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So Why Do People Dislike The Clans?


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#201 Koshirou

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:27 PM

View PostStormwolf, on 19 March 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:


The Clans aren't much of a threat if they couldn't have conquered the IS storywise.

Anyway, this might be a interesting read for you:
http://bg.battletech...pic,9727.0.html

Not really, I've already read this thread in the past, have had several discussions of a similar vein and the bottom line remains: The BTU is broken, and a major re-imagining/reboot would be necessary to fix it.

But I'll take this opportunity to highlight one argument from this linked thread, because it has also popped up here...

Quote

Its important to keep in mind the Inner Sphere is basically a feudal system. Under such a system, a Lord has a solid incentive to keep his vassals from having a large army.

Feudalism doesn't work that way. It works, in fact, in exactly the opposite fashion: Vassals provide military service in exchange for the grant of land/economic resources from their lord and his support. Disarmed vassals would defeat the whole purpose. That's a super-simplified, distilled version, but it captures the gist of it.

#202 Wendigo Vendetta

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:55 PM

Before the Clans the Inner sphere was a combination of Game of Thrones and Dune in a Lost Tech Mecha Universe. It was very atmospheric and quite unlike almost any other sci-fi universe.

After the Clans, it was a constant game of rapid technological one-up-manship focussed on the threat from outside the known world... the "alien threat"... pretty much like virtually every sci-fi universe that has come and gone from the start.

The clan invasion transformed the BattleTech overarching plotline from unique and evocative to just another sci-fi universe clone with mecha. That is what the Clans did from a plotline perspective...

Now if your question is why people hate the Clans themselves, that is simpler.

They are racial supremacist, power worshipping, classist, eugenicist, fascist conquerors who find justification for their violence in a trumped-up mythologized history focussed on their "chosen" and "destined" status. They claim their dominance on the battlefield is based in their inherent status as superior beings, when in fact it is due to their compunctionless unprovoked use of vastly superior technology against unprepared opponents who are so outclassed as to be practically considdered unarmed.

In essence, space Nazies with better PR... and no one likes Nazies.

Edited by Wendigo Vendetta, 19 March 2013 - 01:02 PM.


#203 Uncle Totty

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:28 PM

View PostWendigo Vendetta, on 19 March 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

Before the Clans the Inner sphere was a combination of Game of Thrones and Dune in a Lost Tech Mecha Universe. It was very atmospheric and quite unlike almost any other sci-fi universe.

After the Clans, it was a constant game of rapid technological one-up-manship focussed on the threat from outside the known world... the "alien threat"... pretty much like virtually every sci-fi universe that has come and gone from the start.

The clan invasion transformed the BattleTech overarching plotline from unique and evocative to just another sci-fi universe clone with mecha. That is what the Clans did from a plotline perspective...

Now if your question is why people hate the Clans themselves, that is simpler.

They are racial supremacist, power worshipping, classist, eugenicist, fascist conquerors who find justification for their violence in a trumped-up mythologized history focussed on their "chosen" and "destined" status. They claim their dominance on the battlefield is based in their inherent status as superior beings, when in fact it is due to their compunctionless unprovoked use of vastly superior technology against unprepared opponents who are so outclassed as to be practically considdered unarmed.

In essence, space Nazies with better PR... and no one likes Nazies.

THIS is why I want a remake of Mechwarrior 2. :)

#204 Chiyeko Kuramochi

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:50 PM

From what I know to me it is simple:

Don't like clans who would like an invading force?

Do like their tech, only a fool turns down an advantage on the battlefield, so meh if I can get my hands one of the clans mechs I like, I use it, nothing better than to turn their own weapons against them I say.


Other than that, meh can't say I care to much :)

#205 Rozav

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 05:33 PM

It depends which Clan we're talking about. Ghost Bear are the pragmatists who I don't mind joining up with at all.

Plus... kodiak DFA... mmmm...

