284 replies to this topic

[Carrion Hound]

Stringburka, on 04 February 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

While I still don't have big issues with them personally, and the video is by someone who is a very skilled pilot, I have reassessed my opinion and agree that the A1 might need to be tagen down a peg.

I do not, however, agree with slowing it or reducing torso twist - at least not much. I feel doing that will just turn it into a sucky Stalker. It needs to be kept much more mobile than a Stalker.

One suggestion might be to reduce the number of missile tubes. That wouldn't hurt LRM builds that much, as they're less reliant on a strong alpha, but causing the 6 SRM6 to be shot in volleys would mean they are less likely to hit moving targets.

Nope, just makes them slow moving sniper rifles. I run a PB with 2srms in an arm, and I often cut apart light mechs because I can spray them out easier. Just saying.


Here's my fraction of a cent on the A1. It's fine. The maps need to be varied, the gameplay modes need to be varied. I've piloted just about every friggin mech there is so far in the game, and found them all to have strengths and weaknesses. Like it should be.

The A1 puts a nice level of fear in the game, a bit of a heart pound. PGI wants to make a game that's immersive, brings a specific reaction in the mind to offer a pleasing experience.

Chill, kick back, drink a beer, relax. It's not like your being killed in real life and being brought back with the memory. Giggle at it, take it all with a grain of salt, learn from it.

I've very often killed a streak-cat by simply just driving my mech like a drunken *****. Sure it's got shotgun spread, but thats just that. SHOTGUN, not ballistic. Also, I find the AC20cat to be a laughable joke that gets primed in just about every 4 or 8 man I happen to be in. Hell even in tandem drops with friends we single both mechs out, simply because they are a threat. The A1 isn't op. I don't think any mech is really OP. It's more of having ***** moments, bad luck, or just a wierd battle flow. These all are natural things, things that can be corrected(Except for bad luck).


Haters can hate, your opinions are worthless to me. Go kill things, it's more constructive than whining at another speck of dirt on this warped planet.

[Ryebear]

While I have no quote to cite, Im pretty sure the goal of every multiplayer competitive game designer is to balance characters (mechs) and items (equipment) so evenly that there is talk of imbalance in the first place.

When the same chassis gets brought up repeatedly it seems, to me, to be a clear sign that something is wrong.

Yes I can give anecdotes of how I beat a certain build in a certain situation, but that isn't evidence that what people are complaining about isnt true.

[Void Angel]

TVMA Doc, on 11 February 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

Other than the times when I mess up and get in a bad position/don't notice the splatcat, I typically will win a brawl with my Atlas. They are far from an "I win" button. They may be a bit of an overpowered one-trick-pony-for their weight, but there are plenty of counters.

I haven't got a dog in this fight, as the saying goes, but I feel compelled to point out that "outweigh him by 35 tons" is not valid advice on how to counter a build. =)

[Gothbloodman]

Stringburka, on 11 February 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

No-one is saying they should be nerfed out of existence. Taking them down a notch to the level of most other builds != nerfed out of existence.

To quote one of my favorite movies, "And when everyone's super... no one will be." It's the same idea, but backwards.

They have to have their unique strengths and weaknesses (and the Cats DO have weaknesses!), or they will all end up being basically the same [read: no fun!].

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Well...some of u guys should really try fighting multiple srm cats in a match with good lrm cover support. very very hard to beat.

[Karl Streiger]

Brown Hornet, on 12 February 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

Well...some of u guys should really try fighting multiple srm cats in a match with good lrm cover support. very very hard to beat.

Well the answer is not 42...the answer is: "Just shoot the ears of - its simple"
I dunno how often i have read this...and usually i think...I didn't know that there is MC-ammunition in the game... GASTEO Ammunition (Guided Ammunition for Shoting The EARS Off).

Edited by Karl Streiger, 12 February 2013 - 06:28 AM.

[Sgt Disciple]

I've leveled up dragon's ,atlas's then hunchbacks and now cat's. I will say the cat is a nasty machine but so are other builds. I watched a hex PLC awesome destroy people and when there's no DDC around lrms will eat you alive as well. Its war you will die horrible deaths deal with it. Not to mention a splat cat will run you upwards of 10mil to build. Should all cars you buy go the same speed no matter how much they cost? Oooh nerf them Ferraris their op. Lol you should get what you pay for and as it turns out we do! Now die!

