805 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

Nothing that I said implied anything you just said. Weren't you just trying - unsuccessfully - to accuse me of putting words in your mouth? Yet that's just what you're doing - and showcasing your own bad logic in the process. It's literally crazy: Ooooh, Minoru Kurita didn't try to stop basically the entire SLDF from leaving! Now the entire Inner Sphere is responsible for the Clan Invasion - they brought it on themselves! Comstar helped Kerensky conceal the move until it was underway? Aha! The smoking gun - Comstar is now responsible for everything the Clans ever did!

This is infantile logic that should embarrass anyone over the age of three. Just because you left your room to avoid your brothers fighting over the toys, you don't get to come back centuries later and beat them all up to take over the play room. Nobody is complicit in the Clans becoming the fascist aggressors who invaded the Inner Sphere, except the Clans. They had centuries to make something of themselves other than fascist space Mongols, and they chose not to do so. Blaming everything they did on the turmoil of the Inner Sphere and the greed of its leaders is nothing more than moral cowardice

[Jep Jorgensson]

"So Why Do People Dislike The Clans?"

I think the answer will depend on how they were personally introduced to each individual. For example:

1. When the Clans first came out on the tabletop, the BT rules at the time still stated that there were suppose to be an even number of mechs--typically one from each weight class--on both sides (you can imagine how well that went even though the creators clearly did not) so with the numbers and weight being even, the more powerful Clan mechs typically steamrolled the IS mechs. The way they were introduced spoiled the game so badly for a lot of players and drove them from the game.

2. Thanks to the uneven gameplay--mentioned above--a number of a--holes saw the Clans as an easy way to dominate the others players without needing to get good and went to town, further spoiling the game for many others.
In fact, I remember reading in this forum many years ago--so I may not recall everything perfectly--about a guy that once played in a recreation of the Battle of Luthien at a convention and the guys running it were a professional team of buddies playing as Smoke Jaguar and lent some IS mechs with data sheets to anyone willing to play against them. Thing was however, it was a setup. Some of those IS datasheets had variants that were from 3025, in other words, comparatively less powerful IS mechs that were also outdated to boot. The guys playing Smoke Jaguar were just trying to pad their win-loss records and so recruited a bunch of rando's with--in some cases--outdated mech variants. Unfortunately for them however, the poster figured it out and turned the tables on them and eventually beat them.

3. MWO basically dropped the ball and introduced the Clans the exact same way the tabletop did--some people never learn--and again, the results were obviously predictable. The IS got steamrolled, people ragequitted, etc.

4. Despite every single faction being various shades of grey in the lore, the Clans were used as the defacto "Invading Aliens" with the IS heroically setting aside their differences to come together and defeat their common foe--which is of course total and complete BS. The IS was still very much fragmented in many ways. The hero of the Clan Invasion, Victor Steiner-Davion, while he was off fighting the clans, his own sister, Katherine, was busy laying the groundwork to start the FedCom Civil War right after he came back from the war (not sure how many people died during this new war, but I imagine the number was not low).

5. Some people make hay out of how harsh Clan society can be but compared to the rest of the IS, it is not that bad--and I am not even talking about the nightmare police-state Capellans. Furthermore, unlike IS'ers--that do it on the regular--the Clans do not target cities or civilians, nor do they lay waste to entire regions or planets. They fight other warriors in the open and do not involve civilians--like terrorist attacks, sabotage, pretty much anything cloak and dagger, etc.

6. Some also like to point at everything that happened in the War of Reaving as an example of how deranged the Clans are, but I look at that as an example of bad writing (maybe not as good of an example as the Dark Age was much less the novel Dominions Divided (complete clusterf@ck), but I digress). Clansmen digging up and throwing nukes around like it is the 4th of July? I think not. Besides, have you ever looked into the 1st or 2nd Succession Wars? Nothing else even comes close to those in all of history.

Check this guy out and you will see what I mean.

So there is my two cents, feel free to look anything I said up.

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 04 August 2025 - 11:19 PM.