#206 Thorn Hallis

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 12:18 PM

View PostChiyeko Kuramochi, on 19 March 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Don't like clans who would like an invading force?


Stockholm syndrome.

#207 CG Oglethorpe Kerensky

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 01:16 PM

View PostSkylarr, on 18 March 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

:D Do they shoot him right there on the council floor, or, do they have Elementals rip him limb-from-limb, or, do they drag him outside then kill him?

No Trial?


It's worse than you think...
On paper it says that the Khan shares power with the council, the Khan can't directly interfere with Clan rules or society...that is the domain of the Council. The Khan is just in control of the clan military, nothing more.

Now taken at face value this appears to be a government with a clear separation of powers. But let's look at it critically shall we?
Everyone on the the Council has a Bloodname
Everyone who has a Boodname earned it through a Trial of Bloodwright.
Everyone who has passed a Trial of Bloodright is in the warrior caste

So...

Everyone on the Clan Council is under the command of the Khan.

All members of the Clan Council are at the disposal of the Khan. Imagine how hard it would be to keep "checks and balances" on a guy that can send you on a suicide mission at anytime for any reason. Did you vote against the Khan, well get ready you are goin to spearhead an attack against New Avalon with four other people the Khan wants gone. Oh you won't be needing Omnimechs for this operation...we have a few Mackies and Urbanmechs that would be perfect.

Think this is far fetched...Nicholas Kerensky did it to his own brother.

#208 Stormwolf

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 01:52 PM

View PostCG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 20 March 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

It's worse than you think...
On paper it says that the Khan shares power with the council, the Khan can't directly interfere with Clan rules or society...that is the domain of the Council. The Khan is just in control of the clan military, nothing more.

Now taken at face value this appears to be a government with a clear separation of powers. But let's look at it critically shall we?
Everyone on the the Council has a Bloodname
Everyone who has a Boodname earned it through a Trial of Bloodwright.
Everyone who has passed a Trial of Bloodright is in the warrior caste

So...

Everyone on the Clan Council is under the command of the Khan.

All members of the Clan Council are at the disposal of the Khan. Imagine how hard it would be to keep "checks and balances" on a guy that can send you on a suicide mission at anytime for any reason. Did you vote against the Khan, well get ready you are goin to spearhead an attack against New Avalon with four other people the Khan wants gone. Oh you won't be needing Omnimechs for this operation...we have a few Mackies and Urbanmechs that would be perfect.


Anybody on the council can always trial against a Khan and kill him in a fight. Vlad Ward got a ton of trials after he became roommates with Katherine Steiner-Davion. But luckily he had good plot shields.

Quote

Think this is far fetched...Nicholas Kerensky did it to his own brother.


No he didn't, Andery and Nicholas were pretty close after their father died.

#209 Wales Grey

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 02:34 PM

View PostWendigo Vendetta, on 19 March 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

In essence, space Nazies with better PR... and no one likes Nazies.

Calling the Clans "Nazis" is inaccurate, as they are not members of the National Socialist Party, nor do they adhere to the ideology that defines Nazism. Their society does exhibit all the traits associated with hard right-wing authoritarianism, also known as Facism. (The Nazis were a fascist movement, as was Mussolini in Italy and the Japanese government in the 1930s-1940s.)

I'm sure I've posted in this topic, or one similar to it, that I don't like the Clans. Their society, caste-based and ruled by a military junta, is repulsive in its abuses and idolization of war as the pinnacle of human achievement. Such malignancy can be fully laid at the feet of the founder of their society, Nicolas Kerensky. He put the military at the pinnacle of Clan society to cement his power base. He declared himself supreme executive for life, a position known as the ilKhan. He lead purges of "rebels" at the behest of his father when the Clans were still the SLDF-in-Exile. He was an egomaniac, and is described by source materials as having a messiah complex.

