284 replies to this topic

[Stringburka]

Willie Sauerland, on 10 February 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

The desperation is the crying over something being overpowered because you can't figure out a working tactic...

What about my death field example? If, say, only DRG-5N could equip a special module that autokilled anything that came within 300 meters, bam dead, would people still be desperate if they cried over it being overpowered? Would it be balanced just because some dude said "hey, there's no issue, just find out a working tactic, stop crying".

[Willie Sauerland]

Stringburka, on 10 February 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

What about my death field example? If, say, only DRG-5N could equip a special module that autokilled anything that came within 300 meters, bam dead, would people still be desperate if they cried over it being overpowered? Would it be balanced just because some dude said "hey, there's no issue, just find out a working tactic, stop crying".

Failed hypothetical is still fail.

An A1 splatpult is not instakill within 300 meters (unless bad piloting is involved or the target is already damaged - but one could argue any chassis/weapon is overpowered in these conditions as well). Therefore, the hypothetical is flawed and did not deserve an answer.

[Indoorsman]

Willie Sauerland, on 10 February 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

Who said run from them if you are a brawler? I said run from them if you can't figure out how to beat them. A significant difference to what you are implying. I stated the skill set might be overpowered, but the chassis itself certainly isn't.

The desperation is the crying over something being overpowered because you can't figure out a working tactic...

A majority of the ways to beat a splatcat in this thread have involved 2 things, keeping a distance and shooting the ears off. So basically shoot the ears off from a distance. In other words don't brawl it. If it gets into brawling range you lose. There is no strategy to fighting a splatcat in a brawl that would work... 1v1.

EDIT:
Actually there is 1... play a splatcat.

Edited by Indoorsman, 10 February 2013 - 12:57 PM.

[Rattazustra]

Balance issues in games, be they computer games or pen and paper rpgs, mostly show up when checks and balances are not applied that prevent such things in reality, or when limitating and mitigating factors are eiter eliminated or diminished.

Stating that some things are different in the tabletop has no real relevance whatsoever, because the level of applied intelligence in the tabletop was much lower than it is in a game like this. Here we got thousands of people who do what they are allowed to do. In tabletops or option restricted games much fewer people decide what they want to be possible. Yet a mechwarrior, or even worse a battlemech engineer, living and breathing within this fictional universe, would never ever come to think that something might be unstylish or overpowered. Overpowered concepts is what people have always strived to realize. And reality has proven that there are none such. There is no overpowered main battletank or gun or jet or helicopter in reality. They all got drawbacks to compensate for advantages. You want fast and agile? That means lightly armoured. You want speed AND armour? Sounds like massive fuel consumption and high cost.

A one trick pony is only good if you can afford to give a damn about whether or not you survive and what it costs you to maintain it.

The biggest problem is that they stick to a pricing system that never made sense to begin with and eliminated secondary cost. The tabletop is a horrid source for that for too many reasons to state them briefly and it's pricing system was broken right off the start. Just compare the cost of tanks and vehicles to that of mechs and everything stops to many any sense at all pretty soon.

Monetary cost and opportunistic cost are THE big equalizers in reality, followed directly by the preservation of one's own life. They mean nothing in this game. That creates the biggest problems with perceived balance.

[Shade4x]

Stringburka, on 10 February 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

What about my death field example? If, say, only DRG-5N could equip a special module that autokilled anything that came within 300 meters, bam dead, would people still be desperate if they cried over it being overpowered? Would it be balanced just because some dude said "hey, there's no issue, just find out a working tactic, stop crying".

How do you expect anyone to take you seriously siteing a hypothetical "death field" scenerio?

[Willie Sauerland]

Indoorsman, on 10 February 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

A majority of the ways to beat a splatcat in this thread have involved 2 things, keeping a distance and shooting the ears off. So basically shoot the ears off from a distance. In other words don't brawl it. If it gets into brawling range you lose. There is no strategy to fighting a splatcat in a brawl that would work... 1v1.

EDIT:
Actually there is 1... play a splatcat.

A majority, but not all.

Since you weren't quoting me or apparently implying that I stated the only way to kill an A1 is from a distance, then I apologize for I thought you were lumping me into that category.