Edited by Sgt Disciple, 12 February 2013 - 09:24 AM.

[Lew]

The problem with the Cat, at least in my opinion, isn't the fact that it can boat SRM's but how mobile it is. The "counters" to it are to stay at range and clip its ears, however several mechs either cannot clip the ears without getting in to SRM range because they didn't pack any long range weaponry or cannot stay at range due to the size of the maps, and the fact that the splatcat is faster than most mechs.

I do not think there is any justification in the splatcat achieving the same speed as a Hunchback (without speed tweak, only 2-3kph slower with it) while also being able to pack (significantly) more firepower, (significantly) more armor AND jumpjets while also having an extreme amount of torso twist.

PGI already have different engine sizes available for different variants of the Raven (The RVN-3L), this is a case where, again, in my opinion, they should really use it too, restrict the Cat A1 to a 240 Engine, 59.8(65.8)kph, fast enough to keep up with other Heavies and catch Assaults, but slow enough Mediums and Lights can run away.

I believe that reducing the engine size on the CPLT-A1 would solve most problems with the splatcat and is both a buff and a nerf, as the lighter engine allows them more tonnage to fit Artemis, more ammo, more heatsinks and/or a non XL engine to significantly increase durability while also making them cheaper to field.

Edited by Lew, 12 February 2013 - 10:08 AM.

[Sharp Spikes]

My complaint is not about Cat being OP in any of its configurations, it is about "Gausscat" and "CatAC/40" and "Supernova Stalker" etc. etc. being as far from BT canon as it is possible. Speaking of CATs I'd say more: fitting AC/20s in place of MACHINEGUNS is a total bull*it from any point of view. IMO weapon configurations for a mech should be limited not only by hardpoints, but also by maximum number of crits allowed for weapons per location.

Yes, there are many people who say "screw canon, we like it this way." I can't understand them. If you throw BT canon out of window you're left with walking excavators armed with laser pointers fighting for no reason. If that is what you're after - try Hawken, it'll be much more entertaining for you.

Sorry for my significantly imperfect english

Edited by Sharp Spikes, 12 February 2013 - 12:14 PM.

[kardam]

Sharp Spikes, on 12 February 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

(...)

Yes, there are many people who say "screw canon, we like it this way." I can't understand them. If you throw BT canon out of window you're left with walking excavators armed with laser pointers fighting for no reason. If that is what you're after - try Hawken, it'll be much more entertaining for you.

In the first place, non-canon is a constant 8v8 deatchmatch with guaranteed survival of human pilots and free mech repairs

[Marchant Consadine]

Irvine, on 02 February 2013 - 03:07 AM, said:

Helmstif, on 02 February 2013 - 12:07 AM, said:

Oh and I forgot to mention, it's technically IMPOSSIBLE to get AROUND an Catapult. That thing has a head of an owl that turns to all sorts of creepy directions. Why the **** would they make a long-range support 'Mech turn like that?

Because there is 0(zero) degrees of side to side travel in the arms?

I think the point is that a cat should have a disavantage from not having side travel in arms. This alone would negate all of the problems of 6 srm (ac20 isn't a aproblem IMO) builds, without messing the weapon systems for other mechs.

Anyways let's wait 'till variant quirks. I'm almost 100% that this boating problem will be addressed in those in some way. If they limit the torso twist just a bit on A1 the problem is solved. Same if they limit it's engine size.

And yes it is a problem (although not as big as some seem to think and abusive is not the word I would use). With equal skill a splatpult will outperform any other heavy in all but the caustic map. The difference is smaller with high skill level players, but with low skill level the splatpult is hugely better than any alternative (simply because it's easy to be even somewhat effective with it).

[Karl Streiger]

Marchant Consadine, on 12 February 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Anyways let's wait 'till variant quirks. I'm almost 100% that this boating problem will be addressed in those in some way. If they limit the torso twist just a bit on A1 the problem is solved. Same if they limit it's engine size.

Lets hope so.
While i have read the Super Nova Stalker...i think the Stalker is thanks to his low turn rate and low torso twist angle - acceptable balanced. Got into his flank and he is done. Works on long range...(but than mostly brawler stalker guys) or at really short range...because nothing is more satisfactory as a AC 20 bullet right through is armor and watching all this nice secondary explosion ripping the mech appart.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 13 February 2013 - 12:45 AM.

