284 replies to this topic

[BaronofBeanDip]

When I die to a SRM anything, usually my concern is "where did my team go?", not rage at the SRM's. I run into SRM builds a lot, literally, because all I have atm are ML's and MPL's, so I dont have a lot of room to work with, but usually they still aren't that big of an issue, because I call them out to my team, and I then start backpedaling to keep my range as long as possible.

The only map where it's a difficult problem to deal with is river city, when you get caught up in the urban areas. THAT is a hard place to deal with SRM boats. That's why it's imporant to try to find the enemy before you enter heavy cover areas, so you dont get taken by surprise.

But remember, you can always end up against a sneaky SRM boat. But that's not a balance issue, that's just the other guy playing well. Or not well, since that usually means they're alone.

Uh, tl:dr; SRM boats can be countered by battlefield awareness, communication, and distance.

[Shade4x]

slayerkdm, on 01 February 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

The Srm build is tough if you get hit by it, so is the AC20 build. But neither of them make me cringe too much. I cringe over getting LRMed to death without ever seeing the enemy. Those two Cat builds I get to see before they get to try and kill me. Sure they do, they are killers, but you can beat them. I like the Srm least, as I think it may be a touch OP. The AC20 build, well, while I havent piloted one, I know AC20's are not that easy to use effectively. Sure they hit like a truck, but its not like you just point in a general direction and say I win. I dont pilot Cats, so I have no dog in the fight. Actually, I can of like them, as it is a challenge fighting them with my Dragon. Any of what I consider my good mechs can fight them and have a chance to win, my 4sp, 4p, Illya or my 1n all can fight them. That doesnt mean I would always win, or maybe even break even, but I have a good chance. Im not sure any build in the game really bothers me at the moment. Though Im sure someone will find one that does.

Dear Genuis,

Learn to stay 250 meters from a1 pults. Learn not to hug dual ac/20 pults. The end.

P.S. Just because you have crappy builds, instead of telling everyone else not to play these builds, learn to build your mech better, and learn to counter there mech's.

[Dirus Nigh]

The catapult, raven, commando, or any other mech chassis (or variant) themselves are not OP, abusive or an exploitative mech.

Using an item or combination of items in a game legitimately is not exploitative or abusive. Using ECM, streaks or both is not an exploit.

An exploit is using a known bugged item, or glitch in a game to gain an advantage over the game or other players. An advantage that is not readily available or easily duplicated by the majority of players. Any chassis in the game is equally available to all players. As are weapons and equipment. All such weapons and equipment are functioning correctly in game. Non of them have a unknown, or unwanted effect, by the devs, when used in a certain way or combined in certain items.

A catapult with two AC20s can be built by any one. It can also be countered with average understanding of tactics, the weapons involved and the chassis. The same goes for cataphracts with two gauss rifles, 4 AC2/5s, or UAC5s. Catapults with 6 srms, LRMs, 4 large lasers, or any other mech with a devastating load out. These load outs have limitations. Learn them and use that understanding to counter them.

However equipment in the game is unbalanced. ECM and streaks are unbalanced by themselves. When combined on a mech they become over powered. This is a game balance issue.

[Hex Pallett]

Shade4x, on 02 February 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

Dear Genuis,

Learn to stay 250 meters from a1 pults. Learn not to hug dual ac/20 pults. The end.

P.S. Just because you have crappy builds, instead of telling everyone else not to play these builds, learn to build your mech better, and learn to counter there mech's.

Okay here we go. SRMpults would usually push along the pack and creep in urban area, then jumps out and slap all over your face. An A1 with 6x Artemis SRM6 could easily pack in a XL300, bring the tweaked speed up to 80+ km/h, which is PRETTY DAMN HARD TO OUTRUN.

Edited by Helmstif, 02 February 2013 - 02:12 PM.

[Merrik Starchaser]

Stringburka, on 02 February 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

They're not brawlers as much as assassins - 65 ton assassins - that rely on stealth or confusion to get to you when you're at your weakest and BAM you're dead.

Hmm that is well well put, I do Play my A1 exactly like a rogue in many MMO's.