[Shade4x]

Indoorsman, on 10 February 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

A majority of the ways to beat a splatcat in this thread have involved 2 things, keeping a distance and shooting the ears off. So basically shoot the ears off from a distance. In other words don't brawl it. If it gets into brawling range you lose. There is no strategy to fighting a splatcat in a brawl that would work... 1v1.

EDIT:
Actually there is 1... play a splatcat.

Actually, i really haven't had trouble fighting A1's 1 on 1. Besides brawling out of its range, if you can stay 50 meters or more away, with an AMS, you can survive fairly easily. Just arm tank whats left of the srm's. I usually take the first and then try to run past the CAT, then simply circle strafe. SRM's have a slight delay and will miss, If he stops, he really has to be on his game to hit someone flying across his screen. What you dont want to do is run head-on and hug the A1. For the same reason you don't do that to an atlas. A1's are one of the few mech's i destroy an arm rather then aim for the center torso, it cuts there dps in half. Also keep in mind that A1's with 6 SRM 6's overheat pretty fast, especially if there going 80ish.

[Aggressor666]

Shade4x, on 10 February 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

How do you expect anyone to take you seriously siteing a hypothetical "death field" scenerio?

not sure if its due to this thread or the youtube vid but whatever the case I have a feeling this thread will get hotter and hotter as the abuse of the build continues.
I just got out of a game with 5 of that crappy build 2 on my team 3 on the opposing team AND I've seen at least one in 85% of the games I've been in today,
this kind of gaming will NOT attract new players to this game and to all the halfwits that will chime in with "lol dont care" or "L2PLAY BEDDER" keep in mind new players that stay and like the game = $$$ and no matter how much you like your little douche 1 button hurr hurr because I can build.... money will always win.

[Willie Sauerland]

Aggressor666, on 10 February 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

not sure if its due to this thread or the youtube vid but whatever the case I have a feeling this thread will get hotter and hotter as the abuse of the build continues.
I just got out of a game with 5 of that crappy build 2 on my team 3 on the opposing team AND I've seen at least one in 85% of the games I've been in today,
this kind of gaming will NOT attract new players to this game and to all the halfwits that will chime in with "lol dont care" or "L2PLAY BEDDER" keep in mind new players that stay and like the game = $$$ and no matter how much you like your little douche 1 button hurr hurr because I can build.... money will always win.

I'm all for a training ground for new players, and I think a PUG match should be simply a match where 8 random people get placed to fight against 8 other random players - no groups allowed. I would even like to take that a step further and say a PUG match for new players should be against other players of the same time in game also running only trial mechs. Some of this will be fixed with the ELO ranking system in development.

As such - point taken but should hopefully be fixed soon.

[Shade4x]

Aggressor666, on 10 February 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

not sure if its due to this thread or the youtube vid but whatever the case I have a feeling this thread will get hotter and hotter as the abuse of the build continues.
I just got out of a game with 5 of that crappy build 2 on my team 3 on the opposing team AND I've seen at least one in 85% of the games I've been in today,
this kind of gaming will NOT attract new players to this game and to all the halfwits that will chime in with "lol dont care" or "L2PLAY BEDDER" keep in mind new players that stay and like the game = $$$ and no matter how much you like your little douche 1 button hurr hurr because I can build.... money will always win.

My problem is the mentality. When someone gets killed by something alot, the first thing most players do is cry nerf, instead of trying to figure out the builds weakness, or trying to figure a way to counter it. There is always going to be a newbslayer build, one that takes advantage of their lack of knowledge. I think that kills the game in the long wrong. When dev's listen to that, they turn every mech equal, with no advantages or disadvantages. This is at direct odds of the purpose of battletech. So instead of complaining lets see if we can't find a solution for you. I'll take you seriously as long as you take me seriously.

What type of build are you playing? What type of setup do you have? What do you do when you encounter an A1 CAT?

[Shade4x]

Willie Sauerland, on 10 February 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

I'm all for a training ground for new players, and I think a PUG match should be simply a match where 8 random people get placed to fight against 8 other random players - no groups allowed. I would even like to take that a step further and say a PUG match for new players should be against other players of the same time in game also running only trial mechs. Some of this will be fixed with the ELO ranking system in development.

As such - point taken but should hopefully be fixed soon.