[Tolkien]

CECILOFS, on 02 February 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

Its called tactics. As in: Don't let the point-blank range killer get into point-blank range.

As for getting behind the Catapult, that's what team mates are for. Not that you need to get behind it when you can just shoot it in the face. Or the massive, massive ears.

With the exception of the sand map, there are very few places that don't have cover that lets you get within 200m of the enemy unmolested. I believe this is a design throwback to the pre-ECM LRM storm days.

So on the one hand we have a situation where mediums, heavies and assaults are ruined by the splat cat (A1). The k2 on the other hand is most effective against heavy and assault targets. On the other hand we have game balance being pushed more and more to Craven 3L's since in one of those it's at least easy to get outside of 270m and stay there to neuter the splat cat. The AC40 cat can still kill you out there, but they at least have to be a very good shot to do it (and lucky).

Just to be clear, I am not trying to say "learn to play" in any way as people who respond that way to a tactical gripe are neither helpful nor insightful. I am trying to point out the ways I get around it, and also to agree with what another poster said: The best way to get OP builds fixed is to play them exclusively - that's why I run 90% of the time in my Raven 3L, or other ECM chariots (My own testing showed with better than 99.999% certainty that the team with more ECM is more likely to win, and also that the team with at least 1 more ECM than the other is 99.97% likely to win at least twice as often! Control: In matches where we had equal ECM numbers I won ~2:1, in games where a team had more ECM they won >4:1 ergo it's not my badassery or bloodlust skewing the results.)

Edited by Tolkien, 13 February 2013 - 01:36 AM.

[Segoris]

While I agree maps are a large reason why brawlers are preferred right now, there are still plenty of places which can help a player stay outside of 200m on every map (though River City to brawlers what CV is to LRM/Snipers). Often times players don't even go to these currently available areas and still feel the need to go off and complain. Examples I've experienced in this past couple of weeks alone which resulted in people complaining about one of my builds or mechs being OP include - killing LRM boats in tunnels with little to no escort with one of my brawlers, killing snipers in the middle of cities (River City) which block their shots because I don't stand still with one of my brawlers, and killing brawlers going in the water on Forest Colony or in the middle on Caldera with one of my PPC or lrms builds. All of these complaints I've had thrown at me in games deserve a "learn to play" response. These moments are as equally stupid as going swimming and calling a shark OP when he bites off your damn leg. This causes people to cry and blame the shark because which somehow becomes news that a shark was mean because someone didn't learn to keep their ******* of the shark infested waters. Maybe they'd be alive if they took the time to learn about them in school or by watching shark week. Why they didn't watch shark week is beyond me....but I'm borderline ranting to an off-topic area now

Also, I'd rate saying "learn to play" as about equal in being helpful and/or insightful as posting exaggerated "statistics" from "testing." Not just your ECM stats either but "stats" posted from both sides of the argument. Though I agree ECM can and usually does effect a game's outcome, it is becoming less and less lately and certainly no where near 99.999% win for the team with the greater ECM.

As a sidenote, I personally think that Frozen City and Forest Colony are really balanced and well done maps, while River City favors brawlers and CV favors snipers/lrms - although since the PPC buffs snipers have been more common in RC and I've seen a few good strats which have torn apart other teams while the PPC heavy team turtles.

[Tolkien]

Segoris, on 13 February 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

... posting exaggerated "statistics" from "testing." Not just your ECM stats either but "stats" posted from both sides of the argument. Though I agree ECM can and usually does effect a game's outcome, it is becoming less and less lately and certainly no where near 99.999% win for the team with the greater ECM.

http://mwomercs.com/...46#entry1709146

I'm not sure why you're using quotation marks on tests, or statistics since I literally did tests then calculated the implied statistics based on the outcomes.

In case you didn't know I actually had done these tests and want to look them over, here's a link to them, and just to clarify yes it is at the better than 99.999% certainty that n+1 ECM is correlated with higher victory chance.

I'm not sure if you mistook my statement for hyperbole since you didn't know I had actually done a study, but I assure you it is not.

Edited by Tolkien, 13 February 2013 - 03:01 PM.