[Bixente Vega]

The most sickening aspect of Clan culture is that people are genetically engineered to fit their combat roles (aerospace fighters have an enlarged craneum to acommodate a larger brain, elementals are hypertrophied hunks of muscle). Also, mechwarriors have no reproductive rights, they get to pass down their genetic material to the next generation if and only if they suceed on the battlefield.
Can at least ordinary clanners raise their families in peace? On second thought, is there such a thing as "ordinary clanners" -hairdressers, chefs, customer service staff, pet store owners, aspiring folk singers, etc.- in a society that revolves so heavily
around war?

[Void Angel]

Bixente Vega, on 05 August 2025 - 12:08 PM, said:

The most sickening aspect of Clan culture is that people are genetically engineered to fit their combat roles (aerospace fighters have an enlarged craneum to acommodate a larger brain, elementals are hypertrophied hunks of muscle). Also, mechwarriors have no reproductive rights, they get to pass down their genetic material to the next generation if and only if they suceed on the battlefield.
Can at least ordinary clanners raise their families in peace? On second thought, is there such a thing as "ordinary clanners" -hairdressers, chefs, customer service staff, pet store owners, aspiring folk singers, etc.- in a society that revolves so heavily
around war?

Sure there is! They're members of the Merchant and Laborer Castes. Clan culture does have artists and service personnel, but I think you're correct to assume that the entertainment and beauty products sectors in Clan economics are much smaller than in the Inner Sphere. Generally the Clans are interested in art only within a limited scope - generally their mythologized (falsified) past - and focused on aggrandizing the Clans.

MechWarriors in the Clans also can still reproduce at will, just like everyone else - and just like everyone else, their offspring will be second-class citizens, unless and until they can prove themselves to be better than (not equal to) their "true"-born betters.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Bixente Vega, on 05 August 2025 - 12:08 PM, said:

The most sickening aspect of Clan culture is that people are genetically engineered to fit their combat roles (aerospace fighters have an enlarged craneum to acommodate a larger brain, elementals are hypertrophied hunks of muscle). Also, mechwarriors have no reproductive rights, they get to pass down their genetic material to the next generation if and only if they suceed on the battlefield.

Everything in the Clans must be EARNED. So becoming a warrior is won through the Trial of Position, getting a certain rank is also done the same way. Earning your Bloodname is won in a Trial of Bloodright and distinguishing yourself on the battlefield means your DNA will be used to create the future of the Clan. So yes success is rewarded, failure is not.

Bixente Vega, on 05 August 2025 - 12:08 PM, said:

Can at least ordinary clanners raise their families in peace? On second thought, is there such a thing as "ordinary clanners" -hairdressers, chefs, customer service staff, pet store owners, aspiring folk singers, etc.- in a society that revolves so heavily
around war?

The warrior caste is only one of five. There are regular members of a Clan that performs all those functions. People do raise families . People come together either through mandatory marriages or regular means but within regulations. The arts are a huge part of the Clans as well. They have holidays and festivals, they enjoy sports and games just like people in the Inner Sphere.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 06 August 2025 - 08:19 AM.

[KursedVixen]

Jaroth Corbett, on 05 August 2025 - 03:57 PM, said:

Everything in the Clans must be EARNED. So becoming a warrior is won through the Trial of Position, getting a certain rank is also done the same way. Earning your Bloodname is won in a Trial off Bloodright and distinguishing yourself on the battlefield means your DNA will be used to create the future of the Clan. So yes success is rewarded, failure is not.



The warrior caste is only one of five. There are regular members of a Clan that performs all those functions. People do raise families . People come together either through mandatory marriages or regular means but within regulations. The arts are a huge part of the Clans as well. They have holidays and festivals, they enjoy sports and games just like people in the Inner Sphere.

one of the biggest proponents for family are clan Ghost bear.

Bixente Vega, on 05 August 2025 - 12:08 PM, said:

The most sickening aspect of Clan culture is that people are genetically engineered to fit their combat roles (aerospace fighters have an enlarged craneum to acommodate a larger brain, elementals are hypertrophied hunks of muscle). Also, mechwarriors have no reproductive rights, they get to pass down their genetic material to the next generation if and only if they suceed on the battlefield.
Can at least ordinary clanners raise their families in peace? On second thought, is there such a thing as "ordinary clanners" -hairdressers, chefs, customer service staff, pet store owners, aspiring folk singers, etc.- in a society that revolves so heavily
around war?

