have very little chance of getting around one without being gutted.

There, two simple fixes that would bring the Catapult's more galling builds down to a reasonable power level. Feel free to ignore them and yell at me to L2P.

I'll be laughing the hardest when the Cat receives it's inevitable nerfing and all you crutch pilots are left sulking, just like the post-lagshield Ravens.

I pilot a Raven 3L and I do just fine, thank you very much. I've actually been doing better in the post lag-shield era. Splattercats aren't that difficult to deal with whether by range or boxing their ears, and AC/20cats can be outranged/outmaneuvered. It's still hard to hit a target moving at 130+ km/h that isn't moving in a straight line with ballistics, and to fit both AC/20s they need to sacrifice either armor, speed, or a combination of the two. There ARE tradeoffs for these kinds of machines.

[Wrenchfarm]

apostateCourier, on 02 February 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

I pilot a Raven 3L and I do just fine, thank you very much. I've actually been doing better in the post lag-shield era. Splattercats aren't that difficult to deal with whether by range or boxing their ears, and AC/20cats can be outranged/outmaneuvered. It's still hard to hit a target moving at 130+ km/h that isn't moving in a straight line with ballistics, and to fit both AC/20s they need to sacrifice either armor, speed, or a combination of the two. There ARE tradeoffs for these kinds of machines.

"I'm ignoring your points and telling you to L2P"

The prophecy has been fulfilled.

[Craftyman]

apostateCourier, on 02 February 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

I pilot a Raven 3L and I do just fine, thank you very much. I've actually been doing better in the post lag-shield era. Splattercats aren't that difficult to deal with whether by range or boxing their ears, and AC/20cats can be outranged/outmaneuvered. It's still hard to hit a target moving at 130+ km/h that isn't moving in a straight line with ballistics, and to fit both AC/20s they need to sacrifice either armor, speed, or a combination of the two. There ARE tradeoffs for these kinds of machines.

Absolute BS and anecdotal "evidence". The AC/20 cat and SRM6 cats are BROKEN beyond all belief and I will be riding this OP train until they are nerfed.

[1453 R]

Catapults are designed as concentrated weapons platforms. Admittedly, those weapons are usually LRMs, and also admittedly Catapults, canonically, aren't generally supposed to have ten million C-bills of upgrades turning them into Hellcats. A lot of the problems PGI's finding in this game seems to be that it has to balance not just the basic stock configurations, but also the configurations possible when someone gives a machine every single possible upgrade it can get in an afternoon, whereas a TT MechWarrior would have to be playing for a year to earn the scratch and the raw ability to pilot one of those crazy super-tuned machines. Provided he didn't die first.

Makes for an interesting conundrum for poor Piranha, when necessary balance issues get blocked because of lore mandates. Poor guys.

[Craftyman]

1453 R, on 02 February 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

Catapults are designed as concentrated weapons platforms. Admittedly, those weapons are usually LRMs, and also admittedly Catapults, canonically, aren't generally supposed to have ten million C-bills of upgrades turning them into Hellcats. A lot of the problems PGI's finding in this game seems to be that it has to balance not just the basic stock configurations, but also the configurations possible when someone gives a machine every single possible upgrade it can get in an afternoon, whereas a TT MechWarrior would have to be playing for a year to earn the scratch and the raw ability to pilot one of those crazy super-tuned machines. Provided he didn't die first.

Makes for an interesting conundrum for poor Piranha, when necessary balance issues get blocked because of lore mandates. Poor guys.

they NEED sized hardpoint, you should not be able to put an AC/20 in machine gun mounts.

[Goldsan]

CECILOFS, on 02 February 2013 - 03:05 AM, said:

- can't take jumpjets (not enough weight/slots)
- has a range of ~150m
- can only fit max of around 6t of ammo - enough for 16-17 shots
- attrocious heat efficiency
- XL engine
- exploding ammo
- 100% of weapons in the arms, which are massive targets
- dumbfire weapons with slow travel time = hard to hit fast/small targets

I have an SRM cat in addition to a k2 and c1

-jump jets are trash anyway, but you could push them in there if you want
-Not that big of a deal when you're going faster than most mediums
-I load 8 tons of ammo with an AMS + 1 ton of ammo with full armor and an XL 300 (I also have some tonnage leftover)
-1.5 is not exactly attrocious
-The catapults profile is extremely forgiving for XL use
-You can keep 4 tons of ammo in your legs without problem, you basically also get cockpit and chest ammo without risk simply because of how fast you blow through it (it gets drawn from your head and cockpit first)
-Yes
-Hard but far from impossible

[1453 R]

It's an interesting idea, but it'd also start being very difficult to make a 'Mech into anything but an XL/endo version of its default configuration. Part of the attraction of MWO is being able to take the base chassis and put your own spin on it, make it yours. If hardpoints were sized and the sizes were too restrictive - easy to do - then you'd basically have no option for any given hardpoint except what comes in that hardpoint by default.

I agree - AC20s and Gauss rifles don't really belong in MG mounts, but what counts as "Small Ballistic" to you? AC5 and down? AC2 and down? Just machine guns? What are you willing to let the Cat players have towards the goal of being able to freely customize their 'Mechs?