Jump to content

Regarding Abusive Builds....


284 replies to this topic

#181 Void Angel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 7,583 posts
  • LocationParanoiaville

Posted 05 February 2013 - 12:21 PM

View PostEl Death Smurf, on 05 February 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

and leave the A1 alone, seriously, you took its LRMs with all your QQ, then its streaks, now it has 2 options. SRMs and NARC beacons... so 1 option...


No development team of any major game has ever or will ever make changes because of player "QQ." The most player complaints have ever done is focus developers' attention on a given issue - the devs then look at both internal testing and player demographic data to which we do not have access. When asked if they make changes simply because of complaints, every dev team from every game I have played have at one time outlined this process - which is really the only sane way to do it.

Yet, in every game I have also encountered the persistent urban legend that "players that [insert here] complained and the devs [insert change]!" The simple observation that, in order to believe this, you must discard the testimony of the only people privy to the development process (the devs) and dismiss them as both liars and gormless idiots invariably falls on deaf ears - but I'm going to point it out again anyway.

Edited by Void Angel, 05 February 2013 - 02:07 PM.


#182 Escef

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 8,530 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationNew England

Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:27 PM

View PostEl Death Smurf, on 05 February 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

dual ac20 builds most certainly have a BT president.


Really? Who is he? Or she, even? Or did you mean precedent?

#183 Remnant John

    Member

  • PipPip
  • 21 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania USA

Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:38 PM

I am a heavy AC20 cat pilot, it is my main mech, i've been piloting it since i got the game 4 months ago (it was the first mech i ever bought!) i can gurantee you it DEFINATELY has its drawbacks. its max speed (with 70 rounds, enough to last 1 match) is barely 43kph, if you can't get behind that, i really feel sorry for you. second of all, heat actually IS an issue at some times. not all the time, but it can become a nuisance on caustic valley. third of all, range. the ABSOLUTE maximum effective range of dual AC20s is 250m~ which is NOTHING. if you can't outrun me (at >43kph) to a distance of 250 meters, YOU are the bad pilot, not my 'OP mech'

#184 FromHell2k

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 734 posts
  • LocationGerm0ney

Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:40 PM

I'am way too lazy to read all 10 pages of this...
I pretty sure some already posted it: You can counter everything. For all those who are now thinking "QQ, but you're a 6PPC Stalker!!!1111einself!!" > I can screw you in my STK-5M (4MLas, 1LLas, 3 SRM6, 2 SRM2) even easier. Skill is the only thing that matters... If you can't handle it, think about how to counter it, and for gods mercy..Stop whineing about it.

#185 Stingz

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,159 posts
  • Location*SIGNAL LOST*

Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:57 PM

View PostRemnant John, on 05 February 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

I am a heavy AC20 cat pilot, it is my main mech, i've been piloting it since i got the game 4 months ago (it was the first mech i ever bought!) i can gurantee you it DEFINATELY has its drawbacks. its max speed (with 70 rounds, enough to last 1 match) is barely 43kph, if you can't get behind that, i really feel sorry for you. second of all, heat actually IS an issue at some times. not all the time, but it can become a nuisance on caustic valley. third of all, range. the ABSOLUTE maximum effective range of dual AC20s is 250m~ which is NOTHING. if you can't outrun me (at >43kph) to a distance of 250 meters, YOU are the bad pilot, not my 'OP mech'


Using 1 AC/20, STD 300, and DHS solves all those issues. By then you are using a heavier hunchback, with impossible to hit side-torsos.

AC/20 keeps flying out to 810m, still does a reasonable amount of damage past 270m.

Edited by Stingz, 07 February 2013 - 01:58 PM.


#186 audims

    Rookie

  • 2 posts

Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:06 PM

View PostHelmstif, on 02 February 2013 - 12:07 AM, said:

Oh and I forgot to mention, it's technically IMPOSSIBLE to get AROUND an Catapult. That thing has a head of an owl that turns to all sorts of creepy directions. Why the **** would they make a long-range support 'Mech turn like that?


they dont have the arms that swivel they just go up and down there for the increased torso twist makes up for the limeted range of arm movement

#187 Spot

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • Little Helper
  • Little Helper
  • 72 posts
  • LocationUSA

Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:20 PM

6SRM cat- take out its ears before your in range,
Gauss cat- use cover and aim for his hardpoints, gauss is easy to take out.
AC20 cat- Same deal use cover and stay at range.
6 PPC- they will overheat, then you kill them.