Also the reason the Gauss cat was bad wasnt that is was an ac/20 cat from a click away, it was that even when you closed it was just as deadly or more. The fragility of the Gauss did its job, although I think a little too well, in that you really try to keep range with them.

Edited by Merrik Starchaser, 02 February 2013 - 07:55 PM.

[Escef]

Why are almost all of the A1 Catapults boating SRM6? Well, ECM and unreliable teams make LRMs almost pointless. ECM makes Streaks pointless. What's left? Seriously, what do you expect?

AC20 Cats? Just maintain range. Yes, they do scary damage. Either stay away or swarm them. Gauss Cats? Keep moving, don't let them get a solid shot on you.

Don't like how far a Catapult's torso can twist? Have you piloted a Cat? Your arms have virtually no ability to turn, without that extreme torso twist you'd be boned by anything that attempted to flank you. Also, your torso guns have very little ability to target up or down hill. I run 2 large lasers and two AC5s on my K2 'pult. I put the lasers in the arms because if I didn't I'd be unable to shoot at enemies that were too close to me in hilly terrain. Have you also ever noticed how often Cats die to cockpit damage? Quite a lot, it has one of the biggest cockpit hit zones in the game.

I've also noticed that the 'pult draws the most fire over this. The reason why you see these builds on the 'pult is because it is just the right combination of weight, price, and hard points to pull it off. No one seems to complain about Dragons or Cataphracts boating large lasers. Or 'phracts with twin gauss.

[TankHamsta]

1) A1 has no choice but to be uber missile boats. It only has missile hardpoints.
2) It also makes it extremely easy to tell right off the bat what kind of build any A1 is. If it isn't shooting LRMs, obviously it be SRMs (or possibly streaks) but either way, you will know instantly what to do against it.

As such,
A) If it be an LRM boat, it lacks tag. Either use ECM or send lights to poke it to death. (Or simply get in 180 meters and laugh.)

B: SRM/SSRM boat, LRM/ranged weapons. Nearly ever match me see has someone with an AC or something (gauss/ppc/etc)
Lopping off even a single ear makes it about as weak as the medium mech (or even weaker).

C) If it be a hybrid with a mix, laugh because unless it be at roughly 180-220 meters, half it's weapon or so will be useless.

D) If it be a SRM catapult, it likely be using an XL engine Just blow out a side torso. And aye, they be decently easy enough to hit.

And finally, weakness of all catapults: Huge head hitbox.

Edited by TankHamsta, 02 February 2013 - 08:44 PM.

[Tavias]

The dual ac20 cat I don't have an issue with. As far as I'm concerned, that's a legit build. It's powerful at close range, but they're slow. They also at least have to aim.

SRM6 cats I find to be terribly annoying and abusive though. They are limited in range, yes, but they're deadly in close quarters. Part of what annoys me is the absolutely noobtastic tactics they employ. Running up at full speed into a mech and clicking fire in no way even closely resembles skill, but they're rewarded with easy kills against heavies and assaults.

The abusive part I find much more difficult to tolerate. The standard tactic is to run full speed into another mech and fire. This is taking advantage of the fact that there are no collisions right now, which is total cheese. Then after they've done that, the fact that they're humping your mech causes a lot of rubber banding as you try and untangle, giving them the opportunity for another shot or two before you can break free. Honestly if it weren't for those issues, I don't think I'd have a problem with them.

[Escef]

Tavias, on 02 February 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

The dual ac20 cat I don't have an issue with. As far as I'm concerned, that's a legit build. It's powerful at close range, but they're slow. They also at least have to aim.

SRM6 cats I find to be terribly annoying and abusive though. They are limited in range, yes, but they're deadly in close quarters. Part of what annoys me is the absolutely noobtastic tactics they employ. Running up at full speed into a mech and clicking fire in no way even closely resembles skill, but they're rewarded with easy kills against heavies and assaults.