I think 8 mans should fight other 8 mans, but i think there is room for 2 man or 4 man groups in pugs, i think they just need to be matched with other 2 or 4 man groups. What is no fun is when you run into a 4 or 8 man group thats premade with great builds and your stuck with 6 trial mech's and a semi afk atlas with LRM's. 4 on 4 with filler is still win-able even when one side is trials and the other side has some decent builds.

[Indoorsman]

Shade4x, on 10 February 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

My problem is the mentality. When someone gets killed by something alot, the first thing most players do is cry nerf, instead of trying to figure out the builds weakness, or trying to figure a way to counter it. There is always going to be a newbslayer build, one that takes advantage of their lack of knowledge. I think that kills the game in the long wrong. When dev's listen to that, they turn every mech equal, with no advantages or disadvantages. This is at direct odds of the purpose of battletech. So instead of complaining lets see if we can't find a solution for you. I'll take you seriously as long as you take me seriously.

Ok so what about people like me who play the A1 and have played every other mech in the game since closed beta and believe either SRMs or the A1/Catapults are too powerful? What if SRM6s did 2.25 damage per missile and SRM4s, SRM2s and SSRM2s still did 2.5? That would be a 10% damage nerf on A1 Cats but not too bad for brawler Atlas or other builds with 1-3 SRM6 and the rest of the SRM/SSRM builds would remain the same.

[Kserin]

Indoorsman, on 10 February 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

Ok so what about people like me who play the A1 and have played every other mech in the game since closed beta and believe either SRMs or the A1/Catapults are too powerful? What if SRM6s did 2.25 damage per missile and SRM4s, SRM2s and SSRM2s still did 2.5? That would be a 10% damage nerf on A1 Cats but not too bad for brawler Atlas or other builds with 1-3 SRM6 and the rest of the SRM/SSRM builds would remain the same.

I actually like that little nerf. SRM6's were just a tad too much, no matter WHAT mech they were placed on. This change would definitely be for the better. I never thought the SRMcat was OP, but any mech that sports a lot of SRM's was always just a little "too" scary.

[Shade4x]

Indoorsman, on 10 February 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

Ok so what about people like me who play the A1 and have played every other mech in the game since closed beta and believe either SRMs or the A1/Catapults are too powerful? What if SRM6s did 2.25 damage per missile and SRM4s, SRM2s and SSRM2s still did 2.5? That would be a 10% damage nerf on A1 Cats but not too bad for brawler Atlas or other builds with 1-3 SRM6 and the rest of the SRM/SSRM builds would remain the same.

There is a huge difference between a well informed opinion and a someone who doesn't even try. The title of this post is "regarding abusive builds" Meaning that playing certain builds are wrong, and go against the game. The poster i was refering to didn't even try to find a way to beat a Catapult. I don't believe that anyone should encourage that as a first response. I would more respect someone who tried various strategies, asked for help and atleast understood why it was overpowered if it was.

Now i have 20 mech's and have played every mech in the game except the atlas (always hated them). I disagree with your nerf, because it would be a rather large nerf for the centurion, the hunchback, and anything else that uses 1-3 SRM's. In addition at that point why not just use SRM4's? If you want to nerf them, your better off doing it with spread or heat. even 1/2 a heat to each SRM6 would drasticly lower the A1's DPS, however would be virtually unnoticeable by a hunchie with 2 srm6's.

And to answer your question more direct, yea there are plenty of ways to point out and suggest changes. Crying "He's over powered cause he killed me, so ban his mech!" is not one of them. Do you really not see a difference between "hey i think there might be a problem" and "OMFG NERF THE GUY WHO KILLED ME CAUSE IM THE BEST!!" ?

[Ratpoison]

Splatcats are overrated as hell. They don't scare me in the least. A good Atlas will outbrawl it any day.

[liku]

Helmstif, on 01 February 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

Update: Extremely situational builds and current map design.


Yeah, you know what I'm talking about. Hexa-SRM6 Catapult A1, dual AC20 K2 - the builds that performs exceptionally well under very specific circumstances; the builds that you run with the thought of "BECAUSE I CAN" in mind; the builds that you swear under your breath when you encounter.

Isn't there something wrong with it?
NO

The guy in the video play very well he is a very good pilot. ..just try to do the same hen come back here

Because when you have a build that can two-shot kill an Atlas in the face, and you see those loadouts appear every match or two, you probably should think about it.