Canopian Cat girls.
Adeptus Astartes- Warhammer 40K
Spartans- Halo (worst of all Spartan-II's)
Dr. Juilian Bashir - Star Trek
Clone Troopers, and the Kaminoans- Star wars.

I don't see how you can find clan trueborns sickening if you don't find the rest of these sickening.

In the civilian caste normal families exist it's only in the warrior caste that they typically don't reproduce through fully natural means.

Reproductive rights? Ahh yes the primal urge to have sex and Eff a partner.... I'm sure that's on the minds of people who want to survive on the inhospitable worlds of the clans...

Edited by KursedVixen, 05 August 2025 - 07:16 PM.

[Void Angel]

KursedVixen, on 05 August 2025 - 07:05 PM, said:

Reproductive rights? Ahh yes the primal urge to have sex and Eff a partner.... I'm sure that's on the minds of people who want to survive on the inhospitable worlds of the clans...

It actually is, which is why they have enough "freeborn" to constitute an underclass.

[Jep Jorgensson]

Bixente Vega, on 05 August 2025 - 12:08 PM, said:

The most sickening aspect of Clan culture is that people are genetically engineered to fit their combat roles (aerospace fighters have an enlarged craneum to acommodate a larger brain, elementals are hypertrophied hunks of muscle). Also, mechwarriors have no reproductive rights, they get to pass down their genetic material to the next generation if and only if they suceed on the battlefield.
Can at least ordinary clanners raise their families in peace? On second thought, is there such a thing as "ordinary clanners" -hairdressers, chefs, customer service staff, pet store owners, aspiring folk singers, etc.- in a society that revolves so heavily
around war?

Somebody is ill-informed.

Aside from what others have already pointed out, have you ever heard of the Ghost Bear/Rasalhague Dominion? The people there have it better than anywhere else in the IS (unless you want to make an argument for Canopion cat girls).

So try be better informed next time.

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 06 August 2025 - 03:59 PM.

[Void Angel]

Ghost Bear Dominion is later than the Clan Invasion; they're also an amalgamation of Clan culture that could be argued to be different from the mainstream Clans. The homeworld Clans would agree, at least.. So "the Clans" is under-specified if you're including later eras. The reasons under discussion in this thread have been with the invasion era and its immediate aftermath.

[KursedVixen]

Void Angel, on 06 August 2025 - 04:33 PM, said:

Ghost Bear Dominion is later than the Clan Invasion; they're also an amalgamation of Clan culture that could be argued to be different from the mainstream Clans. The homeworld Clans would agree, at least.. So "the Clans" is under-specified if you're including later eras. The reasons under discussion in this thread have been with the invasion era and its immediate aftermath.

All invader clans were considered Tainted after the Great Refusual... Though Ghost Bear was probably the first to make a home for themselves in the Sphere.

[Tesunie]

Jep Jorgensson, on 04 August 2025 - 02:40 AM, said:

5. Some people make hay out of how harsh Clan society can be but compared to the rest of the IS, it is not that bad--and I am not even talking about the nightmare police-state Capellans. Furthermore, unlike IS'ers--that do it on the regular--the Clans do not target cities or civilians, nor do they lay waste to entire regions or planets. They fight other warriors in the open and do not involve civilians--like terrorist attacks, sabotage, pretty much anything cloak and dagger, etc.

Someone may want to look a little deeper on this one... like Turtle Bay... and other incidents that the clans did against civilians. Did they do it often? No. But the clans were not as blameless as you make them sound.

Otherwise, your other points seem rather spot on to why many people "hate the clans". I think most of us hate them due to the improved tech that unbalances things. Their tech might be a little "too good".

As a side note, the creators of the game/lore regrets introducing the clans they way they did. It'd been said somewhere that, if they were to go back and redo it all, they would still have the clans, but their tech would not be nearly as powerful as it ended up being. I'd have to agree with that step.