ANY OTHER BUILD. know your mech and learn how to aim for the jibbly bits. Come on people you have ALL the tools you need just be a better pilot. I have ran all of these builds and i have lost to all of these. Use your tactics.

#188 Shade4x

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Bridesmaid
  • 190 posts

Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:34 PM

View PostVoid Angel, on 05 February 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:


No development team of any major game has ever or will ever make changes because of player "QQ." The most player complaints have ever done is focus developers' attention on a given issue - the devs then look at both internal testing and player demographic data to which we do not have access. When asked if they make changes simply because of complaints, every dev team from every game I have played have at one time outlined this process - which is really the only sane way to do it.

Yet, in every game I have also encountered the persistent urban legend that "players that [insert here] complained and the devs [insert change]!" The simple observation that, in order to believe this, you must discard the testimony of the only people privy to the development process (the devs) and dismiss them as both liars and gormless idiots invariably falls on deaf ears - but I'm going to point it out again anyway.


I wouldn't say liars and gomless idiots, however if one side cry's warlocks are underpowered, and the average warlock user pays out $500 chances are that reguardless of the balance of the game, they will buff warlocks. Further more on subscription based games there was a very interesting article by PCGamer on how World of Warcraft intentionally invited flavor of the month (every month a new class was over powered while a differnt class sucked) to keep players around longer by starting new characters and purchasing extended subscriptions. I would agree with you if the dev's only cared about the game, and the game balance. They don't. They cannot litterly afford to. Thats why you see the raven 3L, Atlas DDC and 9M costing as much as a hero mech in MC. Thats why you see pretty baby going for 30 bucks cash. People complain and dev's change policy based on it. Otherwise the playerbase cry's that they are not listening to them.

#189 Goodstorm

    Rookie

  • Bad Company
  • 7 posts

Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:49 PM

so for some reason i read this and figured out that you could build to counter certain mechs but whats fun about that the only thing is with most of my favorite builds i can't do anything against these guys. lol not saying thats a problem just saying a guy who loves to use as many machineguns and flamers that I do just wouldn't have fun with the fact that he is dead before he ever gets closed to any one lol. huge flaw on my part I know but hey why can't i get extra armour to compensate lol for my lack of fire power. And please laugh at my expense.

#190 Void Angel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 7,583 posts
  • LocationParanoiaville

Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:29 PM

View PostShade4x, on 07 February 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

I wouldn't say liars and gomless idiots, however if one side cry's warlocks are underpowered, and the average warlock user pays out $500 chances are that reguardless of the balance of the game, they will buff warlocks. Further more on subscription based games there was a very interesting article by PCGamer on how World of Warcraft intentionally invited flavor of the month (every month a new class was over powered while a differnt class sucked) to keep players around longer by starting new characters and purchasing extended subscriptions. I would agree with you if the dev's only cared about the game, and the game balance. They don't. They cannot litterly afford to. Thats why you see the raven 3L, Atlas DDC and 9M costing as much as a hero mech in MC. Thats why you see pretty baby going for 30 bucks cash. People complain and dev's change policy based on it. Otherwise the playerbase cry's that they are not listening to them.

/sigh

What you're saying here is that, in order to keep a minority of players happy (Warlocks, for example,) a development team will buff something simply because people loudly demand that it be buffed. And tick off everyone else in the process. So now we're back to claiming the devs are gormless idiots. They really have to be in order for this idea to be right. There's no other way to characterize people who would (on the assumption that dissatisfied players mean lost money) make changes to satisfy a minority of players at the expense of ticking off everyone else. The devs would have to be too dang dumb to do basic math. If complaints from the one group threaten the profit margins, so does complaints from the other group - the larger one. You have to use your logic consistently to defend the idea - and if you do it falls apart.

Following the WoW illustration: Warlocks are an excellent example - when the game first came out, Warlocks were complaining a lot. And So they got buffed pretty heavily after the first several months of the game being released. Why? Well, because they complained, right? "It was all the complaints, and Blizzard caved! Warlocks cried and now I can't kill them any more!!!!!1one!" That nonsense was repeated ad nauseum by the credulous and chronically upset. But really, if you actually look at the devs' explanations and listen to what serious players who observed the game would tell you - the fact was that Warlocks were underpowered. Really underpowered - no, worse than that. So Blizzard looked at player demographics - who was playing Warlocks; what damage numbers were they putting up in raids; what was their prevalence on the winning team in Battlegrounds? They also did internal testing to see just what the problem was, and I'm sure they did look into player feedback. But in the end they made their decisions based on hard data, not some foolish assessment of a small corner of their player-base. No one but Warlocks were complaining, but the reaction to the buff was extreme - and yet Blizzard let Warlocks go for a long time without many changes. They simply attempted to tune other classes' interactions with Warlock abilities.

