805 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

Void Angel, on 16 August 2025 - 02:20 PM, said:

There's not a lot of historical evidence that the ancient Hebrews strictly practiced the Year of Jubilee, I'm told, but I haven't sourced that.

For the Clans, outright slavery isn't in their wheelhouse - or any of the Inner Sphere factions, for that matter. Pirates might do it, but it's not an issue for civilized space - or the Clan homeworlds. =]

An argument could be made loosely (give some sway here for the sake of the discussion) that the Clans basically enslave Free Births and most war prisoners (bondsmen) end up doing slave labor... Within a certain view point of things. I mean, they aren't being paid for these services most times, and rarely do they actually have a choice to say "no"...

[Void Angel]

The freebirths are an underclass, but not slaves any more than anyone else in Clan society. Even a Bondsman isn't a slave; it's indentured servitude, which is a meaningful distinction. It can still be a human rights violation, although within Clan culture it's a safety valve to prevent unnecessary deaths and deal with civilians who are captured during a Trial. Even so, Clans like the Smoke Jaguars are notably brutal and generally just use bondsmen as forced labor.

[Tesunie]

Void Angel, on 16 August 2025 - 08:57 PM, said:

The freebirths are an underclass, but not slaves any more than anyone else in Clan society. Even a Bondsman isn't a slave; it's indentured servitude, which is a meaningful distinction. It can still be a human rights violation, although within Clan culture it's a safety valve to prevent unnecessary deaths and deal with civilians who are captured during a Trial. Even so, Clans like the Smoke Jaguars are notably brutal and generally just use bondsmen as forced labor.

Yet, a bondsmen from the IS (freebirth) in some clans might never be freed from the "indentured servitude", forever being a servant to those that claimed them...

I recall Clan Civilians operate a little differently, as mentioned in Twilight of the Clans novel series, but I'd have to look it up to find out.

And do recall, I did say a case could be made... But I feel you understood the assignment and roughly what I was hinting at.

I think Liao would be the only other one that might treat people like a slave caste? Not sure, but I do know they are more controlling than other houses, as almost operating as a police state... But then again a communist state dictating what is going to be done within their boarders is completely unheard of, right?

[Jaroth Corbett]

Tesunie, on 16 August 2025 - 04:59 PM, said:

An argument could be made loosely (give some sway here for the sake of the discussion) that the Clans basically enslave Free Births and most war prisoners (bondsmen) end up doing slave labor... Within a certain view point of things. I mean, they aren't being paid for these services most times, and rarely do they actually have a choice to say "no"...

According to TCWoK:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 17 August 2025 - 08:50 AM.

[Tesunie]

Jaroth Corbett, on 17 August 2025 - 08:50 AM, said:

According to TCWoK:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Your own source says "is not regarded as slaves", as in, not to the clans. They are seen as "indentured servants". From one clan to another, this is a social contract that they each agreed to.

To the IS, it could be seen as a form of slavery, especially if they (members of the IS captured) have no way to escape such a situation. They are forced into it, with little to no hope of advancement or escape, and they are provided food, shelter and clothing, but are otherwise not compensated for their work. Loosely speaking, that was also an excused used to keep slaves as slaves in real life...

So, as I said, arguments could be used to loosely connect some Clan behaviors as making people into slaves at worse, 2nd class citizens at best... And considering we've also determined it's morally wrong to make a class of people 2nd class citizens (segregation, "separate but equal" did not work because they were never equal anyway, but that is besides the point), it's another strike against the clans, especially for IS people's who do not have the social contract to obey such a system to start with and suddenly being expected to and forced into compliance (and then typically made from a full citizen with expected rights and expected ways to be treated, suddenly becoming 2nd class citizens or worse and being treated as such).


And do realize, I'm playing a little loose with some of these rules and definitions, as well as playing a little bit of "devil's advocate" here.

[Void Angel]

Well, there's a reason that things like indentured servitude (or debt peonage, etc,) are listed as human rights abuses. But it is a distinct institution from chattel slavery. The Clans' system of indenture - even the Smoke Jaguar's "free labor" practices - falls short of chattel slavery, particularly in the Clans' draconian command economy system. In essence, whoever holds an indenture owns a person's labor, and may even have the right to inflict punishments in order to compel that labor - but in chattel slavery they own the person, and it's a much different situation.