(FYI: I do not hate the clans, but I do like the IS more between the two.)
I would also mention, many of the houses were actually fine to live in, minus the police states. Steiner, Davion, Combine, Marik where considered to be good places to typically live. And after the original succession wars (version 1 and 2 primarily), a lot of civilian structure attacks were basically banned. I mean, it was basically an interstellar crime to destroy a jump ship (baring some crazy situations), and most factories.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

I personally am FINE with the fact that the Battletech universe is largely ruled by Space A$$holes because it makes a degree of sense and it introduces intrigues and conflicts that keep a storyline going. It produces gray heroes and villains alike for the most part aside from some utterly irredeemable people. It is important to acknowledge that the path the Clans took is important for story purposes and it makes characters like Ulric more interesting. Battletech is full of incredible ironies and highlights many of the follies of humanity that lead to conflict, great nations crumbling, alliances fragmenting etc.

That's the point.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Tesunie, on 07 August 2025 - 01:51 PM, said:

Someone may want to look a little deeper on this one... like Turtle Bay... and other incidents that the clans did against civilians. Did they do it often? No. But the clans were not as blameless as you make them sound.

Hey Tesunie. Good to see you're still around. Turtle Bay was an isolated incident. Galaxy Commander Perez was immediately reprimanded, even IlKhan Showers was mad about it. Clan Wolf bid away all their warships for the remaining duration of the invasion and the other Clans followed suit in solidarity.

Tesunie, on 07 August 2025 - 01:51 PM, said:

I would also mention, many of the houses were actually fine to live in, minus the police states. Steiner, Davion, Combine, Marik where considered to be good places to typically live.

Actually it wasn't fine to live in. I mentioned a couple of massacres. I'll repost here so you don't to go scrolling all the way back.

The Kentares and Tintavel Massacres:

Quote

What followed remains a stain upon the Dragon’s honor and history and should never be forgotten, if only as a lesson in what the madness of power can bring upon a man and a nation.



Jinjiro was on Franklin when he was informed of the Coordinator’s death. Upon his arrival at Kentares, the new Coordinator ordered his troops to kill every living soul upon the planet. To defy the order was a death sentence. During the following five months, Kuritan units on Kentares dispersed across the planet and began the systematic killing. The mass executions were accomplished by rounding up as many as possible in the cities, then using ’Mechs and vehicles to hunt down the rest.

Handbook House Kurita page 41

Quote

In 2412, the Free Worlds League launched an attack on the Capellan world of Tintavel. In one of the greatest tragedies of history, poorly worded orders and vague rules of engagement led to the death of thousands of civilians as battles tore through the planet’s major cities. The conflict continued to escalate until both sides employed nuclear and chemical weapons to destroy one another. Over three hundred thousand people were killed or injured—most of them non-combatants. Even after the nations’ leaders had personally called an end to the fighting, the damage was done. Tintavel was abandoned within a few years.

Era Digest - Age of War Page 5.

I mentioned how the Outworlds Alliance was formed due to Davion war-mongering. The IS had it's problems and was no picnic to live in there.

[Tesunie]

Jaroth Corbett, on 07 August 2025 - 06:49 PM, said:

Actually it wasn't fine to live in. I mentioned a couple of massacres. I'll repost here so you don't to go scrolling all the way back.

The Kentares and Tintavel Massacres:

Clans also had their massacres too. However, most of the time the IS wasn't one massacre after another. Davion had a lot of personal freedoms for their citizens, as well as some of the highest education and medical systems. Marik had a far more free market than most other houses, granting the ability for growth, as well as a democratic system (when it decided to work that is). Each of the houses had redeeming factors within them, as well as their problems too. Except Liao. Screw them, unless you are part of St. Ives. (I joke a bit here.)

The clans had their own problems, despite a reduction of waste and a tendency to not harm innocent non-coms, they were often repressive to the point where everyone had to follow whatever the warrior caste said. Personal freedoms where often repressed, and there was racist tendencies throughout (freebirths).

But that is BT. No one faction are pure and good. Everyone has problems. Everyone has evils, and good, within. Each faction brings a different thing to the table, and shows a different aspect of humanity.


Story wise, the Clans brought a lot to the table. Game play wise, it was a mess to give them such advanced tech over the IS. A little advanced would have been fine, but being so advanced created a lot of game play problems that could be addressed in lore, but not in game so easily. This, as the topic stated, generated a lot of hate for the Clans from a lot of people.