I dislike the Clans for game-mechanic reasons as well. The Clans, as written by FASA in the 3040-3055 period, do not seem to have been designed for use as a "player faction". Their superior equipment, combined with their elite pilots and obsession with "honour" to the point of idiocy, function extremely well as supremely dangerous, but flawed antagonists for a GM looking to present his or her players with a decidedly unique challenge for the time period. Operation Bulldog reads like a campaign from some tabletop role-playing game, culminating in storming the villain's lair and dashing his plans for world domination. The Invading Clans fit the role of "GM-run antagonists" during the Clan Invasion period in much the same way theWord of Blake's Shadow Divisions fit that role during the Jihad time-frame. Ultimately, the Clans seem to have been written in an identical role to the Klingons in Star Trek: a frequently antagonistic and alien group that is extremely skilled in combat and run by a society that is repulsive to modern sensibilities and ethics, yet still manage to retain some sympathetic elements so they don't cross the line into outright villainy. Unless the plot demands it. (See: Clan Smoke Jaguar.)

Spoiler


I can't say that I'm surprised that people 'like' the Clans, as it's plainly apparent that people are capable of 'liking' actual horrible regressive groups in today's world like the EDL in Britain, the Golden Dawn in Italy, the various flavors of Crypto-Nazism and white power movements, and the FRC in the United States. Fictitious flavors of fascism and other regressive social movements tend to attract fanbases, such as The Drakka, GOR, Enemies Foreign and Domestic and a whole host of other poorly-written explorations of just how close people can come to fan-boying outright racism and all but saying "white power". The Clans are just another, admittedly less vile, permutation of fascist fantasies.

edit:

View PostStormwolf, on 20 March 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

No he didn't, Andery and Nicholas were pretty close after their father died.

Erm, no. Operation Klondike and the old Clan sourcebook paint a radically different picture.

double edit:
Their suspicions surrounding Andrey's death was one of the motivating factors for Clan Wolverine actively defying Nicolas and telling him to his face in the Grand Council that he was only interested in control, which lead to Nicolas throwing a hissy fit and demanding their annihilation.

Edited by Wales Grey, 20 March 2013 - 02:41 PM.


#210 CG Oglethorpe Kerensky

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 03:01 PM

View PostStormwolf, on 20 March 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:


Anybody on the council can always trial against a Khan and kill him in a fight. Vlad Ward got a ton of trials after he became roommates with Katherine Steiner-Davion. But luckily he had good plot shields.


And what Trials can they call?
A Trial of Refusal can be called only after a failed vote, sending someone off to die on a horribly planned raid isn't going to require a vote.

A Trial of Grievance could be called, but the Khan can put it on ice at his discretion. He could simply put it on hold until after you get back from your raid on New Avalon because that is very important.

If challenged directly the Khan gets to choose the nature of combat, putting the challenger at an immediate disadvantage.

Quote

No he didn't, Andery and Nicholas were pretty close after their father died.


As Wales pointed out, this was not the case. Andery was the one of the few that was willing to stand up to Nicholas and his crazy ideas. Another of his critics was Sarah McEvedy of Clan Wolverine who openly suspected Nicholas had a role in his brother's death, two years later Clan Wolverine was Annihilated.
Amazing how everyone that opposed Nicholas ended up dead..

#211 Uncle Totty

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 03:20 PM

View PostWales Grey, on 20 March 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

Calling the Clans "Nazis" is inaccurate, as they are not members of the National Socialist Party, nor do they adhere to the ideology that defines Nazism. Their society does exhibit all the traits associated with hard right-wing authoritarianism, also known as Facism. (The Nazis were a fascist movement, as was Mussolini in Italy and the Japanese government in the 1930s-1940s.)