[Vodrin Thales]

Personally I don't think the Boomcat or Splatcat are all that imbalanced. Strong and very good in a point blank fight sure, but not as bad as some here are making them out to be. I'd love to see them toned down slightly, but I'm not quite sure how you do it without crippling other builds for the mech. If you slow them or greatly reduce the torso twist you make LRM builds, or primary laser builds almost non-viable. And if you just reduce the torso twist on the A1, anything but an A1 LRM boat gets very difficult to play.

In general PGI tries to encourage more balanced builds, but I think the only way they will get balanced builds to be primary will be to make some larger maps that penalize short range weapon only builds more severely, or to simply limit build options through limiting what can go in a given hardpoint (and I know they would prefer not to do this because they like players to have as many build options as possible).

Tolkien, on 13 February 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...46#entry1709146

I'm not sure why you're using quotation marks on tests, or statistics since I literally did tests then calculated the implied statistics based on the outcomes.

In case you didn't know I actually had done these tests and want to look them over, here's a link to them, and just to clarify yes it is at the better than 99.999% certainty that n+1 ECM is correlated with higher victory chance.

I'm not sure if you mistook my statement for hyperbole since you didn't know I had actually done a study, but I assure you it is not.

Your statement may not be hyperbole, but it is seriously flawed. I dropped in a 4 man that had no ECM mechs last night and we won 8 of 10 matches. For 5 of the 8 wins we had no ECM at all on our team.

This past weekend I dropped as part of an 8 man pre-made. We ran entirely without ECM for 10 drops and scored 8 wins again. In 4 of the wins the opposing team had 4 ECM mechs.

Both your data and mine are flawed as they are from limited sample sizes. I will agree that ECM is strong and makes it easier to win if you have more of it, but it is far from an "I win" button. Not having it just changes how you need to play, and when viewed from that standpoint it makes your research seem misleading.

Edited by Vodrin Thales, 13 February 2013 - 04:14 PM.

[Stringburka]

About torso twists, some say that the huge torso twist is to compensate for not having arms that can twist. That makes sense, until you realize it's torso twist is larger than most 'mechs torso twist and arm twist combined.

Only the hunchback and spider have larger torso+arm twist than the catapult, and the awesome has as large (unless the awesome has twistX, then it has better). 'mechs that are absolutely reliant on their agility, such as Commandos and Jenners, have less torso twist than the catapult.

So I don't really buy the argument that it's needed becaues of no arm twist. Cicadas, Jenners and Ravens also have no arm twist. Those are 'mechs designed for agility, and they have noticeably less torso twist than the catapult.

Edited by Stringburka, 13 February 2013 - 04:47 PM.

[Haitchpeasauce]

Haven't read the other replies. Sorry.

The srm-cat, the AC20 cat, PPC stalker/cat (most of the OP builds are catapults or stalkers) ... they can honestly be countered in this current day. In the past, streakcats were nigh-unstoppable due to cockpit shake and no ECM. Now the streakcat is a rare sight in the wild.

But about srm-cats, AC20 cats, gauss cats ... they are powerful, and will have their way if ignored and allowed to play to their strengths. But they have big limitations. Take the arm off the srm-cat and you halve its power, take both off and it's useless. The gauss and AC20 are easily critted so just pummel the torsos. AC20s are also short range.

Don't forget that catapults have a very easy to hit head hitbox.

The big problem isn't the builds, it's the difficulty to communicate primary targets in a random pug. Cats go down fast with a little focus fire.

[Koniving]

Helmstif, on 01 February 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

Words.

The AC-20 is at the fault of the weapon.

In the case of the splat cat it happens -- as clearly indicated in the video you offered -- because all 36 missiles come out of the same 12 holes, thus having no spread. If the hard points each had their own assigned holes in the two launchers, the spread would be much more varied, and it would be much less accurate.

Take a Commando 2D. Load in 2 SRM-4's in the right arm. Fire at something. All 8 missiles come out of 4 holes at the same time. Not only that, but so tightly grouped it looks like one AC round. It's a recurring issue in the game.

But I don't see why this is under guides and not suggestions or balancing.


Examples. Missile hard-point issues, and then abuse of arm reticle to lock-on targets. Using arm reticle to fire lock-on missiles sideways.

Edited by Koniving, 13 February 2013 - 05:30 PM.

[Haitchpeasauce]

ECM streak Commandos ruin my breakfast cereal.
I hate them more than anything... except the Raven 3L.