284 replies to this topic

[Wrenchfarm]

So I made one of these beasts. Partly because I wanted to be honest and fully informed, see just how demanding and effort intensive the SRMCat really is.

Mostly because I wanted to stick it in people's faces.

Here are the results of my very first ride in it!

- Names blurred to protect the innocent

This result was typical, scarily so. I seemed to hit around 800 damage a match just about every win. Games where my team got stomped I still did around 400-600. This was me PuGing it up with randoms. I would hate to see what I could do in a 4 man.

Aiming SRMs is not hard. Protecting your cockpit is not hard. Sneaking up on people is not hard. The short range isn't much of a problem, maps are tiny and crowded. The arm boxes will get shot occasionally, usually by the time I'd lose one I'd have already killed or crippled multiple mechs on their side - not that bad a trade.

I'm sorry people don't want to hear their favourite ride is OP. I know you would probably like to attribute your high damage and kills to your skill and ability. Sorry, but that just isn't the case. What we have here is a mech that provides a surplus of success for a minimum of effort.

The A1 is a problematic mech. It can only mount missiles and with the state of ECM, streaks and LRMs are unreliable. But 6 SRM packs on a chassis that can move and brawl like the Cat is way too much power in one package (my strategy for killing Atlai has been to walk up to them and press M1 a few times).

Thankfully, there is an easy way to bring the A1 down to a balanced level without completely overhauling the mech or SRMs. Lower the max engine size to 260, limit torso twist to 900-100 degrees. Boom, done. It can't flank/pursue nearly as bad, it can't lol-track mechs in a brawl. IE, it actually has weaknesses.

[Escef]

Wrenchfarm, on 03 February 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

I'm sorry people don't want to hear their favourite ride is OP. I know you would probably like to attribute your high damage and kills to your skill and ability. Sorry, but that just isn't the case. What we have here is a mech that provides a surplus of success for a minimum of effort.

Except none of those apply to me. I seriously do not like piloting the SRMcat. It is one of the most uninteresting mechs there is. I do not get lots of kills in it. (Though in games where I am not the subject of focused fire I do tend to rack up a lot of assists and damage.) I admit to being positively mediocre at this game.

Wrenchfarm, on 03 February 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

Lower the max engine size to 260, limit torso twist to 900-100 degrees. Boom, done. It can't flank/pursue nearly as bad, it can't lol-track mechs in a brawl. IE, it actually has weaknesses.

Lowering the max engine size would just convince me to put in more ammo and heat sinks (which it needs anyway), and maybe jump jets. Limiting the torso twist is BAD, as the mech's arms do not have any significant ability to track horizontally.

[Indoorsman]

Wrenchfarm, on 03 February 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

This result was typical

You will get better games more often with this loadout than any other you've got. Results speak for themselves. The torso twist reduction would be interesting, not sure about the engine size reduction though because then what would you do to max tonnage? Heat sinks comes to mind, so it becomes slower but loses the heat management penalty.

[Wrenchfarm]

Escef, on 03 February 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Except none of those apply to me. I seriously do not like piloting the SRMcat. It is one of the most uninteresting mechs there is. I do not get lots of kills in it. (Though in games where I am not the subject of focused fire I do tend to rack up a lot of assists and damage.) I admit to being positively mediocre at this game.


Lowering the max engine size would just convince me to put in more ammo and heat sinks (which it needs anyway), and maybe jump jets. Limiting the torso twist is BAD, as the mech's arms do not have any significant ability to track horizontally.

Yup. The whole idea is to LIMIT what the A1 can do. I absolutely know that curtailing it's twist will hurt it. The Cat's twist is insane, take a look -

It can track well beyond what mechs WITH arms can! Plus it gets all that utility for spreading damage out over it's components and a full view of what it is shooting at. So yeah, screw that. There is no reason a misile truck on legs should be one of the most spry and able mechs on the field.

Also the engine limitation would probably lead to increased payloads, sinks, or jumpjets. Whatever. The SRMCat already packs crazy ammo (I run 700 rockets in mine) and heat hasn't been crazy for me (to be fair, I don't have jets on so I already have more sinks that some other builds).

I'm not worried about more ammo or sinks because the Cat already cores out most enemies in 2 or 3 shots as it is. The A1 doesn't have to worry about a sustained brawl because it's usually killed whatever it was going for in a few seconds anyway.

What I am worried about is it's uncanny ability to ghost up on a flank, or sprint through to the LRM deadzone, or successfully chase lights and mediums to death.

[Escef]

Wrenchfarm, on 03 February 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

What I am worried about is it's uncanny ability to ghost up on a flank, or sprint through to the LRM deadzone, or successfully chase lights and mediums to death.