The abusive part I find much more difficult to tolerate. The standard tactic is to run full speed into another mech and fire. This is taking advantage of the fact that there are no collisions right now, which is total cheese. Then after they've done that, the fact that they're humping your mech causes a lot of rubber banding as you try and untangle, giving them the opportunity for another shot or two before you can break free. Honestly if it weren't for those issues, I don't think I'd have a problem with them.

Wait... So, the AC20 cat is fine, but the nearly identical in usage, and easier to neuter, SRMcat you have a problem with? WTF?

Also, I've run an SRMcat plenty of times. Anyone calling it an easy path to victory has obviously never used one. I'm not calling it a skill intensive build or anything, but it's very easy to get yourself killed in one. Often enough, killed in a way that is just as comical as some of the exaggerations of the mech's performance.

[PhoenixFire55]

Kharim, on 02 February 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Please do not bring Mechwarrior 4 back to life... I think that current critical+hardpoint system is really lore-freindly and I wouldn't exchange it for anything else.

Not MW4, they need to keep the amount of weapons you can put into each hardpoint, but change hardpoint size. Say, K2 has 2 ballistic hardpoints of size-1. Which means only one MG or one AC2 can go in each. Say Atlas has 1 ballistic hardpoint of the size 8. Means you can fit any ballistic weapon in there, but just one.

[PhoenixFire55]

Helmstif, on 02 February 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Okay here we go. SRMpults would usually push along the pack and creep in urban area, then jumps out and slap all over your face. An A1 with 6x Artemis SRM6 could easily pack in a XL300, bring the tweaked speed up to 80+ km/h, which is PRETTY DAMN HARD TO OUTRUN.

Its a problem of ECM being stupidly implemented. If you had scouts that actually transferred info about enemy postion, you'd know that here and there are SRM Cats you need to stay away from. Scouts can outrun them SRM Cats easy enough. But with ECM your scouts see nothing and transfer no targeting info, and even if you have ECM scouts on your side they can't transfer targets just as well being in disrupt.

[CECILOFS]

Indoorsman, on 02 February 2013 - 04:25 AM, said:

Actually what I was saying was that of 2 equally capable pilots, the SRM Cat pilot would win.

I have an A1 with 6xSRM6 and
- has 3/4 jumpjets
- 7t ammo
- good enough heat efficiency to waste multiple targets
- dumbfire is a good thing

If everything is equal and 1 mech outranges the Catapult, then they should be able to kill them at range. If it can get close without you seeing it, then everything wasn't even and they either used team synergy (ECM) against you, or had better cover use, positioning and manouvreing.

In a 1v1 stand and shoot brawl at 150m, yes the Catapult will beat most mechs. But that's dumb and you shouldn't stand still and trade blows with the enemy.

I am interested to see your build. Basically the point I was making is that the SRM-6 Cat has to make sacrifices (like any other mech) to fit everything on. You can't have 4/4 JJ, max armour, 315XL and 10 tons of ammo for example.

I'm not gonna cry if they nerf the A1 but people need to keep in mind that its a 1 trick pony which has to make sacrifices to do what it does and has extreme weaknesses which can be exploited.

P.S. I rarely run the 6 SRM Cat as I don't do well with it. My favourite A1 build is 2xLRM15 + 4xStreak, because my ping is terrible and I like guided missiles. ECM makes that build 100% pointless, much like the 6xSSRM cat, but nobody is crying about those builds anymore

Edited by CECILOFS, 03 February 2013 - 03:28 AM.

[Stringburka]

Escef, on 02 February 2013 - 10:34 PM, said:

Wait... So, the AC20 cat is fine, but the nearly identical in usage, and easier to neuter, SRMcat you have a problem with? WTF?

Which is easier to neuter depends on your build. SRM cats can be faaaar quicker, since they're not forced to use a standard engine. An AC-20 Kat with 14 shots only, and reduced armor, will have a speed of 72 after speed tweak - and that's with about 40 leg armor, and no other weapons at all.
CPLT-K2

Meanwhile, a streak cat with 19 shots, maxed armor and two jump jets can have a speed of 86 after speed tweak. And as said, that's with maxed armor.
CPLT-A1

So I think for pinpoint accuracy shots, with UACs, PPC's, Gausses et cetera, the streak cat is easier to take down. For those with weapons that might not hit as exactly, like LRM's, SSRMs (if you're a light and try to outmaneuver it), large lasers and similar, the AC-20 will be easier to take down. The difference is extra large if your speed is 80-90 somewhere where you can outrun the AC-20 much easier than the streak.

[Wittyname Terribad]

The build is not any more difficult to deal with than any other boat; gausspult/gausphract,3 uac5 Ilya, ac20 cat, 6ppc stalker, ll dragon/pult/stalker/whatever, Lrm boats. It has weaknesses. Shoot the ears, leg it, or just dump fire into its torso until it falls over.

I don't play a boat a1, but I do have a c4 with 4x srm6 2x ml and a 300xl. I know that it is a powerful build, but will go down quick if I don't still employ patience and maintain situational awareness. The best matches I have are mainly against opponents who either blindly charge in or who try to hide solo. Had a match this morning in alpine valley with 4 kills, where only 1 even saw me coming; the others were too busy standing at waters edge boating lrms, each isolated in his own little hideyhole that just became a death trap. The outcome would have been the same had I been piloting my uac5/ml k2, or my 4sp, or even my 9flamer 4p. Every boat has a weakness, you just have to identify what's what and play smart

[Indoorsman]

I made a video of an abusive build because of the naysayers:

[Shade4x]

Helmstif, on 02 February 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Okay here we go. SRMpults would usually push along the pack and creep in urban area, then jumps out and slap all over your face. An A1 with 6x Artemis SRM6 could easily pack in a XL300, bring the tweaked speed up to 80+ km/h, which is PRETTY DAMN HARD TO OUTRUN.

Thats why you focus fire the high dps targets first. There are a ton of builds that go 80 kph, and have equal dps. heck a triple uac/5 muromets goes 80 kph and has more armor and better hit boxes.

Look, i hate to say learn 2 play. Here is what i do, and i've never had a problem with a1's. Watch the enemy group. If you see a catapult, start getting distance. also switch off whatever target you are facing, and kill it, reguardless of it targeting you. Oh and fit AMS into your build. AMS at 150 meters stops a good amount of the SRM's. If you see an ear thats weak, focus on that, other wise focus on the CT. A1's are useless at 300 meters, if you cannot recoginize a mech and target it before its 300 meters from you.... Well at that point you need to seriously work on batlefield awareness.

[Indoorsman]

Shade4x, on 03 February 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

There are a ton of builds that go 80 kph, and have equal dps. heck a triple uac/5 muromets goes 80 kph and has more armor and better hit boxes.

An A1 with 6 SRM6 has the best direct fire/dumb fire alpha in the game with great speed and maneuverability. In 4 seconds the 6 SRM6 cat can deal 180 damage... or 45 DPS. In 4 seconds a Muromets will have a jam, or if single firing not even be able to compare damage to a splat cat. Also a Muromets hitboxes are terrible for XL engines.

[Vechs]

Wait wait wait... AC20 cats are a thing now?

Like, seriously? With the standard engine and subpar armor and... really?

:/

[MasterBLB]

Indoorsman, on 03 February 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

An A1 with 6 SRM6 has the best direct fire/dumb fire alpha in the game with great speed and maneuverability. In 4 seconds the 6 SRM6 cat can deal 180 damage... or 45 DPS. In 4 seconds a Muromets will have a jam, or if single firing not even be able to compare damage to a splat cat. Also a Muromets hitboxes are terrible for XL engines.

Also it has either serious heat issues,or has limited amount of ammo,or has to come around ~100m,as SRM6 spread too much beyond that range.I have A1 cat,tried that build few times and find is rather poor.But maybe I didn't find the right combination of heatsinks,engine,armor and ammunition yet.
I fought many hexasrm6 cats and if I lost it was because I didn't do the right thing,not because these cats are overpowered.

[Esperys]

Indoorsman, on 03 February 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

I made a video of an abusive build because of the naysayers:

I'm sure no other mech in the game has any highlight reels out there where someone is showing off their kill shots and cutting out all their failures. That is definitely hands down proof!