I'm sure I've posted in this topic, or one similar to it, that I don't like the Clans. Their society, caste-based and ruled by a military junta, is repulsive in its abuses and idolization of war as the pinnacle of human achievement. Such malignancy can be fully laid at the feet of the founder of their society, Nicolas Kerensky. He put the military at the pinnacle of Clan society to cement his power base. He declared himself supreme executive for life, a position known as the ilKhan. He lead purges of "rebels" at the behest of his father when the Clans were still the SLDF-in-Exile. He was an egomaniac, and is described by source materials as having a messiah complex.

I dislike the Clans for game-mechanic reasons as well. The Clans, as written by FASA in the 3040-3055 period, do not seem to have been designed for use as a "player faction". Their superior equipment, combined with their elite pilots and obsession with "honour" to the point of idiocy, function extremely well as supremely dangerous, but flawed antagonists for a GM looking to present his or her players with a decidedly unique challenge for the time period. Operation Bulldog reads like a campaign from some tabletop role-playing game, culminating in storming the villain's lair and dashing his plans for world domination. The Invading Clans fit the role of "GM-run antagonists" during the Clan Invasion period in much the same way theWord of Blake's Shadow Divisions fit that role during the Jihad time-frame. Ultimately, the Clans seem to have been written in an identical role to the Klingons in Star Trek: a frequently antagonistic and alien group that is extremely skilled in combat and run by a society that is repulsive to modern sensibilities and ethics, yet still manage to retain some sympathetic elements so they don't cross the line into outright villainy. Unless the plot demands it. (See: Clan Smoke Jaguar.)

Spoiler


I can't say that I'm surprised that people 'like' the Clans, as it's plainly apparent that people are capable of 'liking' actual horrible regressive groups in today's world like the EDL in Britain, the Golden Dawn in Italy, the various flavors of Crypto-Nazism and white power movements, and the FRC in the United States. Fictitious flavors of fascism and other regressive social movements tend to attract fanbases, such as The Drakka, GOR, Enemies Foreign and Domestic and a whole host of other poorly-written explorations of just how close people can come to fan-boying outright racism and all but saying "white power". The Clans are just another, admittedly less vile, permutation of fascist fantasies.

edit:

Erm, no. Operation Klondike and the old Clan sourcebook paint a radically different picture.

double edit:
Their suspicions surrounding Andrey's death was one of the motivating factors for Clan Wolverine actively defying Nicolas and telling him to his face in the Grand Council that he was only interested in control, which lead to Nicolas throwing a hissy fit and demanding their annihilation.

Sorry for liking a would be good guy with a dark past. :)

#212 Wales Grey

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 03:42 PM

View PostNathan K, on 20 March 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

Sorry for liking a would be good guy with a dark past. :)

Nicolas Kerensky, at no point in his lifetime, could ever be unironically described as "a good guy with a dark past". Someone already did the **** comparison, so I think I can describe your reply here as: "Big deal, Adolf ******'s policies got a bunch of people killed and resulted in the systemic oppression of millions, he only did it because he was actually a good guy with Germany's best interests at heart."

#213 Kaio-Kerensky x10

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 03:50 PM

It's telling that the most recent Clan storyline in tabletop Battletech is the Clans flipping out because someone objected to them exterminating everyone related to various bloodlines because some members of those bloodlines were on the outs politically. They even call it "Reaving" and kick it off by assassinating a Clan leader at council, it's not even a little sympathetic.

Edited by Zharot, 20 March 2013 - 04:08 PM.


#214 Rozav

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 04:18 PM

Kerensky basically wanted to save as much of the men and women under his command from the rabid fighting the houses were itching for.

He doesn't have a dark past, he avenged the Star League after Amaris killed the last 1st Lord.

Shoot I would've joined up with him instead of hanging around. The 1st succession war was just a full on Nuke Fest that wiped out billions of lives. None of the houses are blameless on that one.

#215 Koshirou

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 04:19 PM

I think the low point in BattleTech publishing history is the Mechwarrior RPG adventure "Bloodright", where the PCs were supposed to be Clanners on a mission to murder all the Inner Sphere relatives to an excised/cursed Wolverine bloodname.