[Jaroth Corbett]

And that's an understandable position to take. Most people, the last time this thread was active shared your view it mostly screwed things up for the TT people who played BT.

When the thread got necrod the consensus by Void Stillcoward, uzi and the other one (letters and numbers who cares) is that the Clans just attacked the IS for no reason and the Inner Sphere was the epitome of peace and prosperity and everyone was getting along singing kumbaya and there was no aggression. When they went to Sarna to back up their position, I went straight to the sourcebooks to back up my points and Void Stilcoward couldn't handle it and ignored me and I think one of the others did as well. They put their heads in the sand instead of making better arguments. They got mad at me like I was the one who wrote the books. I have a feeling these guys would tell George Lucas he's wrong about Star Wars.

[Tesunie]

Jaroth Corbett, on 10 August 2025 - 01:57 PM, said:

... the Clans just attacked the IS for no reason and the Inner Sphere was the epitome of peace and prosperity and everyone was getting along singing kumbaya and there was no aggression.

I just wanted to touch on this part here for a moment, and even though I chopped the quote a bit I think context remains true.

The Clans did send out Wolf's Dragoons (WD) as a scouting force, to basically check on each house and report back the state of the IS and if it "needed to be invaded to be saved". The WD reported that the IS was in a stable state at the time, and the horrors the Clans thought was happening was not true. They believed in it so much, they stayed in the IS when recalled back to the Clans.

The real trigger that the Crusader Clans used to ignite the invasion was a liberal application of fear. This trigger was from a Comstar exploration ship jumping into the system of a Clan homeworld. The Crusader Clans used this to say "we need to invade them, before they invade us". Some Warden Clans agreed, causing the invasion to occur.

So, by all accounts, the IS was considered stable and "safe" for the most part by many of the Clans themselves. Perfect? No. But then again, it's already been pointed out that the Clans aren't perfect either. They aren't even better than the IS houses, they are just as bad in their own way.

I do believe that much of the hate for Clans comes from their introduction of powerful tech. Even in this game it was a powerful introduction, with Clan mechs being the top mechs in the game. Faction Warfare with IS vs Clans ended up with the Clans actively stomping the IS for the most part. And yes, back in the glory days of FP, the IS actually did try to unite against the Clans, shifting merc units willing to do so to different faction allegiances along the Clan boarder to attempt to stem the tide with bodies.

One of the more "famous" FP events was when many houses sent units to the Draconis Combine to help against the Clans, only for the Combine to then, as a faction, decide to use the mercs to hold the clans and then bleed out into Davion space. It was jokingly referred to as the "Great Ketchup Squeeze". Marik actually had found a "wormhole" up to the clan front in Combine space. Combine, for weeks, let Marik forces take a couple of their worlds to establish a clan front to help. Then... at the end of the "Ketchup Squeeze", they decided to shut down the wormhole... (Most of this stemmed from one mega unit in the Combine, who was filled with a bunch of trolls. They have all since been banned for their poor behavior last I knew.)

AKA: Just like in the books, the IS in this game did attempt to unite to fight the Clans. And just like in the books, Clan tech overpowered the IS forces. However, as it was 12v12 matches here, IS forces could not out number the Clans like the books, so the Clans stomped all day... till PGI reset the map and a lot of people lost interest in FP. And this is why a lot of people, at least in this game, might still have a sore spot for the Clans.

[Exarch Jonah Levin]

clan succ

[Your Pet Nova Cat]

me good and hard through my jorts

[Jaroth Corbett]

Tesunie, on 10 August 2025 - 05:55 PM, said:

I just wanted to touch on this part here for a moment, and even though I chopped the quote a bit I think context remains true.

The real trigger that the Crusader Clans used to ignite the invasion was a liberal application of fear. This trigger was from a Comstar exploration ship jumping into the system of a Clan homeworld. The Crusader Clans used this to say "we need to invade them, before they invade us". Some Warden Clans agreed, causing the invasion to occur.

So, by all accounts, the IS was considered stable and "safe" for the most part by many of the Clans themselves. Perfect? No. But then again, it's already been pointed out that the Clans aren't perfect either. They aren't even better than the IS houses, they are just as bad in their own way.

Incorrect. I covered this in detail in earlier posts so you'll need to go back a few pages. The Clans had absolutely no idea of the status of the IS apart from what the Dragoons had transmitted and that was of a violent, broken IS plagued by the Succession Wars. When they stopped sending back intel, the Clans would have had no information to go on to confirm either way what the status of the IS was. It was only the Outbound Light showing up in Jaguar space that gave a fresh idea of what the IS looked like and only the Jags knew that.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 10 August 2025 - 09:55 PM.

[Tesunie]

Jaroth Corbett, on 10 August 2025 - 09:54 PM, said:

Incorrect.

As I don't have those specific books or resources, I'm going to fall back onto the Wiki (and yes, I know, people can change it and some have done so to win arguments on these forums in the past). Namely, here. Excluding the voting from before intel on the IS was collected, we start with Intelser.

"In an effort to discover what had happened to the Inner Sphere during their exile, the Grand Council agreed to form Intelser, an intelligence service tasked with gathering data on the current situation. Its agents, masquerading as traders, managed to infiltrate a number of Periphery states outside the Inner Sphere. Relying on secondhand information what they reported back was confusing, but in broad strokes confirmed that the Inner Sphere had been devastated by the Succession Wars and was seemingly open to invasion. The Crusaders felt the time was right for their return."

The Wolf's Dragoon, or the Dragoon Compromise, "bringing with it valuable intelligence of an Inner Sphere which had been ravaged by war but was slowly making a recovery. This only intensified the debate between Wardens and Crusaders as the Dragoons continued their clandestine mission, fighting for all sides in the Third Succession War and reporting back to the Clans."

"Sensing betrayal, the Crusaders lobbied immediately for an invasion. The Wardens succeeded in staving this off until news of the Fourth Succession War, and later the War of 3039, reached the Clans. To the Crusaders, the formation of the Federated Commonwealth suggested the Inner Sphere risked reconstituting the Star League on their own, without the guiding hand of the Clans, while for the Wardens the fact that Great Houses still fought among each other meant a new Star League was a long way off and an invasion would require a large-scale occupation of the entire Inner Sphere, something for which the Clans were ill suited to undertake." (The Clans basically didn't want the IS to unite on their own, the Crusaders wanted to unite the IS first. Even though the reports said otherwise about the IS being 'not as bad as we thought'.)

And about the Outbound Light jumping into Huntress.
"The proverbial straw came in September 3048 when Outbound Light, a ComStar exploration ship, appeared suddenly over the Smoke Jaguar homeworld of Huntress. The ship was seized by the Smoke Jaguars, its crew interrogated and databanks sifted through, but Khan Leo Showers did not immediately bring the incident to the other Clans' attention. He waited until November to alert the Grand Council to what had taken place, presenting the information gained in such a way as to make several points: the Federated Commonwealth was growing in power and threatened to restore the Star League under their rule; the discovery of the Helm Memory Core and other Star League artifacts was helping the Inner Sphere to recover its lostech and erode one of the Clans' major advantages; and most distressingly, that ComStar was close to discovering the location of the Clan Homeworlds, leaving the Clans open to invasion^." (AKA: We are afraid the IS might become too hard to beat if they keep recovering tech at this rate, we need to invade now. Oh, and we need to invade before they invade us, as they 'know where we are'.)

"The thought of a reverse invasion by the Inner Sphere was unthinkable and horrifying to the Clan Khans, and the vote to invade was passed by all but Clan Wolf."


The Outbound Light was the trigger point for the invasion. The Dragoon's actually where delaying it, if not was originally about to stop the invasion completely with their reports. But, Smoke Jaguar used fear, politics and the manipulation of information to encourage the vote into a way he wanted, which was to invade.

Overall, I still stand by my original statement that the IS wasn't a horrible place to live in most places, and it wasn't as bad as the Clans wished it was. I'll also still stand with that, as bad as the IS is, the Clans are bad as well in their own way. No one here are the good guys. They are all shades of grey. The IS and the Clans. The Invasion wasn't about the state of the IS, but was more about the desire to invade and take the IS, making it into Clan, and a Clan made Star League, rather than an IS created Star League. Hence, many of the Clans did not recognize the 2nd Star League, as it was IS created.

Edited by Tesunie, 11 August 2025 - 07:05 AM.