Also, the above decision-making process is one that devs from companies like Blizzard have themselves outlined on multiple occasions. It's pretty much the only sane way to do things, if you think about it, but regardless, it's also what the devs of games I've played tell players they do. So if they're buffing and nerfing based on some ill-considered fantasy about pandering to minority player populations for money - they have to be lying. So the claim really does require you believe the devs are liars as well as fools.

As for WoW deliberately rotating "overpowered" classes - I played that game for years, and I just don't see it. I couldn't find the PCGamer article that alleged it, so I suppose anything's possible, but even if they did that, it's STILL not making changes just because players complain. Mind you, one of my characters was a Shaman, so I saw a lot of controversy from the inside (don't get me started on the myth of Shaman invincibility in Vanilla WoW.) But when Blizzard made changes, it was due to demographic data and hard numbers rather than theorycrafting and complaints - which were often based on anecdotes that simply did not reflect the current state of the game.

Edited by Void Angel, 07 February 2013 - 06:42 PM.


#191 Alaskan Nobody

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Determined
  • The Determined
  • 10,358 posts
  • LocationAlaska!

Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:05 PM

My only opinion on the thought of ANY catapult being overpowered can be summed up as this:

Catapult is a mech designed to deliver massive amounts of firepower in a relatively short period of time.
At times that is very powerful.
At times it is not.
Other mechs manouver better -though the Catapult does have an impressive torso twist, it is only about average for left-right twisting, (counting most mech's armtwist) and below average for up-down.
Other mehs carry more armor.
Few carry more destructive firepower that were not designed to be - in essence - a larger Catapult.

TLDR: Catapult is a mech designed to cause MASSIVE DAMAGE!
Removing or gimping that ability would be like removing the invincishields from WoW's Paladins or the Dots from the warlock.

Edited by Shar Wolf, 08 February 2013 - 03:38 PM.


#192 Skadi

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,268 posts
  • LocationUtgarde Pinnacle

Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:23 PM

View PostBaronofBeanDip, on 02 February 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

Shoot the pods. Make fun of him after.

I did this to a particularly anoying forum poster, it was much fun untill we got bored of it and we cored him.

#193 Bagua

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 94 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 08 February 2013 - 03:46 AM

View PostDemoned, on 03 February 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

but as a support mech, the 4SP out shines most mechs, for me anyway.

Yes indeed.

#194 Aggravated Assault Mech

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Wrath
  • Wrath
  • 825 posts
  • Locationlocation location

Posted 08 February 2013 - 04:47 AM

Nothing really that OP about SRM boats anymore. Even a couple months ago, Catapults weren't nearly as OP as the SRM boat Awesomes. Catapult sacrifices too much to gain that firepower. SRM boat Awesome going 80kph or whatever it was capable of was an unholy force of destruction. Dunno if you can still do that ingame- just started playing again. Either way making SRMs fire in two salvos makes it a lot harder to execute.

Anyways.. Maybe let scouts do their job and don't facecheck the enemy team and you won't die to them so often. SRMs aren't instagibbing anyone past like 50-100m.

#195 Stingz

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,159 posts
  • Location*SIGNAL LOST*

Posted 08 February 2013 - 04:49 AM

View Postvnlk65n, on 08 February 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

Nothing really that OP about SRM boats anymore. Even a couple months ago, Catapults weren't nearly as OP as the SRM boat Awesomes. Catapult sacrifices too much to gain that firepower. SRM boat Awesome going 80kph or whatever it was capable of was an unholy force of destruction. Dunno if you can still do that ingame- just started playing again. Either way making SRMs fire in two salvos makes it a lot harder to execute.

Anyways.. Maybe let scouts do their job and don't facecheck the enemy team and you won't die to them so often. SRMs aren't instagibbing anyone past like 50-100m.


XL engine, DHS, Endo-Steel I sacrifice nothing really. The CT of the Catapult is gigantic, XL side-torsos aren't an issue.

Edited by Stingz, 08 February 2013 - 04:50 AM.