(I'm not including things like supermassive LRM Stalkers or hexa-PPC Stalkers. ECM, heat cap and minimum range are all very severe drawbacks to sustainable damage output. The two Cat builds mentioned above, however, would always be effective as long as you have patience and maintain basic wolfpack tactic.)

I'm not blaming PGI for being "bad" or whatever - because that's not the fact, we're seeing them improving the game step by step - but when certain rules are exploited, we probably should change them.

Words.

UPDATE: Here's a video of Splatcat courtesy of Indoorsman. I think it explains a lot of things.

Yep the video explain very well that you only needs skills

[Indoorsman]

Shade4x, on 10 February 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

There is a huge difference between a well informed opinion and a someone who doesn't even try. The title of this post is "regarding abusive builds" Meaning that playing certain builds are wrong, and go against the game. The poster i was refering to didn't even try to find a way to beat a Catapult. I don't believe that anyone should encourage that as a first response. I would more respect someone who tried various strategies, asked for help and atleast understood why it was overpowered if it was.

Now i have 20 mech's and have played every mech in the game except the atlas (always hated them). I disagree with your nerf, because it would be a rather large nerf for the centurion, the hunchback, and anything else that uses 1-3 SRM's. In addition at that point why not just use SRM4's? If you want to nerf them, your better off doing it with spread or heat. even 1/2 a heat to each SRM6 would drasticly lower the A1's DPS, however would be virtually unnoticeable by a hunchie with 2 srm6's.

And to answer your question more direct, yea there are plenty of ways to point out and suggest changes. Crying "He's over powered cause he killed me, so ban his mech!" is not one of them. Do you really not see a difference between "hey i think there might be a problem" and "OMFG NERF THE GUY WHO KILLED ME CAUSE IM THE BEST!!" ?

It would be a 10% difference for an A1 going from a 90 pt alpha to an 81pt alpha, but for an HBK 4SP it's 55-52 for ~5.5% difference. The CN9-A 2ML 3SRM6 would probably be the build most hurt outside of the splatcat going from 55-50.5 for ~8% difference. Maybe people would use the ballistic hardpoint again!? "why not just use SRM4's?" Because SRM6 would still be good. Lastly, I see a difference in how it is stated but the message is the same. Not sure if anyone has actually said "OMFG NERF THE GUY WHO KILLED ME CAUSE IM THE BEST!!" though

[Ryebear]

Shade4x, on 10 February 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

There is a huge difference between a well informed opinion and a someone who doesn't even try. The title of this post is "regarding abusive builds" Meaning that playing certain builds are wrong, and go against the game. The poster i was refering to didn't even try to find a way to beat a Catapult. I don't believe that anyone should encourage that as a first response. I would more respect someone who tried various strategies, asked for help and atleast understood why it was overpowered if it was.

Now i have 20 mech's and have played every mech in the game except the atlas (always hated them). I disagree with your nerf, because it would be a rather large nerf for the centurion, the hunchback, and anything else that uses 1-3 SRM's. In addition at that point why not just use SRM4's? If you want to nerf them, your better off doing it with spread or heat. even 1/2 a heat to each SRM6 would drasticly lower the A1's DPS, however would be virtually unnoticeable by a hunchie with 2 srm6's.

The spirit of the OPs post was that these "abusive builds" should be discouraged. I take that as limiting the potential to create abusive builds.

Next, Indoorsman is in a very good position to complain about SRMs, SRM Cats and just plain Cats. Have a look at his videos.

And to everyone giving the poster who mentioned a Deathray grief. He was using a Deathray as a metaphor to polarize everyone into either 'learn to play' camp or the 'there might be something to this abusive build stuff' and maybe make people consider where they stand on it, and how universally applicable their beliefs are.

[Indoorsman]

Ryebear, on 10 February 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

The spirit of the OPs post was that these "abusive builds" should be discouraged. I take that as limiting the potential to create abusive builds.

Next, Indoorsman is in a very good position to complain about SRMs, SRM Cats and just plain Cats. Have a look at his videos.

And to everyone giving the poster who mentioned a Deathray grief. He was using a Deathray as a metaphor to polarize everyone into either 'learn to play' camp or the 'there might be something to this abusive build stuff' and maybe make people consider where they stand on it, and how universally applicable their beliefs are.

You just summed up page 12 in a nutshell lol.

[Red Klown X]

there is no abuse in game , there is lack of teamplay !