Something any fast, well armed mech would do. Imagine if they gave us the Kintaro. 4 Missile hard points, 2 energy, on a 55 ton frame with a base speed of 86.4 kph Hell, as is right now, with just a CN9-D you can raise all sorts of havoc.

[Wrenchfarm]

Escef, on 03 February 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Something any fast, well armed mech would do. Imagine if they gave us the Kintaro. 4 Missile hard points, 2 energy, on a 55 ton frame with a base speed of 86.4 kph Hell, as is right now, with just a CN9-D you can raise all sorts of havoc.

Sure can. You can flank and sprint in all sorts of fast mechs that either don't have the lol-ur-dead fire power of the splatcat or have other weaknesses to compensate. I'm not all that terrified of a CN9-D running up on me since I know a hard sneeze will take out that XL he must be running.

It's a beta. We're supposed to point out things that are broken. The A1-defenceforce isn't doing the game any favours with their blind refusal to admit "yeah, it's kinda out of whack."

[Tincan Nightmare]

Well they could have made SRM's a guided weapon like LRM's, Lock on to a target, give maybe each missile a 5 to 10 percent chance to lose lock (like in the TT) possibly lowered by TAG, NARC, Artemis. Each missile locks onto a seperate location, so even a splatcat that hit with all 36 SRM's would scatter that damage over the entire surface of his opponent, instead of the cone like shotgun blast that makes SRM's a better LBX AC than the LBX. Plus if it required a lock on with each volley, it would slow rate of fire. Streaks would just ensure all missiles hit all the time, though their location should also be scattered, maybe with a longer lock on time. Considering the Clans will be popping in to visit some time soon A1 cats will be the least of peoples worries when Mad Cats start chasing people down at 80 KPH mounting 10 Clan SRM6's (at 1.5 tons apiece) or 6 SSRM6's. Course if they did make SRM's guided then all we'd have right now would be AC and energy weapons with ECM.

[Escef]

Wrenchfarm, on 03 February 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

Sure can. You can flank and sprint in all sorts of fast mechs that either don't have the lol-ur-dead fire power of the splatcat or have other weaknesses to compensate. I'm not all that terrified of a CN9-D running up on me since I know a hard sneeze will take out that XL he must be running.

Seems to me most SRMcats run XLs as well. And the firepower is not significantly any more "lol-ure-dead" than any other dedicated striker build.

Wrenchfarm, on 03 February 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

The A1-defenceforce isn't doing the game any favours with their blind refusal to admit "yeah, it's kinda out of whack."

It's above curve, but the the "A1 is OP"-league isn't doing anyone any favors by being scared little girls. The A1 Catapult's only real crime is having a grand total of 1 build concept that isn't nerfed by ECM. Do you really want to take away the frame's only reliably useful build? Because that's pretty much what you're trying to do.

[Szaesse]

It's a pretty simple point. Boating will always happen. People demanding cannon evidence of a cat that mounts 6 SRM6's are just whining, in my mind.

In cannon, equipping a Cat like this would have been unthinkable. However, there were reasons. First, this sort of build is uber-specialized. Specialization isn't always a good thing in a real military environment. If your company of mechs is the main military force of a continent, you likely don't want one of your mechs being very specifically specialized for a single type of action. In this case, close quarters combat. It is totally ineffective at any range greater than 200m, which makes this machine useless in any environment other than urban environments, tight canyons, etc, Second, you have to consider your mechs requirements. If you are running a SplatterCat, you would need to consider the fact that, after you blew through your ridiculous ammo, you are useless. At that point, you would have to go back to base (or the supply train) and reload.

This isn't the case in MWO. People only need to think about getting through a 15 minute (MAX) game, with 8 enemy targets. In a cannon battle, the likelihood of only having 2 enemy lances to deal with is slim to none. Maybe in an ambush or patrol situation, but not main battle. You would at least have 12 targets to deal with, typically more. Also, there are plenty of cases where a battle goes WAY longer than 15 minutes. It wouldn't be uncommon for a rolling offensive to last 30-60 minutes for a single major confrontation (usually made up of multiple shorter skirmishes). At that's just one confrontation. In some cases of cannon history, there are battles that last for more than 24 hours. A SplatterCat would be a hindrance in this sort of situation. It would have to regularly retreat to be reloaded, which weakens your line.

These aren't "abusive" builds, or even "OP" builds. These are builds that are extremely effective at what they do, and nothing else. There are a few ways to punish this sort of behavior.