#216 Wales Grey

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 04:22 PM

View PostRozav, on 20 March 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

Kerensky basically wanted to save as much of the men and women under his command from the rabid fighting the houses were itching for.

He doesn't have a dark past, he avenged the Star League after Amaris killed the last 1st Lord.

Shoot I would've joined up with him instead of hanging around. The 1st succession war was just a full on Nuke Fest that wiped out billions of lives. None of the houses are blameless on that one.

http://bg.battletech...71.html#msg1071

#217 Kaio-Kerensky x10

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 04:25 PM

View PostRozav, on 20 March 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

Kerensky basically wanted to save as much of the men and women under his command from the rabid fighting the houses were itching for.


There are two Kerenskys. There's Alexsandr, who led the SLDF out of the Inner Sphere and died when the fighting he was trying to escape followed him. You can almost see Alexsandr sympathetically, although there's a decent case to be made that he was knowingly leading the SLDF to their death. Then there's Nicholas, who is basically Hannibal by way of Vlad the Impaler.

#218 Rozav

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 04:26 PM

View PostWales Grey, on 20 March 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:



Yeah he's human, but what would you do in his shoes? You know the 5 houses all want to rip each other apart. There's no pure saints or white knights, not even the mary sue davions.

It was an eject button, that was it.

Also, he might've cancelled his OnStar sub and gotten lost, but didn't want to tell anyone. Guys are stupid like that.

#219 Wales Grey

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 04:29 PM

View PostZharot, on 20 March 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

There are two Kerenskys. There's Alexsandr, who led the SLDF out of the Inner Sphere and died when the fighting he was trying to escape followed him. You can almost see Alexsandr sympathetically, although there's a decent case to be made that he was knowingly leading the SLDF to their death. Then there's Nicholas, who is basically Hannibal by way of Vlad the Impaler.

Actually, there's a third, Andery. By all accounts he was a pretty nice guy, and is the one who started the whole "Trial of Position" thing (admittedly by accident), but he died in mysterious circumstances, and his brother used his death to push for HONOURE DUELES, a practice which favored him and further entrenched the warrior caste as a military junta.

Edit:

View PostRozav, on 20 March 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:


Yeah he's human, but what would you do in his shoes? You know the 5 houses all want to rip each other apart. There's no pure saints or white knights, not even the mary sue davions.

It was an eject button, that was it.

The Star League was a bloated, corrupt, and violent thing. Kerensky could have stayed, and at least tried to do something. He chose to take his ball and go home, rather than even attempt to help anyone. The SLDF was, even after the coup, the most dangerous fighting force in the sphere. He could have gone COMSTAR, and told anyone that if they stepped out of line, he'd see them dead, or some other helpful thing. He had his chance to step up and take the wind out of the coming war, but he chose to run. Devlin Stone was able to pull off some awesome negotiating for the RotS, why couldn't Kerensky do the same?

The answer is because PLOT. I don't mind that, and I think it's perfectly in character for him to be tired of war and just want to run away. Acting like he made some heroic and noble decision is, in my opinion, hopelessly naive. Besides, I wasn't talking about Alexander Kerensky. I was talking about his son, Nicolas.

Edited by Wales Grey, 20 March 2013 - 04:40 PM.


#220 Kaio-Kerensky x10

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 04:34 PM

View PostWales Grey, on 20 March 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:


Actually, there's a third, Andery. By all accounts he was a pretty nice guy, and is the one who started the whole "Trial of Position" thing (admittedly by accident), but he died in mysterious circumstances, and his brother used his death to push for HONOURE DUELES, a practice which favored him and further entrenched the warrior caste as a military junta.


Yeah but he isn't mentioned as much.

(Chiefly because his brother was some sort of controlling dictator who put a strong emphasis on mutable oral histories that could be changed to suit his narrative instead of keeping any sort of track of the historical record.)





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