#196 Gammanoob

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 246 posts
  • LocationThe Periphery

Posted 08 February 2013 - 05:00 AM

If anything I would encourage more people to use AC20 and SRM Catapults.

The same goes for ECM, the best way to hopefully get the developers to look into anything appears to be to use it so often that they can't ignore it any more.

Edited by Gammanoob, 08 February 2013 - 05:00 AM.


#197 Tuku

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Grizzly
  • The Grizzly
  • 529 posts

Posted 08 February 2013 - 05:53 AM

I would like to ask you a question OP..... Lets say that you are in a competitive game and you happen across a way to improve your efficiency 3 fold at the cost of "drawbacks" and whats more the officials of the game say that it is completely within the parameters of the game. Would you not employ this new efficiency, even in the face of people who say it is wrong to use such a thing if it gives you an edge to win the game?

The fact of the matter is this. The AC20 cat has a few really big flaws and I will spell them out for you.

-There is ALWAYS ammo in the legs....Leg him and you have a chance of an ammo explosion that feeds over into CT.
-If he has lots of ammo or is going fast he has lower leg armor.
-He moves at about the speed of a stock atlas or maybe a bit faster....get behind him
-It is a catapult....aim for the last crossbar from the top of its cockpit....that is where the head is.
-It has no arm armor .... rip his arm off in one or two shots then core that side out to halve his firepower.
-You call out in chat that "C" is an AC20 Cat and I would imagine that most people in the area will cycle through their R targets to find the effer and take him down.


Now LIkewise the SRM6 Cat A bit tougher to crack because these are normally faster but still not unbeatable. the flaws.
-The arms are giant boxes, shoot at them
-Always ammo in the legs...legg them for possible ammo explosion feeding into CT
-usually low armor in the legs so easy to leg
-boom headshot see AC20 cat for why
-If you are faster than it you can usually out manuver it.
-You call out in chat that "C" is a SRM6 cat and I would imagine that most people in the area will cycle through their R targets to find the effer and take him down.

#198 TVMA Doc

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 342 posts
  • LocationThe People's Demokratik Socialist Republik of Kalifornistan

Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:23 AM

View PostCrawford, on 02 February 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

I'd hardly call it an "abusive" build...poor choice of words.

SRM boating may arguably be overpowered, but only in close range. Yes it sucks to turn a corner, bump into one and get your arm taken off instantly. Players will always flock to the most powerful combinations, that's the main reason I came to the forums - to look up and discuss builds.

and no I don't have an SRM cat, the variation I have is a K2 with gauss and ML's. Which is far from unbeatable...in fact the XL engine required to go a decent speed makes them pretty delicate. Not to mention trying to hit lights with ballistics.

I agree. These are a lot like my Atlas brawler build. AC20, 3 SSRMs and 2 ML can ruin your day at 200m. I've often had most/all of my armor scorched from 800m by long range weapons without ever having a chance to close to a range where I could do any significant harm.

Even as a brawler, I've had occasion to catch the 6 SSRM cat unaware while he was focused on getting into position for someone else. There isn't a lot of rear facing armor, and even with a great range of upper torso movement there's not much that can be done when you're caught off guard.

#199 Aggravated Assault Mech

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Wrath
  • Wrath
  • 825 posts
  • Locationlocation location

Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:37 PM

View PostStingz, on 08 February 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:


XL engine, DHS, Endo-Steel I sacrifice nothing really. The CT of the Catapult is gigantic, XL side-torsos aren't an issue.


You sacrifice armor by virtue of being a 65 ton chassis. SRM Catapult is not hard to pick apart at even medium range. Organized play might be different.

The Awesome could boat SRMs (or lasers for that matter), go 80kph+, and have full torso armor of an 80 ton mech. That was overpowered.

#200 Darwins Dog

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Philanthropist
  • Philanthropist
  • 1,476 posts

Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:35 AM

View Postaudims, on 07 February 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:


they dont have the arms that swivel they just go up and down there for the increased torso twist makes up for the limeted range of arm movement

The point that was being made (I believe) is that a long range fire support mech doesn't need to have the widest torso twist arc in the game. That's the part that diesn't make sense. The Catapult can cover a wider arc than some mechs that have fully actuated arms. By comparison, the Stalker has the smallest torso twist in the game, and yet has no arm reach. This makes the stalker a much less effective brawler, and a lot better at ranged fire support.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users