1 - Different maps. At present, we have many, many maps that encourage the 2xAC/20 and 6xSRM6 builds. River City, Frozen City and half of Forest Colony all allow these short range machines to be able to engage you without ever being seen prior to getting the jump on you. Once larger, specifically more open maps, are available this will drop off. These builds appear to not work nearly as well on Caustic, and more maps similar to Caustic (maybe not as hot, but much more open) will help limit how often these machines are launched.
2 - Proper implementation of CW. One way would be "dropship space". If your unit has to use a limited amount of space (which you would, if you had limited dropship support), you would have to consider how much ammo you can afford to bring with you. You have to consider your whole unit in this, so unless you have only a few ammo-based machines and the rest are laserboating, you will likely have to give up some ammo space for the ammo of other members of your unit. At that point, you have to be careful if you are running a SplatterCat. You can't waste your ammo without running the risk of having none left after the first couple of engagements.
3 - Objective assignments. If there are game modes that include more interesting or complex objectives than we currently have, specialist machines can be made to be a less effective choice.
4 - Respawn. If a game allows for respawn (say you launch with two machines each), specifically ammo-based boat mechs will become less of an advantage, as their boating limits their endurance. This wouldn't get rid of them entirely, or even heavily dissuade. It would make them less effective, as they have far more targets to burn through. With repair and rearm included, this could make these boats highly underwhelming. But combining this with option 1 would DEFINITELY show a decrease in these close-range killers.

The Gausspult, however, is actually a lot more acceptable. While note seen on a Catapult, the K2 WAS designed as a direct fire support machine. And there is a similar variant of the Vulture that mounts twin gauss rifles. As the Vulture and the Catapult are effectively similar in their originally intended roles, it can allow for precedent, if not true example from cannon.

[Szaesse]

Hmm. After looking at the numbers, SRMs should actually do a little less damage. An SRM6 should only do 12 damage, not 15. That's 2.5 damage per missile, instead of the original 2 damage. LRMs are in a similar situation. Those missiles should come down from 1.8 damage per missile back closer to 1 damage per missile. A full strike LRM20 does more damage than any other weapon in the game by nearly twice, for lower weight. Sure, ECM does horrible things to LRM builds, and it has a limited range, but it can strike out to 1000m (similar to an ERPPC), weighs 3 tons more, but does 3.5x more damage and doesn't require LoS to use.

[Girth Fillmore]

I often pilot a Dakkaphract (IM w/3xUAC5) and I actually go out of my way to find A1 Splatapults. They're dangerous for sure, but I can't call them abusive with a straight face.

The pilot in the video is definitely above-average in skill, and knows how to use the mech's strength to disorient and strike.

Wait until 12mans are introduced - I bet missile and ballistics boats won't be used as often due to prohibitive ammo weight. You'll want some MLAS in your back pocket for those long matches.

Edited by Girth Fillmore, 03 February 2013 - 07:42 PM.

[Demoned]

Girth Fillmore, on 03 February 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Wait until 12mans are introduced - I bet missile and ballistics boats won't be used as often due to prohibitive ammo weight. You'll want some MLAS in your back pocket for those long matches.

this i like playing the A1
but as a support mech, the 4SP out shines most mechs, for me anyway.

[Escef]

Szaesse, on 03 February 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

Hmm. After looking at the numbers, SRMs should actually do a little less damage. An SRM6 should only do 12 damage, not 15. That's 2.5 damage per missile, instead of the original 2 damage. LRMs are in a similar situation. Those missiles should come down from 1.8 damage per missile back closer to 1 damage per missile. A full strike LRM20 does more damage than any other weapon in the game by nearly twice, for lower weight. Sure, ECM does horrible things to LRM builds, and it has a limited range, but it can strike out to 1000m (similar to an ERPPC), weighs 3 tons more, but does 3.5x more damage and doesn't require LoS to use.

Keep in mind that armor amounts were doubled. To help compensate, ACs got more shots/ton so they could last in longer battles. Energy weapons are still decent due to the lack of reliance on ammo.

[Ravennus]

Girth Fillmore, on 03 February 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

The pilot in the video is definitely above-average in skill, and knows how to use the mech's strength to disorient and strike.

I just have to second this... I have watched many of Indoorsman's videos, and he's an amazing pilot in almost anything he rides.

Also, that is the FIRST time I have ever seen someone use Jump Jets effectively, especially since the latest patch that broke them. It was amazing to watch, and I learned a lot... as I often do watching him pilot.


But... and this is also to Indoorsman... he was dropping against PUGs, which let's face it, are often inexperienced with subpar loadouts.
With all the complaining of 4 mans, which DO happen, I've found that the better I get at piloting and the better my mech is built... the higher chance I have of swaying a match for my side. This is even if my team has a DC or a couple suicides.

You still can't Lone Wolf, and some basic plan in chat helps.... but a good experienced pilot can still help out random PUGs a lot. There actually seem to be enough people playing this game that the really skilled players are in the minority in most matches (though there are always FUN exceptions).



There is little doubt that this is a great build for what it does, especially under a good Mechwarrior.
It's also true that the current maps promote close combat brawling.

But there are definite counters to an A1. I'm sure Indoorsman himself has slaughtered MANY while piloting his Atlases.
I know I have.... and also torn them apart in my various Hunchback variants.

And like others have said... what else can an A1 do?
It has exactly 3 choices in loadout. LRMs, SRMs or SSRMs. That's it. Not even a single energy hardpoint for TAG and no ECM.
So what are they supposed to do? Mix them all? Not mount any weapons at all?


Honestly, I think an A1 with a good mix of LRMs and SRMs would be brutal in the right hands.

Edited by Ravennus, 03 February 2013 - 11:59 PM.

[Indoorsman]

Ravennus, on 03 February 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

I just have to second this... I have watched many of Indoorsman's videos, and he's an amazing pilot in almost anything he rides.

Also, that is the FIRST time I have ever seen someone use Jump Jets effectively, especially since the latest patch that broke them. It was amazing to watch, and I learned a lot... as I often do watching him pilot.

-----------

Honestly, I think an A1 with a good mix of LRMs and SRMs would be brutal in the right hands.

Hey, thanks. I got good with jumpjets from playing Jenners so much. Kinda carried over to Catapults.
-----------
An everythingapult? LRMs/SSRMs/SRMs, I might try that!

[Ravennus]

Indoorsman, on 04 February 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

An everythingapult? LRMs/SSRMs/SRMs, I might try that!

DOOO EEEEEET!!

Haha, I really want to see that video.

[CECILOFS]

The hybrid A1 is very doable. I used 2xALRM15 + 4xSSRM before ECM made that build useless. 4xSSRM + 2xSRM6 is ok as well just so you have something to counter ECM. You can fit LRMs and SRMs too, but only LRM5s or so. I say again, no-one is shedding any tears for all the other builds on the A1 that are practically not useable outside of premades where you know you will have ECM. Putting anything other than SRMs is a huge risk atm...and it can ONLY mount SRMs or guided missiles.

Also, high damage is great and all, but remember than SRMs spread damage quite a bit. LRM boats tend to get high damage numbers too, but that's all spread out over their armour.

I keep seeing SS of 1k damage in 8/0 steamrolls where the other team gets 200 damage combined....yeah that's not saying anything about the A1 being OP, just that you were stomping noobs.

Even better are SS of 1k damage when you LOST. Surely if the chassis is that OP and does that much damage you should win? No, because total damage doesn't necessarily mean effective damage and it doen't necessarily mean good teamwork or tactics, which are factors in who wins the match.

At the end of the day though, I won't cry if they reduce missile damage. A 72pt alpha with 2dam/missile is still brutal and will still make peope cry.

Edited by CECILOFS, 04 February 2013 - 02:01 AM.

[Rippthrough]

nostra, on 01 February 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

Technically good tactics or a skillful pilot can get around any opponents' uber-build BS like the Gaussapult or Streakcat (anyone else notice that they all seem to be on the Catapult?). Unfortunately the issue lies in player mentality vs. Battletech canon... You'd never meet a Dual AC/20 Catapult K2 in the Battletech universe, some 'mechs are usually given a set role to perform, and are rarely used outside of that role. Conversely, other 'mechs are meant for a balanced configuration to meet combat at all ranges. But you get a Stalker, for example, meant to be the latter type, as all the stock builds would show you, able to mount weapons with overlapping range profiles.....but then some jackhole on the internet trolls up a 6-PPC build "just because he can" aaaaaaand the game is temporarily ruined because it dominates the field in a way that it was never meant to do.

Shock. Horror. Mechs not built for bedtime stories in "Not completely worthless" weapons loadout scandal!

Seriously. Who the hell would design anything where only half the weaponry is viable at any one given range?

"But my Battletech bedtime story collection said they don't do that"
Well BooF*****nHoo. Probably why they keep dying.

Edited by Rippthrough, 04 February 2013 - 02:28 AM.

[BerryChunks]

Paran01ac, on 01 February 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

There is a counter to any build. Find it in your brain. If you are able to.

There is no counter for COIN FLIPPING, *****.

[Indoorsman]

CECILOFS, on 04 February 2013 - 01:59 AM, said:

I keep seeing SS of 1k damage in 8/0 steamrolls where the other team gets 200 damage combined....yeah that's not saying anything about the A1 being OP, just that you were stomping noobs.

Ok so what about where neither team does more combined damage than me, OP build then?

CECILOFS, on 04 February 2013 - 01:59 AM, said:

Even better are SS of 1k damage when you LOST. Surely if the chassis is that OP and does that much damage you should win? No, because total damage doesn't necessarily mean effective damage and it doen't necessarily mean good teamwork or tactics, which are factors in who wins the match.

You're right, #1 position when you lose is either a sign you got the worst team ever OR you were playing something that might be a bit unbalanced .
Well here was both: Raven before this last patch, 5v8 = my team was bad(outnumbered) and Raven is a bit unbalanced: